TH's polygraphs

[eyes4crime]

SBM

It's not just body language and demeanour that LE looks at, it's the actual information you give in the pre-machine part of the process as well.

The commonest form of polygraph is where the interviewer asks a series of questions. Some are just filler questions, others are questions that are relevant to the investigation and the third category are control questions. Control questions are questions that the interviewer assumes everyone lies in response to.

The control question prep actually yields more investigative leads than the polygraph in many cases.

For example, one common control question is "have you ever lied in order to gain a benefit for yourself?" Well, duh. Almost everyone has! An honest person will reply during the test prep, well, uh, yeah, actually. So then the interviewer asks them to detail those past lies. They're friendly, they're helpful, they're just helping you pass the test.

Well, not just helping you pass the test. They're also gathering information about you and it's exactly the sort of information you would normally wish to hide from others. The interviewer is hoping the subject will forget the difference between a police interview and a confessional booth.



Same thing in LE exams. LE usually spends way more time on the test prep because that's where they're gathering all the interesting information.



It sounds like it to me because it has been widely reported that she showed up but walked out before they actually hooked her up.

BBM

Wonder how much psychology a polygrapher has to interpret gathered information from a subject? Important to remember that the subject is under duress, perhaps, in the midst of a traumatic crisis - what's the training for such interpretation? moo

Also, wonder if they have even one course in pharmacology, addiction, and disease states? moo

ETA: Maybe Terri walked out because she saw the same polygrapher was giving the poly as in her first failed test. Always a possibility. I'm sure there are times when good repore just doesn't exist. moo mho

 

[Wrinkles]

--- snipped ---
I live in Illinois and have followed the Riley Fox case for 5 years. I'm horrified over the brutal rape and murder of 3yo Riley and perhaps, just as horrified, over what happened to Keven, Riley's father. Pretty sure that case has forever changed the way I would go about proving my innocence.

Please take good care of your very beautiful and loving heart! :heart:

Greetings Eyes,

Thanks for your kindness...and thanks for your insight, thoughts and sharing your experience per the Riley Fox case. I can appreciate what you are saying though I have not studied the Riley Fox case. I think that we both (all of us) might agree that we can all say almost anything about what we might do given a particular circumstance (such as I did), but until we are actually in that circumstance, the actual truth of our "might" cannot be known.

Thinking about your message and whether I was being honest with myself in writing what I "might do" jogged a memory I have long since tucked away. Approx. 37 years ago, my 18 month old son disappeared. One minute he was happily consumed with playing in the front of our house with his 3 year old sister (as usual), not much longer (with my eyes off of him) he was gone. I won't go into the whole story -- suffice to say that for the 30 minutes that my son was missing, my life was a frenzied, gasping, panicked hell. Those 30 minutes felt like an eternity. I could barely tear myself away from running every direction looking for him, screaming for him, listening for him, to take the time to go inside the house to call the police for help (we had no cell phones or cordless phones back then.) I couldn't even stand the thought that I might be standing in the relative security of our house to make the important call to the police while my baby was in imminent danger somewhere else and I was not ACTIVELY looking for him myself -- me, his protector, me the one responsible.

Fortunately, by the time I could tear myself away from the search to call the police, a neighbor a "long country block away" had found my son in their yard, laying on top of their collie dog snuggling it (they also found a puppy, it was thought that the puppy wandered into our yard and my son must have toddled after it until they reached the collie with whom he chose to stay -- thank you Lord!) A local state policeman was there picking up my baby at the time I called.

All to say -- I have learned from more than one life event that there are times when I go into a type of animal instinct zone when panicked. I do not eat, drink, rest or sleep until I pursue or deal with what I must. My brain permits few "complex" thoughts outside of the limited ones needed for the pursuit. Finally, based on my experience with myself, I cannot imagine that I would have the slightest bit of wisdom to think of "my own skin" (LDT) -- even if that were foolish for all manner of other responsible reason -- given a missing child or a child in danger. In fact, I am now remembering the day that I nearly drowned trying to save a little girl (one I did not know), one drowning in a public pool. It didn't matter that the lifeguard was somewhat nearby and called for help, he was not near enough to keep that child from going under another time, I was -- I couldn't stand by and let her go down again, possibly sucking in water -- I knew I was a strong swimmer, I had to do something NOW! I jumped in to help the child and had to work for that child's life until someone better came along, and man did I have to work. I had never learned water rescue technique, wish I had -- when I reached that poor panicked child she started groping me and taking us both down (yikes, that was scary). For lack of knowledge of a better way, I had to untangle myself from that child and get beneath her, underwater, pushing and keeping her face to air while trying to swim her to the side of the pool and something to grab. I hoped the lifeguard would arrive soon, I hoped I would survive until then. Thank God help arrived -- I feel sure that I could have died trying to save that child. Granted, I suppose that some could think I was stupid for doing that, I had two children that needed me to raise them -- two of them (swimmers) at that pool -- how dare I risk my life and leave them motherless just because another child was drowning, how thoughtless of me -- yes, I admit I was thoughtless except for thinking of that one child at the time.

I can't say that I would do anything different today...its not in my animalistic make up. I can't say that I would do anything different than Kaine, Desiree and detective Tony (who is probably fairly well clued in about LDTs) did that day -- I wouldn't call an attorney to represent me before considering an LDT -- I would take it.

Hmmm...does anyone think that Tony, with all of his LE knowledge and when considering his wife and he taking an LDT said, "Wait, we need to contact our attorney first." Hmmm.

 

[Wrinkles]

Wouldn't you want to find out first what the consequences of not taking the polygraph would be?

--- snipped ---

Hello GrainneDhu,

Thanks for your thoughtful message.

To answer, I must say (in light of my last message in this thread), I probably would not have given one iota of thought to the consequences of taking a polygraph. Probably hopefully or stupidly, I would have expected I would pass it, thinking, now lets move to finding my child.

What might Kaine, Desiree and Tony have thought when asked to take a polygraph -- they did.

 

[wondering1]

Greetings Eyes,

suffice to say that for the 30 minutes that my son was missing, my life was a frenzied, gasping, panicked hell.

Yep, ITA. And that's what my impressions are based on, too. I think I already posted here that each of my children has failed to arrive home from school or a friend's on one occasion each. And my son, at 5, got lost at the beach (chasing Pelicans, thank goodness) at dusk. In each case, I couldn't form a thought or do anything but frantically run from place to place asking anyone and everyone had they seen them, please help me. In one case, I had apparently spent some time standing barefoot in a small pile of broken glass at the edge of the road. It wasn't until after my child was found that I even noticed my feet were cut and bleeding.

LDT, I'm all over it...get it over with before my head explodes and then go FIND MY KID!!!!

eta: and I'm one of the most laid back parents I know, truly. Broken bones, stitches, risk-taking, etc. no problem. Missing? that's a whole 'nother story

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM

Wonder how much psychology a polygrapher has to interpret gathered information from a subject? Important to remember that the subject is under duress, perhaps, in the midst of a traumatic crisis - what's the training for such interpretation? moo

Prerequisites vary from state to state and from job to job.

The interpretation of the information gathered during the prep part of the process is usually not solely interpreted by the examiner alone. They turn over the tapes of the interview to the investigator(s) and let them figure it out.

The examiner interprets the results of the part of the exam where the subject is actually hooked up. Their interpretation of the various graphs is based on their training and experience.

Also, wonder if they have even one course in pharmacology, addiction, and disease states? moo

I looked at the website for the American Polygraph Association (one of the leading accreditation organisations) and chose the first school off their list of accredited schools. Here's the link that shows that particular school's entrance requirements and curriculum:

http://www.azpolygraphschool.com/General Information.htm

The training itself is 320 hours. And by that, my strong impression is that they mean actual classroom hours, not the way many universities count hours as a total of the hours spent in one week during the course.

I do know that many polygraphs require a witnessed urine sample be taken immediately before the examination.

ETA: Maybe Terri walked out because she saw the same polygrapher was giving the poly as in her first failed test. Always a possibility. I'm sure there are times when good repore just doesn't exist. moo mho

That is possible.

 

[Chewy]

kaine said the first red flag was she failed the first test, which is suprising to me. I wouldn't start doubting my husband over that for one thing. 2. she was really vocal about it, I wonder what he means by that. I wish I could of heard what she was saying. I just don't get these polys, I have heard some people fail who are innocent or pass when guilty. I wonder when they will create something more accurate or if thats even possible.

Thank you for posting what I've been thinking but couldn't put my finger on.

The fact that she told everyone she failed the poly is either really clever or really dumb.

Also this guy seems like this is a vengeful attack here. He's pinning it right on it and ruining HER life. He's made her homeless, taken away all her children and ruined her reputation. If she's not guilty then .........hmm why would he do that? What better way to get even with her for her sexcapades.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Greetings Eyes,

Thanks for your kindness...and thanks for your insight, thoughts and sharing your experience per the Riley Fox case. I can appreciate what you are saying though I have not studied the Riley Fox case. I think that we both (all of us) might agree that we can all say almost anything about what we might do given a particular circumstance (such as I did), but until we are actually in that circumstance, the actual truth of our "might" cannot be known.

Also, it's easy to write out the possible course of action as speculation but when you're actually in the situation, your own actions start to change in response to the information you gather.

For example, if your child wanders away, you might think you'd search in a spiral out from their last known location and carefully evaluate any leads you were given before blindly following them.

But then it actually happens and right away, someone says, honestly but mistakenly "I thought I saw a small child wearing a blue T-shirt headed that way."

You'd probably head off that way if your kid was wearing a blue T-shirt.

And so on. So much for your spiralling out plan.

All to say -- I have learned from more than one life event that there are times when I go into a type of animal instinct zone when panicked. I do not eat, drink, rest or sleep until I pursue or deal with what I must. My brain permits few "complex" thoughts outside of the limited ones needed for the pursuit. Finally, based on my experience with myself, I cannot imagine that I would have the slightest bit of wisdom to think of "my own skin" (LDT) -- even if that were foolish for all manner of other responsible reason -- given a missing child or a child in danger.

SBM

How long does that state of animal panic last?

A few years ago, my service dog went missing. I had been in the hospital for eye surgery and our best guess is that he took off looking for me (he excels in devoted, that's for sure!). I checked myself out AMA and started the hunt that night.

It took ten long days before he found me again. I didn't find him, believe me--he spent ten days on the lam, avoiding contact with adult human beings but distributing kisses to the kids in the area he was hunting me. It was when I finally managed to put myself in a position so he could hear me call him that he came running to me. It was completely clear that in his mind, he found me and not the other way around.

I learned from that experience that for me, blind animalistic panic only lasts for about two hours, tops. After that, my body runs out of adrenaline and I am forced to start using my brains again.

That experience also taught me that kids have a life that parallels but is not the same as their parents' lives. I got calls for a couple weeks after we were reunited from people whose kids mentioned casually that they had previously seen "that dog on TV." I had deliberately kept one obvious detail about his appearance to myself to help me filter tips and almost all of those kids nailed it. They really did see him but had no reason to mention it for up to a month.

Hmmm...does anyone think that Tony, with all of his LE knowledge and when considering his wife and he taking an LDT said, "Wait, we need to contact our attorney first." Hmmm.

SBM

As a police detective, I'm pretty sure that TY has the knowledge needed to beat a polygraph. It's widely available and, judging from my own experience, most police officers know all about it. It's not so much doing anything internally like biting your tongue (often suggested), it's more knowing how the questions will be constructed and which questions to deliberately lie in response (it's the control questions).

I've known a couple people who passed job and security clearance polygraphs when their answers to certain questions pertaining to the use of recreational substances in their private life should have failed them. Successfully passing polygraphs has been a feature in most of the recent spy cases, too.

I'm not saying that TY in any way deliberately "threw" the polygraph he took, just saying that it would have been a trivial matter for him to do so.

As has been revealed by DY in her interviews last week, DY and TY were both at work on 4 June 2010. They already had good alibis for themselves, so they were unlikely to become suspects.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thank you for posting what I've been thinking but couldn't put my finger on.

The fact that she told everyone she failed the poly is either really clever or really dumb.

Also this guy seems like this is a vengeful attack here. He's pinning it right on it and ruining HER life. He's made her homeless, taken away all her children and ruined her reputation. If she's not guilty then .........hmm why would he do that? What better way to get even with her for her sexcapades.

To be fair, I know I tend to think the worst of people that I, well, think the worst of.

KH may very well feel like he's on a public safety crusade by revealing this woman as a danger to the rest of society. Not specifically to ruin TMH's life but to protect anyone else from her.

He may well feel that MC is more of a victim than a rival.

 

[Chewy]

To be fair, I know I tend to think the worst of people that I, well, think the worst of.

KH may very well feel like he's on a public safety crusade by revealing this woman as a danger to the rest of society. Not specifically to ruin TMH's life but to protect anyone else from her.

He may well feel that MC is more of a victim than a rival.

That's a good point.


I have been really doubting this guy lately. I was flipping through pictures of him at the courthouse I presume where he showed up in a tee shirt and sneakers to "show" how he needed to get back in the house since he didn't have appropriate clothes for court. I thought, how hard is it to go to Target and pick up a pair of slacks and a polo shirt so that you at least look presentable.

I don't like manipulation> I like straight up honesty.

Then again if he did feel that he was totally duped I could see him wanting to destroy this woman.

 

[wondering1]

For example, if your child wanders away, you might think you'd search in a spiral out from their last known location and carefully evaluate any leads you were given before blindly following them.

How long does that state of animal panic last?

rsbm

Personally, I had no plan, so there was nothing to go out the window. A plan would have required coherent thought, which I absolutely did not have.

How long would it have lasted? I'm thinking the panic, manic phase would have lasted 24-48 hours. Until every last reasonable hope would have been elimated. After that, I would have needed to be sedated for at least another week, or more, and my life would NEVER, EVER, EVER be the same. I can tell you the absolute last thing I'd be thinking about for months or years, would be another man. I'm not just speculating about what I would do here. I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that sexting with MC would not have been an option. And I'm not THAT much older than TH and I'm single.

 

[nurseratchett]

The fact that she told everyone she failed the poly is either really clever or really dumb.

Or, really just very characteristic of someone with a narcissistic personality, again, all about Terri, all the time.

Also this guy seems like this is a vengeful attack here. He's pinning it right on it and ruining HER life. He's made her homeless, taken away all her children and ruined her reputation. If she's not guilty then .........hmm why would he do that? What better way to get even with her for her sexcapades.

How did Kaine ruin her life? Terri is well over 18 and decidedly knows that immoral and/or illegal actions will have consequences at some point in time.
I don't think he would go so far as he has simply because he wanted to "get even" with her for sexting his HS friend, let's not forget, majority of his actions and he and Desirees comments were made before he was informed about her "sexcapades".

I mean, to be honest, it's not just him that senses something is up with her. LE & the FBI both have obvious concerns, and I very seriously doubt that the FBI thinks the murder for hire scheme doesn't have merit. The questionnaire was sent out before he was even informed of the MFH plot. LE & FBI must have had some reason for that. Her account of her timeline does not jive with evidence LE & FBI has. MERIT based investigation into ALL family members has occurred, apparently she failed miserably in several, if not all, aspects that could have cleared her.

I freely admit I belive TH is responsible for Kyrons disappearance, and have thought so since I saw the first PC. I think she alone is responsible.

I do respect your opinion however, but I just don't see it the same way...

 

[DairyGirl]

Thank you for posting what I've been thinking but couldn't put my finger on.

The fact that she told everyone she failed the poly is either really clever or really dumb.

Also this guy seems like this is a vengeful attack here. He's pinning it right on it and ruining HER life. He's made her homeless, taken away all her children and ruined her reputation. If she's not guilty then .........hmm why would he do that? What better way to get even with her for her sexcapades.

Do you have children? Has one of them ever been missing? My 15 year old daughter ran away and I was out of my mind. I called everyone she had ever spoken with and one of them told me about a girl who knew where she was. I went to this girls house with fire in my eyes. Her parents answered the door and I explained the situation and they called their daughter down. She started to dance around and took one look at me and spilled everything. I am here to tell you that had that person that knew where my child was not told me where she was I can't tell you what I might have done. It was not pretty.

Can you imagine your child is gone, missing for weeks and weeks and there is someone that you are sure knows where that child is? What would you do to get that information? Would you really care who they were sleeping with? Or would you just be desperate to know where your child is?

 

[Melanie]

He should stop doing these interviews and go search for Kyron. At least reinstate the web site and organize search parties.

MOO

Mel

 

[DairyGirl]

He should stop doing these interviews and go search for Kyron. At least reinstate the web site and organize search parties.

MOO

Mel

Where should they search? I am serious. Portland is a big place with a lot of forest and hiding places. LE has searched all the obvious places. I can guarantee you that Portlanders love the outdoors and the weather has been beautiful lately. There have been literally thousands of inadvertent searchers out there. Many know that Kyron is missing and are keeping their eyes out but even the ones that aren't aware are still out in the elements where they could stumble across something. Chances are if he is found it will be by a hiker or hunter or fisher or someone out doing their business that happens upon him, if he is not alive. Or he could have been hiden really good and may never be found without direct knowledge.
I don't know what else Kaine can do. He believes he knows who is responsible and may be the only person that knows where Kyron is and feels that the only way to find Kyron is to somehow get that person to talk either to LE or a court. I can't say I blame him. I said in another post that if I believed someone had knowledge of my child's whereabouts I would stop at nothing to get them to talk. I doubt I would be a nice about it as Kaine seems to be.

 

[Donjeta]

Thank you for posting what I've been thinking but couldn't put my finger on.

The fact that she told everyone she failed the poly is either really clever or really dumb.

Also this guy seems like this is a vengeful attack here. He's pinning it right on it and ruining HER life. He's made her homeless, taken away all her children and ruined her reputation. If she's not guilty then .........hmm why would he do that? What better way to get even with her for her sexcapades.

Gosh, I hope not. I know people do some pretty scary and vindictive stuff to get revenged with their exes or soon-to-be exes but this one's got a child missing and right now getting even with an ex should be a pretty low priority if he really thinks she's got nothing to do with Kyron going missing. He should be more concerned with finding Kyron and getting justice served for whoever did it. And if he thinks it's not Terri but chooses to mess with that investigation, attempting to paint an innocent woman with the guilty brush just because he doesn't like her very much at the moment and if he manages to convince LE about it he runs the risk of them never being able to solve the case, never catching the perp, never finding Kyron. Is he really mad enough about her sexting to completely disregard what's best for his missing child? And would other people go along with his bitterness? DY and TY seem to think that she's guilty and imply that at least some of the reasons for saying so come from LE and their own observations, not from Kaine. Say, if Kaine made up Terri's polygraph discussion it would probably been something between them but he says she was vocal about it with lots of family present.

 

[GrainneDhu]

rsbm

Personally, I had no plan, so there was nothing to go out the window. A plan would have required coherent thought, which I absolutely did not have.

How long would it have lasted? I'm thinking the panic, manic phase would have lasted 24-48 hours. Until every last reasonable hope would have been elimated. After that, I would have needed to be sedated for at least another week, or more, and my life would NEVER, EVER, EVER be the same. I can tell you the absolute last thing I'd be thinking about for months or years, would be another man. I'm not just speculating about what I would do here. I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that sexting with MC would not have been an option. And I'm not THAT much older than TH and I'm single.

I wouldn't be sexting with some new guy, either. But I have known some women who were so internally needy that they felt they couldn't deal without life without a man. They'd stay with abusive men, one of them even stayed with the man who burned her in her bed! She didn't divorce him for another six years. He went to trial in her case and she testified for him. What finally got her to file for divorce was when she discovered that he was sexually molesting her much younger half sister.

My head still spins when I think of her. I still feel sorry for her because she truly didn't think she had it in her to survive on her own, not even when other people pointed out what she'd survived with her ex.

When my service dog disappeared, there were daily sightings. That's what kept me going. I knew he was out there, I knew he missed me. One of the most heartbreaking sightings for me was very early on, when someone reported seeing him sitting by himself on the other side of a creek, licking his front paws (a stress habit for him) and crying.

The first evening, after I signed out of the hospital AMA, I was a wreck. I didn't think I could eat, sleep or do anything but search for my boy (dog).

I ate because I had to eat in order to be able to keep moving. I slept because I had to sleep in order to be able to search some more. I kept up with the post-surgical eye care regimen (which involved six different medications) because I needed my eyesight in order to keep searching for him.

I was absolutely convinced the entire time that his faith in me was still intact and I was damned if I would allow my faith in him to break. I would never betray him because I knew he would never betray me.

What I discovered was that when I had to, I could do a lot of stuff that I never imagined I could. I sucked it up in ways I would never have dreamed would be possible.

What it came down to was this: I knew that no one else loved him the way I loved him, so it was up to me to make getting back together possible.

Yes, afterwards I was a wreck. But that didn't matter because he was right there next to me as I recovered.

He's lying on my feet as I write this.

 

[AbbieNormal]

I wouldn't be sexting with some new guy, either. But I have known some women who were so internally needy that they felt they couldn't deal without life without a man. They'd stay with abusive men, one of them even stayed with the man who burned her in her bed! She didn't divorce him for another six years. He went to trial in her case and she testified for him. What finally got her to file for divorce was when she discovered that he was sexually molesting her much younger half sister.

My head still spins when I think of her. I still feel sorry for her because she truly didn't think she had it in her to survive on her own, not even when other people pointed out what she'd survived with her ex.

When my service dog disappeared, there were daily sightings. That's what kept me going. I knew he was out there, I knew he missed me. One of the most heartbreaking sightings for me was very early on, when someone reported seeing him sitting by himself on the other side of a creek, licking his front paws (a stress habit for him) and crying.

The first evening, after I signed out of the hospital AMA, I was a wreck. I didn't think I could eat, sleep or do anything but search for my boy (dog).

I ate because I had to eat in order to be able to keep moving. I slept because I had to sleep in order to be able to search some more. I kept up with the post-surgical eye care regimen (which involved six different medications) because I needed my eyesight in order to keep searching for him.

I was absolutely convinced the entire time that his faith in me was still intact and I was damned if I would allow my faith in him to break. I would never betray him because I knew he would never betray me.

What I discovered was that when I had to, I could do a lot of stuff that I never imagined I could. I sucked it up in ways I would never have dreamed would be possible.

What it came down to was this: I knew that no one else loved him the way I loved him, so it was up to me to make getting back together possible.

Yes, afterwards I was a wreck. But that didn't matter because he was right there next to me as I recovered.

He's lying on my feet as I write this.

I am so glad you got your dog back. I was so afraid your post was going to have a sad ending. Blessing to both of you.

abbie

 

[TxLady2]

Those are really good questions. I don't know what would constitute legal "proof" (short of actual physical evidence, and even then...) but yes I think if the same subject area was lied about and positively identified (e.g., through cell pings) and that same subject area spiked the LDT in a way that was considered dishonest, then certainly I'd believe she was lying about it.

Someone posted that LDTs are useful in more ways than just the actual results - someone's actions before and after, watching their face while questions are asked, their demeanor.. all things LE has to work with outside of LDTs to understand the inner workings of the person in front of them.

I do know from relatives' job interviews that generally they go over the questions with you before you are hooked up (anyone know if this is true in LE LDTs as well?) and then ask you if there are any questions you don't understand, or feel ambiguous to you, or that you would like to clarify, talk about, etc. I wonder if they did that with TH. I wonder if that's when she walked out of the second LDT session - before she was hooked up, but after she understood the scope of the questions.

I can't say for certain, because it might be different in other jurisdictions, but from what I understand, no one else is in the room when a person takes a polygraph, except the polygrapher, and they are positioned so that their face cannot be seen by him. No LE are with them, and they are not always told the results immediately.
I also know that LE will sometimes tell the person they passed or failed, just to gauge their reaction.
However... I've heard that innocent people have failed, and guilty people have passed, so this is not always a sign of guilt or innocence.
As for telling them what questions they will ask, I'm not sure if they specifically go over every question to "prepare" them... that would be kind of contradictory to their purpose, IMO. If a polygraph is being given for job purposes, yes, they might. But not when it's a criminal investigation, in my view, because if they are a suspect, you don't want to give them any chance to prepare themselves for the 'shock' of certain questions. And it would not take a rocket scientist to figure out what the questions would be about, anyway.

 

[Wrinkles]

Greetings GrainneDhu,

Oh my...I'm so glad that you and your dog found one another, I was grieving just hearing of your experience. I suppose that grieving is further instigated as I sit beside my weak and sleeping 11.5 year old Siamese cat (my little girl) who may not make it much longer if her body does not heal from what it has been sick with for the last week or more. I am choked up thinking I could lose her at any time, if this does not happen.

Losing our dear pets, losing our dear children is horrific. Frankly, loss at this level really leads me to the end of what my heart can emotionally take, it is one of the reasons that I have run like a nearly senseless fool for many years to advocate against that which can cause sudden death. I've nearly lost my husband to it, I have worked with far too many people who are trying to survive its aftermath -- and now, as I think of it, it is probably why this case has gripped me to the extent that it has. Expecting to pick your child up from a bus stop, then going and not finding your child, seems a whole lot like the beginnings of facing off with a sudden death.

You asked:
>>How long does that state of animal panic last?<<

Very good question... I might answer it with another question -- hoping that I can communicate it as a "sweet question," not strident. Did your dog lose weight, seem dehydrated and bedraggled when you were finally reunited with him?

You also wrote:
>>I knew he was out there, I knew he missed me. One of the most heartbreaking sightings for me was very early on, when someone reported seeing him sitting by himself on the other side of a creek, licking his front paws (a stress habit for him) and crying.<<

The best answer to the above question you asked is to say that I can relate to your sweet doggy in a big way.

Finally...you wrote:
>>But that's a false dichotomy; their looking for your child is in no way contingent upon you taking a polygraph.<<

With respect, false dichotomy or not, I am not sure that how they are looking for my child, or where, or for how long and with which type of search team, or what success they will have in their search for my child, is not directly affected by how I might answer questions on a polygraph. Guessing, I feel fairly sure that this is what Kaine, Desiree and Tony are saying when they say "She is not telling the truth."

For a moment... If Terri said, "Yes" to the question "Do you know what happened to Kyron?" on a polygraph. If they then followed up with (in an interview outside of the polygraph) -- "Terri, what happened?" and she choked out the truth and said, "I was feeling desperate and had X person pick him up..." I think that the whole course of the search for Kyron would change (they might be searching but now they know the better course for the search). Granted, they might search for my child with or without my taking a polygraph, but they will have far more ability to reasonably search for and find my child IF I take a polygraph and answer the reasonable questions and IF I cooperate with the investigation to the fullest extent that reasonable persons ask of me. On the other hand, IF Terri said, "I took his life and hid his body here" -- the search could be directed there.

And on thread...
Your search for your dear little boy could have been directed to Timbuktu -- but caring people gave you hints to where you should look for him. Failed polys, or those reported to be failed by the person who said they failed them, has not been helpful to finding a beautiful and very loved and severely missed little boy. I cannot for the life of me excuse anyone who would lead you astray in looking for your boy, nor could I excuse them for leading others astray in the search for Kaine's, Desiree's and Tony's boy.

 

[nanny2five]

kaine said the first red flag was she failed the first test, which is suprising to me. I wouldn't start doubting my husband over that for one thing. 2. she was really vocal about it, I wonder what he means by that. I wish I could of heard what she was saying. I just don't get these polys, I have heard some people fail who are innocent or pass when guilty. I wonder when they will create something more accurate or if thats even possible.

forgive me being so far behind, but i wanted to reply to this. i agree, keeponsearching, if the first red flag was the failing of the poly, that isnt enough. polys are unreliable and imo should not be used. i dont think it tells them anything useful. TH might have done something to Kyron, but failing a poly or even three isnt enough to convince me. the mfh plot with only a strangers word and no proof, isnt enough for me either. i would, however, do whatever i had to do to protect my baby, just in case they were right. as long as the baby is safe, the rest can be sorted out after Kyron comes home. imo, i dont think they had a very strong marriage