Through a Juror's Eyes/What do those who haven't followed the case believe? (Merged)

[pcrum12]

This is my take at this point, as someone who has not followed the case until the trial began:

I am not liking Casey very much, but I do not like George much, either, so the defense's opening statement seems plausible to me.

I am little wary of the expert testimony. The can of air guy seems to be introducing a type of technology that hasn't been proven in many cases...and I am not excited about Dr. G's testimony. She seemed nervous to me and her reasons for declaring Caylee's death a homicide do not take into account the family dynamics mentioned in the defense's opening statement. ( I have never seen her show, so my only exposure to her is at this trial)

I am wondering why the prosecution did not ask Lee if he had molested his sister, the way they asked George. I am wondering if it means that Lee has confessed to this.

I am definitely picking up that Casey does not have such a great team of lawyers...I am going to give her extra points to make up for his deficits.

I have only heard that she was a good mother, so I am believing the death was an accident. But I am mystified about all the lying, and believe there is something terribly wrong with her, and that I want to hear more about her parenting.

-----------------------------------------------------

However, as a member of Websleuths I have read a lot more than the jurors know, and I believe she did kill her daughter deliberately. Time will tell if the prosecution is going to share the information I know now with the jury.

Anybody who thinks this is a slam-dunk for the prosecution does not remember the OJ trial. At the end of the prosecution's presentation, it seemed impossible that OJ would not get the death penalty. As the defense presented its case, things began to look a little different. By the time the jury went to deliberate it felt like about a 75/25 chance he would be found guilty, although most of us felt he WAS guilty. When the jury came back with the verdict, we were shocked.

I really agree with most of your post.

I too am leary of Dr. Voss and his posturing. He reminds me of an inventor of crazy stuff in an old movie lol. He came across to me as own of those "no one is smarter than me" people. lol. And, I just can't buy what he is selling yet without further research and by other researchers to confirm theory. Hope that made some sense.

As for Dr. G's testimony, I too, have never watched her show. My immediate reaction to her was that of a celebrity. And agree, she did NOT take into account the dysfuntion inside that home. She states very defensively that what lead to homicide as the manner of death was 1 - child not reported missing, 2 - child found in plastic bags hidden, and 3 - the duct tape. 2 of the 3 was accessable to GA as well as ICA or for that matter CA lol. And if ICA was a victim of incest it is very plausable that ICA did follow directions from her abuser. I'm not saying this happened, I'm just saying there is reasonable doubt.

I'm going with accident that snowballed. Maybe with GA's help but not ruling out that ICA did the coverup on her own and laying blame on her incest abuser to get even. I have literally went back and forth on accident vs murder so I may change my mind tomorrow lol.

One thing I did want to correct is that OJ was never facing the death penalty. The DA made that decision very early on that they would not seek it.

Sorry for rambling on.

 

[tsitra01]

Everything ICA said was a lie but the DT now wants the jury to believe her newest story of sexual abuse from dad and brother. While this family seemed to have a very contentious relationship with each other, I don't think it is an excuse for Casey murdering her child. She never had to be responsible for her actions. CA could have put a stop to this a long time ago but did nothing. If she attempted To confront her, she would blow and she would back off not wanting to upset the princess (spoiled brat)

It doesn't have to be some disease or awful hidden family problem that damaged her to the extent that she murdered her daughter. She could be a spoiled jealous bratty bitsch.

Right now she has a new family to coddle her and whisper comforting messages in her ear but with luck and an excellent Pro. Team she will be convicted and for the first time in her life her days of being a liar, thief and murderer will come to an end. IMO

 

[mrsu]

I have watched nearly every day, every hour of the trial, however I had not much followed the case until now. I had heard about it, and the lie about Zanny, but didn't know how long it was before she was found or any other circumstances.

I think the State has done an exceptional job for Caylee. I can say before all of it started I thought, "she probably did it" just after knowing Zanny never existed and nothing was reported. I would say I am about 90% convinced Casey is guilty. It's funny I was just talking to my neighbor last night and was saying it will be interesting to see if my thoughts change when the DT calls their witnesses.

Some thoughts I've had since the trial started:
- Had Casey been chloroforming Caylee for months and leaving her in her car? I just can't forget when Ricardo said he woke up that one night and Caylee and Casey were gone. When he woke up in the morning, Casey was there but Caylee was not. When he asked where Caylee was Casey said she had taken her to her mom. However, we now know that Caylee was not with Cindy...where was she??????

- I do believe the trip to Puerto Rico kind of started the ball rolling in all this. I think she was really wanting to go, especially because her BF was going. When Cindy said she wouldn't watch Caylee I think it really angered Casey and she realized how much of an "inconvenience" Caylee was. Not sure what to make of the chloroform searches other than they took place around the PR trip when her friends were there and she was not. Do we know if the chloroform searches happened BEFORE the night Ricardo woke up and Caylee was gone??

- I don't believe George molested Casey, and don't believe he has anything to do with a cover up. I think that because of his background as a police officer, he may have suspected something had happened with Caylee, but his heart wanted to believe that his own daughter would never be capable of something like that.

- I don't think Cindy is guilty of anything but being blindsided by the fact that her daughter is a sociopath. I can't imagine how hard that would be and how much guilt she feels. I think she very much feels if she would have agreed to watch Caylee some of the times she was asked, Caylee might still be here.

- Regardless of the family dynamics, I personally couldn't imagine what it would be like to lose your granddaughter and then find out that your own child could be this much of a monster and you never saw it.

- I'm not sure what to think of Lee. I don't think he had a role in the disappearance, but I'm not convinced he didn't sexually abuse Casey. Like someone asked above, why wasn't he asked that?

- I'm very interested to hear more about Roy Kronk. I don't know much about him, but will say the DT has made me want to look more into him. I also wonder how he came upon the body after so many searchers missed it. From the pics it looked like even the garbage bag was barely visible yet someone going for a pee notices it? How long did he know about it before he reported it? First in Aug...why wasn't it followed up on? One would think they would be all over that since it was not too long after she was missing. Then again in Dec.? What was he doing all those months? And the weird comments to his son?

- With the above said, I do not buy that Roy found the body and placed it there, BUT the events surrounding it all, do make him seem suspicious.

- I do believe Caylee was in the trunk until the smell got too strong, then she was dumped. I'm curious about the decomp that was found in the Anthony's backyard and why she would have her back there. Maybe that's where she bagged her up? Why would she remove her from the trunk to do that?

- I'm not 100% it was intentional. My thought is this. Let's say she had been chloroforming Caylee and keeping her in the trunk for short times while she was out with her friends. I think it could have been that she chloroformed her and put a piece of duct tape over just her mouth so in the event that she woke up, she couldn't scream. She could have wrapped it around her head so she wouldn't just be able to pull the strip off her mouth. I think maybe this time she didn't wake up and Casey panicked. She couldn't call 911 because obviously she had chloroformed her kid and that would be found.

- If it was intentional, I still wonder how she did it. Suffocation by duct tape? If that's the case, there is really no need for chloroform.

As of right now, with some of the questions above, I do not think I could convict beyond a reasonable doubt. YET! It is SUCH a shame that her body was not found sooner. I feel like I am a very logical person who thinks with my "head" rather than my "heart" in cases like this. I definitely believe the science of it all, but I wish we had a little bit more that pointed to premeditation by Casey and it makes me sad to say that. :/

HOWEVER, all that said, I do believe the State's case MUCH MORE than what the defense has presented so far. IMO the DT will have to do a flawless job of explaining the scenario and how exactly Kronk came across the body etc. If it's something stupid like George paid him off, no way the Jury will buy that. I'm not sure Baez is capable of that. :loser:

I also think it would be fascinating to have the jury take a poll each week that asks if they think guilty or innocent and see how their opinions change (if ever) over the course of the trial. I know it would never happen, but I can't help but wonder.

Also, for the record, I am 100% TEAM CAYLEE. :blowkiss:

I am also one of those people who 48 HOURS MYSTERY drives absolutely batty and I don't know if I could truly convict someone without having a little bit of doubt. That scares me...maybe there is someone on the jury like that too?

 

[Never4GetCaylee]

Anybody who thinks this is a slam-dunk for the prosecution does not remember the OJ trial. At the end of the prosecution's presentation, it seemed impossible that OJ would not get the death penalty. As the defense presented its case, things began to look a little different. By the time the jury went to deliberate it felt like about a 75/25 chance he would be found guilty, although most of us felt he WAS guilty. When the jury came back with the verdict, we were shocked.

I did not follow the OJ trial as closely as this, but I do remember that there were ALOT of people out there saying he was innocent. Outside of the courthouse there were two sides...one yelling to set him free, the other to give him the death penalty. I do not see the "she's innocent" side at allfor ICA. I read alot of comments on news websites and Facebook and it's very, very rare to see someone post that they think she innocent or that she's being railroaded like some people thought OJ was.

 

[AbbieNormal]

I am on Team Caylee too and have been since day 31. I have made my family question my sanity (only half kidding) over three years of me diligently following this, reading thousands of pages from doc dumps, looked at all the pics of beautiful Caylee, etc. I HAVE NO REASONABLE DOUBT WHATSOEVER. I consider myself "informed" so my belief that she killed caylee w/ out any help at all, laid her body in the yard at some point after death (dogs hits by playhouse). She drove around with her baby in the trunk of her car- deceased- and eventually did some creative bagging and then threw Caylee away and moved on with life quickly. Parties, sleeping with guys, stealing from friends and family....
Oh Casey, please tell us you were NOT considering burying your precious daughter in her playhouse. To rot and decompose in the very spot she spent so much time playing and pretending. Unthinkable.

I would vote GUILTY and then would vote for DP. I hope the jurors do the same.

I do not think shes mentally ill however I do think after she killed Caylee (through suffocation via duct tape or suffocation with a plastic bag, I do not believe the chloroform was significant at all and she didn't drug her) she had some sort of fuge state due to the shock of what she had done.

I feel so bad for George and Cindy now, where before the trial I really thought I hated them almost as much as I hated Casey.

I am thoroughly disgusted with Casey's fake crying, her fake emotional drama when pics of her daughters skeleton is shown. Any tears she sheds are for herself and herself only.

I am sort of surprised to see Dr Drew and Joy Behar get into the case on their shows.
I am VERY disappointed in HLN, at first I thought they were really "stepping up" to cover what lame TruTv would not...the timespan from 3pm (to 5pm) when TruTV starts their ridiculous "world's craziest" etc shows and stops airing the trial...HLN stepped in a for the first day or so I was happy to be continuing to watch it on TV. HLN announced on Saturdays they would air court from 9am to 1pm. BUT what I got this week from HLN was a few minutes of testimony then a bunch of commercials then back to 5 minutes of testimony, some TH's, more commercials. To the point yesterday I saw very LITTLE testimony. I was down one computer until I fixed this one this AM, so livestream was my only recourse. But livestream on a variety of channels was crappy too, kept 'going out' and was a real PIA to watch. Very frustrating.

JMO and my :twocents:

 

[Macushla]

I'm sure someone will correct me if my memory is wrong but.....I seem to remember Kronk saying something like he nudged or kicked the bag and the skull rolled out. However, I think that couldn't have happened because we now know that the skull was partially embedded in the soil. The only explanation I can think of for the skull to have rolled out of the bag is that it happened a lot earlier and the bag was moved. This worries me because I think this is where the defense is going.

I'm not a newbie to all this and I admit to feeling that something is not quite as it was presented with Mr. Kronk. Hope I'm wrong.

BBM: If I am remembering correctly the Investigator said the skull was partially embedded in the leaf debris. In fact I think he made a point of saying it was not embedded in the soil, just in the leaf debris.

 

[costalpilot]

the wife has not followed the case at all. In fact, she is not fond of it, due to my, as she sees it, spending too much time on it. Things really got heated during opening arguments because the wife felt I should have been doing something besides sitting in front of a computer. while I sympathesized and, even, agreed, I could not tear myself away.

anyways, she has not followed the case at all.

but she recently got an ipad and has been messing with it, and one site she goes to has a daily trial review and poll of its readers as to what they think the evidence of the day showed.

Last night was the first time the wife has watched anything about the trial, not to mention the the trial itself. I showed her Dr G's cross.

Based on the trial reviews she has got from the above mentioned site, and the daily polls its readers have responded to: the wife's comment is, "she's toast."

as to Dr G's cross: she thought cm was a fool.

 

[citigirl]

Thanks for correcting me about OJ not facing the death penalty, pcrum.

Kathyn, my concern is that if you question Dr. G's reasons for declaring Caylee's death a homicide (because of the "fantasy world" argument, which is supported by all the lies and Lee's possible molestation of Casey), you don't get to aggravated child abuse. Which means she walks or has a hung jury.

The chloroform issue is hanging out there, but the prosecution has not said much about the possibility of Casey chloroforming Caylee on other nights. That one example Ricardo described was very iffy...Cindy just says she doesn't remember Casey bringing Caylee home that night. If I am a juror, I am not going to find Casey guilty of aggravated child abuse and possible Death Penalty over that one night, that Cindy is not sure about.

So, as a juror, I am waiting to hear 1. more from Lee, 2. more from George, who I don't like and not sure I believe 3. An understanding of what the state thinks was done with the chloroform 4. Someone to tell me there was ever a problem with Casey's parenting

 

[D96s]

This is my take at this point, as someone who has not followed the case until the trial began:

I am not liking Casey very much, but I do not like George much, either, so the defense's opening statement seems plausible to me.

I am little wary of the expert testimony. The can of air guy seems to be introducing a type of technology that hasn't been proven in many cases...and I am not excited about Dr. G's testimony. She seemed nervous to me and her reasons for declaring Caylee's death a homicide do not take into account the family dynamics mentioned in the defense's opening statement. ( I have never seen her show, so my only exposure to her is at this trial)

I am wondering why the prosecution did not ask Lee if he had molested his sister, the way they asked George. I am wondering if it means that Lee has confessed to this.

I am definitely picking up that Casey does not have such a great team of lawyers...I am going to give her extra points to make up for his deficits.

I have only heard that she was a good mother, so I am believing the death was an accident. But I am mystified about all the lying, and believe there is something terribly wrong with her, and that I want to hear more about her parenting.

-----------------------------------------------------

However, as a member of Websleuths I have read a lot more than the jurors know, and I believe she did kill her daughter deliberately. Time will tell if the prosecution is going to share the information I know now with the jury.

Anybody who thinks this is a slam-dunk for the prosecution does not remember the OJ trial. At the end of the prosecution's presentation, it seemed impossible that OJ would not get the death penalty. As the defense presented its case, things began to look a little different. By the time the jury went to deliberate it felt like about a 75/25 chance he would be found guilty, although most of us felt he WAS guilty. When the jury came back with the verdict, we were shocked.

Above bolded by me ... by all accounts Susan Smith was a good mother too. And she deliberately and coldly killed her children. If you can't explain that, you can't give that "good mother" defense to Casey.

 

[cluciano63]

If I am a juror, I still want to hear the whole story about Roy Krunk, even if it does not change who killed Caylee, in my mind. The whole bit about him sort of finding her in August and then again in December is just plain weird. It would continue to bother me until it is cleared up.

 

[D96s]

I really agree with most of your post.

I too am leary of Dr. Voss and his posturing. He reminds me of an inventor of crazy stuff in an old movie lol. He came across to me as own of those "no one is smarter than me" people. lol. And, I just can't buy what he is selling yet without further research and by other researchers to confirm theory. Hope that made some sense.

As for Dr. G's testimony, I too, have never watched her show. My immediate reaction to her was that of a celebrity. And agree, she did NOT take into account the dysfuntion inside that home. She states very defensively that what lead to homicide as the manner of death was 1 - child not reported missing, 2 - child found in plastic bags hidden, and 3 - the duct tape. 2 of the 3 was accessable to GA as well as ICA or for that matter CA lol. And if ICA was a victim of incest it is very plausable that ICA did follow directions from her abuser. I'm not saying this happened, I'm just saying there is reasonable doubt.

I'm going with accident that snowballed. Maybe with GA's help but not ruling out that ICA did the coverup on her own and laying blame on her incest abuser to get even. I have literally went back and forth on accident vs murder so I may change my mind tomorrow lol.

One thing I did want to correct is that OJ was never facing the death penalty. The DA made that decision very early on that they would not seek it.

Sorry for rambling on.

Dr. G. also states catagorically that in 100% of the cases of drowned children (which is a common accurance in Florida - also her quote) that have come across hee morgue, 911 was called. No matter how long after the fact - or how long the child has been in the water. That is because a loving parent always holds onto the hope that their child can be revived (and in many cases they are). 100% of the cases. That is powerful. The defense wants us to believe that the ONLY time those statistics were bucked happened with both George and Casey? I don't think I could calulate the odds. George loved that little baby as much as Cindy. I have never doubted that. Ever. In all the videos I've seen of them interacting he has been nothing but a loving father and Grandfather (even by Casey's admission) and his pain over losing that baby is palpable. I have no doubt he would have immediately called 911. He would have no reason not to.

 

[Nefriahaia]

My husband the Luddite has not been following the case and informed me that ICA's parents are guilty. I think he may be just messing with me though, because when he says things like that I puff up and hiss at him, and he likes to get me going.

 

[citigirl]

Above bolded by me ... by all accounts Susan Smith was a good mother too. And she deliberately and coldly killed her children. If you can't explain that, you can't give that "good mother" defense to Casey.

D9, I know there is other evidence out there that she is not a good mother. But if I am a juror and I did not follow the Susan Smith trial, I am trying to reconcile the "good mother" with the chick sitting in the defendant's chair who chloroformed and duct taped her baby. I am not going to give her a finding that could result in the death penalty if the drowning were possibly an accident.

The state needs to give me some kind of evidence that something was amiss between Casey and her baby. Otherwise, I am going to believe Cindy, who lived with them. (Cindy is very believable if you have not seen her in action elsewhere...which I have not, but I believe the WSers I trust who say she was outrageous).

 

[luv]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjGLVbG6R44"]YouTube - ‪Casey Anthony Laughs During Testimony (06.12.11)‬‏[/ame]

 

[GeekyGirl]

Wow, this thread makes for interesting reading! Just wanted to add my perspective as someone who hasn't been following the case until now. I wasn't completely in the dark, as I did read a lot of the initial news coverage in 2008, but truthfully it just kind of fell of my radar up here in North Carolina. When I heard the trial was starting, I planned on watching it, but I ended up on jury duty here instead and was told to stay away from the news in general. Luckily that ended Friday, and I finally got the chance today to catch up on the story. Here are my initial impressions...

-Caylee Anthony's death almost certainly involved some sort of criminal or suspicious activity. I don't buy the accidental drowning theory, but given the evidence presented, I can't say that I believe, beyond a reasonable doubt, that her death was premeditated. Initially, the internet searches had me screaming "she planned it!" but then it occurred to me that I look up all kinds of crazy things. Admittedly, not chloroform or neck breaking until today (what can I say, curiosity got the better of me,I wanted to see what Google had to offer on the subjects ) but it's still circumstantial, and not quite enough proof for me to say that Casey had intent, much less a plan. If the cause of death could definitively be stated as a broken neck, maybe, but as others have pointed out, the chloroform could have been intended to be used as a method of sedating the poor girl.

-The Anthony family in general is pretty dysfunctional. The sexual abuse story doesn't really ring true to me, and even if it did, I'm not sure what bearing that would have on the facts of the case... That being said, I get the impression that these people (the Anthony's) live in a world where unpleasant situations are to be avoided at all costs, even if that means denying the obvious (or at least probable) reality. Casey, IMO, takes this to the nth degree, but George and Cindy seem, to me, to have displayed this behavior throughout. It makes it hard to judge if they were involved, and if so to what degree, or if they just suspected that their daughter did something horrible but couldn't deal with the fact that their own child could be capable of such a horrific act. The latter could cause a tremendous sense of responsibility and survivor's guilt. I'm honestly torn here, because their actions after the fact were so illogical that with all the accusations, contradictions and finger pointing, it's so hard to judge the motivations for their actions.

-FWIW My impression of Casey Anthony is that she is definitely a selfish, spoiled, immature young woman. I've seen her labeled as sociopathic, or psychopathic and while I'm normally leery of these terms, I'm not entirely unconvinced they don't apply here. Seems to me she'd score pretty high on the Hare checklist, but I just got done reading "The psychopath test", so I'm probably pretty biased at the moment.

-As I said above, I'm not entirely convinced that the prosecution has presented a rock solid case for murder, much less first degree murder. I'm nagged by the thought that if this was premeditated, it was a really, really lousy plan. Not that it rules out preplanning, but a lot of the aftermath makes more sense to me if the death was the result of an overdose or something like that, as opposed to a deliberate intent to kill her. I suppose one could argue that an untrained person administering chloroform to a child could be considered knowingly creating a deadly situation, but without definitive proof of the cause of death, it might be a tough sell, if you're going by the letter of the law. (Side note, err.. Rather, side question... Am I correct in thinking Florida has a felony murder rule? Is that an option here? I think I could be persuaded that prosecution has at least come close to meeting the burden of proof for that...)
Of course, maybe Casey is just that dumb, and she thought she could lie her way out of it, or that everyone would just magically ignore the fact that her daughter had disappeared. *Sigh* The aftermath also tends to make me believe that George wasn't involved in the death and/or the coverup, or at least if he was involved in the coverup, it wasn't until much later. Maybe I'm naive, but I just have to believe that a former homicide detective would know how to work the system better, and would have come up with a more plausible story.

The TL,DR version... I think Caylee's death was the result of foul play, my gut says Casey caused it, but I'm on the fence as to whether she intended to. The Anthony family is messed up, but I'm not sure how messed up or involved they were. Finally, actual guilt or innocence aside, at this point in the trial, I don't think a murder conviction is a slam dunk.

 

[mibright]

I am trying to wrap my head around this all morning. I have thought ICA was guilty from the first time I saw her and her facial expression/body language combined with circumstances just seemed wrong.

So far the DT has issued 1. accidental drowning, 2. help from GA, and 3. abuse. I don't believe any of these have been substantiated (not even #1 with the duct tape).

However, it seems that the prosecutors points have been 1. ICA lies and 2. information on decomp/recovery site. Where are they proving that ICA murdered her kid?

Perhaps I am missing some arguments since I am only partially listening to this while I am at work and reading summary articles. Maybe someone can shed some light?

 

[norest4thewicked]

I was shocked last Saturday when my husband told me that my mother-in-law (his mother) knew absolutely nothing about Casey Anthony. She is in her mid 60's, quite active, and lives in Houston. She had no clue who she was or what she had done. I was really surprised, but I guess there must be more than a few out there like her. I just thought it was weird.

 

[GeekyGirl]

It's funny how that works, isn't it? I remember feeling the same way about my friends and coworkers during the Maria Lauterbach investigation/Cesar Lauren trial was going on up here. I had friends from out of state who followed the case closely, but I only had one or two people in my local circle who paid attention to it. Although Camp Lejeune is a huge base, the Marine Corps community is pretty tight and Jacksonville, NC is still a pretty small town, so I was kind of shocked. I think it has a lot to do with the way we get our news and information these days. Between the internet news sites, twitter, 500 cable channels, etc, it's so easy to pick and choose what interests you, and tune out the rest. Add to that the fact that there was so much going on between mid 2008 to early 2009 with the election and the economy, that Caylee's story may have been easily skipped over by some in favor of news that was more relevant to their personal situation. As I said above, I remember the initial story and I was intrigued by it, but there were so many other things going on in my life, that I never really kept up.

That being said, after writing my initial post yesterday, I ventured on to other threads in this forum and got sucked down the rabbit hole. It was 4 am before I finally put down the iPad and fell asleep.

 

[sappysoul]

I followed this case fairly closely when the news first came out about Caylee missing. I followed it until Caylee's remains were found and just paid passing interest to it until the beginning of testimony in the trial. Thus, I was not familiar with the evidence released over that time. Based on the evidence I've seen in the state's case I believe Casey is guilty. I also think the defense's explanation of events does more (at this point, before they present their evidence) to push me toward guilt than innocence. It's just too far fetched IMO. However, for whatever reason I'm hung up on the chloroform. We know Casey visited a site on making chloroform 84 times and we know evidence of chloroform was found in the trunk. But how did she get/make the chloroform? How hard is it either buy or make it? Is there any evidence whatsoever she purchased or had access to the ingredients she would need? Is there any evidence she bought, borrowed or stole any chloroform? If the state could present any evidence along those lines it would be a slam dunk for me.

 

[goldenlover]

I also think in my gut that Casey somehow caused the death, but I do not think the state has proven it beyond a reasonable doubt that it was premeditated murder..which they must prove beyond a reasonable doubt in order to get a DP or LWOP sentence. If I were on the jury, I would have a difficult time coming to that conclusion based on the evidence the state has provided - which is the only evidence they are supposed to weigh. This is not a slam dunk case.