Doctor's Appt & Seizures Revisit w/new 2010.11.12 Dateline info

Just thinking aloud...

When do you typically "talk to the doc"? IIRC, it was either during an appointment or an after hours "oh my gosh is this an emergency?" call.

Now, if it was during an appointment, there would be proof, doctors notes, etc. I could see the doc discussing possible dx's, sending the parent home with paperwork for teachers to fill out. I am not sure if I have heard of papers for teachers for epilepsy, seems to me that dx would take medical tests, but perhaps someone who knows will correct me. "Fill out these papers and we will see you back here on 🤬🤬🤬 with the medical test results and your papers, blah, blah, blah."

And I am sure its been mentioned before that Terri's problem with Kyron stemmed more from his boisterousness than his quietly staring off into space. So, papers for a teacher, that makes complete sense.

Not sure what point I am trying to make, except that any way you slice it, unless Terri saw the doc who ordered the papers be filled out by teachers, the email mentioning his dx of Kyron pretty much does it for Terri.

I think. Maybe. Thinking outloud here.

MOO and IMO

Hi SublteG,
Could you please share with me/us where you saw the above? I've never heard anything about Kyron being boisterous, the opposite in fact, timid and shy, quiet. That would be really interesting to me, because it's so contrary to what I've read about Kyron's persona, and I'd like to know who said that. TIA
 
as an aside, when I need to talk to the doc, I call,leave a message and they call me back at their convenience;almost always at the end of the work day. Have never gone to a doc or had a pediatrician that would not do that. Sometimes I don't want to be seen nor do i have time. I call for input and then make a decision as to when and if anyone needs to be seen and if so, how soon.
Cannot imagine not being able to call the doctor and speak with him/her on the phone!
 
as an aside, when I need to talk to the doc, I call,leave a message and they call me back at their convenience;almost always at the end of the work day. Have never gone to a doc or had a pediatrician that would not do that. Sometimes I don't want to be seen nor do i have time. I call for input and then make a decision as to when and if anyone needs to be seen and if so, how soon.
Cannot imagine not being able to call the doctor and speak with him/her on the phone!


Don't want to go into the politics involved here, but Oregon has an extreme shortage of doctors. They are not paid well here, so they don't want to live and practice here, when they can be making far more (insurance company-wise) elsewhere. I didn't believe it until I became involved with it. So, at least down here in the central part of OR, doctors are few and far between, if you are lucky enough to make a call to your doctor and actually get to talk to the doctor and not his/her nurse or nurse practitioner, you are on good footing with your doctor. I speak from experience. Don't get me wrong, I have a great primary care doctor, though, if you'd like to see him as a new patient, you can get on a list and in about 7 maybe 8 years he'll take you on. I'm not kidding.
 
I have to watch the Steelers lose right now :( but I will look sometime tomorrow. I am 99% certain that this is on one of those earlier videos of Kaine and Desiree after Terri's texts to her gal friends were released.

Thanks so much, Pensfan. If you can recall anything else they talked about in the video, or even what they were wearing (lol), it might jog my memory and point me to the video, and I'm happy to help look for it.
 
Don't want to go into the politics involved here, but Oregon has an extreme shortage of doctors. They are not paid well here, so they don't want to live and practice here, when they can be making far more (insurance company-wise) elsewhere. I didn't believe it until I became involved with it. So, at least down here in the central part of OR, doctors are few and far between, if you are lucky enough to make a call to your doctor and actually get to talk to the doctor and not his/her nurse or nurse practitioner, you are on good footing with your doctor. I speak from experience. Don't get me wrong, I have a great primary care doctor, though, if you'd like to see him as a new patient, you can get on a list and in about 7 maybe 8 years he'll take you on. I'm not kidding.

I am sorry to hear you are having a doctor shortage in your part of the state. In Portland, where the Hormans lived, I am not aware of any such shortage. Especially for families with insurance.
 
I remember Kaine being asked this in one of the video interviews. He stated that he was unaware of Ky having any "mini seizures". Can anyone remember which video this was on? It was a longer video and Desiree was sitting next to Kaine. They were not inside the church across from the school.

There is definitely a video that have both Kaine and Desiree where the reporter specifically asks about the dr. appt both were not aware of it and at that time they said it was unconfirmed by police that there was such appt..

DON'T WORRY...WE WILL FIND IT..

Here is atleast them stating they did not know if or when a dr appt was scheduled...Seems only "Terri" had those details that she kept hidden of course for the reason that became later known as a piece of Terri's plan to buy Terri time after Taking Kyron with her after the photo op of the SF/IB Expo...UGggh! regardless here is the email question and answer along with link to all the Q&A for this specific date...(will continue looking for the video where it WAS AGAIN CONFIRMED THAT THEY KNEW NOTHING OF IF OR WHEN A DR APPT existed for Kyron)...

Snip~Was Kyron supposed to be out of school the following Friday for a doctor’s appt.?
There was some discussion about the appointment but it was unknown exactly when the appointment was scheduled
~end snip

http://www.katu.com/news/local/97904344.html
 
I have to admit that it might be possible that she actually went through and made the appointment. I just don't know, though. Wouldn't that make the appointment nothing to talk about if she actually made one? When you actually make an appointment, there is a definite date and time of said appointment. Why would she be vague about when it is if the doctor's office would have told her a date and time? And that could be easily verified. If she actually made the appointment, just like the receipts she had for the FM stores, she would have no problem giving every detail she could to confirm it. Yet she was vague on the day and time. That doesn't add up to me. It says that she never made that appointment and didn't want to have to own up to it.

One more thing I wanted to point out, something that was talked about in the beginning of the case is that Terri wasn't counting on this turning into a criminal investigation. She was counting on it being a missing person's tragedy with the school getting the full blame, taking any suspicion off of her. In that context, it makes sense she would bring in an appointment to not only confuse the school with on purpose, but to make herself look like a marytr mother to her stepson who last saw him and said goodbye to him right by his classroom. What a sad story to tell over and over again to gain sympathy for the carelessness of the school in not keeping a better eye on him. No way was she thinking there would be any criminal investigation here - no interviews, no polygraphs. She was thinking more it would turn into a tragic story that she could only benefit from. I believe this goes to her state of mind too.

But I do admit that this appointment is driving me crazy! I really wish we knew one way or another if it existed or not.

ETA: About talking to doctors on the phone - I know I can call my gyno's office and leave a message, and the nurse will call me back and give me some advice over the phone after I ask her questions. That's not the same as the talking to my actual doctor, though. I don't know of any doctor that has the time to be giving advice over the phone. I wonder if it was a nurse she talked to, and then she exaggerated it into the doctor being the one she talked to when she relayed the story to other people?
 
I have to admit that it might be possible that she actually went through and made the appointment. I just don't know, though. Wouldn't that make the appointment nothing to talk about if she actually made one? When you actually make an appointment, there is a definite date and time of said appointment. Why would she be vague about when it is if the doctor's office would have told her a date and time? And that could be easily verified. If she actually made the appointment, just like the receipts she had for the FM stores, she would have no problem giving every detail she could to confirm it. Yet she was vague on the day and time. That doesn't add up.

She was only vague in an email to a friend where saying "I made an appt Thursday for next Friday" suffices. No need to state "I made an appointment at 3 on Thursday for next Friday at 3:45." The question could be asked, however, why bother including this information in the email at all. From what I understand, the email is redacted and we didn't see all of it. I can't know from what Terri put in her response, what questions she might be responding to.

One more thing I wanted to point out, something that was talked about in the beginning of the case is that Terri wasn't counting on this turning into a criminal investigation. She was counting on it being a missing person's tragedy with the school getting the full blame, taking any suspicion off of her. In that context, it makes sense she would bring in an appointment to not only confuse the school with on purpose, but to make herself look like a marytr mother to her stepson who last saw him and said goodbye to him right by his classroom. What a sad story to tell over and over again to gain sympathy for the carelessness of the school in not keeping a better eye on him. No way was she thinking there would be any criminal investigation here - no interviews, no polygraphs. She was thinking more it would turn into a tragic story that she could only benefit from. I believe this goes to her state of mind too.

But I do admit that this appointment is driving me crazy! I really wish we knew one way or another if it existed or not.

But she didn't blame the school. She at best expressed amazement that the teacher thought she'd taken Kyron with her to a Dr appointment in the midst of this huge expo he's been waiting for with such great anticipation. Even Kaine tells us how excited Kyron was. She also doesn't do much for a martyr mother image by driving around with a sick toddler instead of going home. That surely looks better in her narcissistic personality, doesn't it? How can anyone, though, anticipate that a missing child's case won't go to a criminal one? A child is going missing and he cannot be found, it stands to reason that it will become a criminal case. Is there any missing child's case that doesn't?

Terri could indeed have thought that the school would just GET the blame, IF she did this. But Terri could have also thought the school was to blame if she did NOT do this. In fact, I think it's reasonable in either case for Kaine and Desiree to blame the school. But they aren't. I have to wonder why that is. They didn't follow up on school procedure and just make sure the child is where the teacher assumes he is. If nothing had ever gone wrong, no biggie. But this is beyond gone wrong, and when they failed to follow standard procedure, they should be blamed for it. That's my opinion, of course.

When a child goes missing, first course of action is questioning and polys. I cannot agree Terri was banking on not having to do any of that. Not if, as is frequently pointed out, she's a huge CSI fan. Everyone knows Grissom is gonna be talking to you.

I don't see Terri's statement about waving goodbye to Kyron as any more self-serving than Kaine's statement about talking with Kyron while he fed the cat, telling him how proud he was of him.
 
OK so not knowing if the doctor did weigh in on these events that Kaine and Desiree did not know about.

How about fear?
Could drugs be involved?
Could Kyron had seen something that he was trying to repress?
Was he emotionally damaged by something he heard or saw?

These are also reasons a child would be acting this way with Terri. Because it appears that he was not acting this way with Kaine.
 
OK so not knowing if the doctor did weigh in on these events that Kaine and Desiree did not know about.

How about fear?
Could drugs be involved?
Could Kyron had seen something that he was trying to repress?
Was he emotionally damaged by something he heard or saw?

These are also reasons a child would be acting this way with Terri. Because it appears that he was not acting this way with Kaine.

I agree, and when this topic got reopened, my first thought was that he might have been trying to process something and couldn't - didn't have the capacity yet. That is IF he had these episodes at all, which I tend to doubt. I think maybe when he started to defy Terri (as 7 year olds are sometimes wont to do) she may have assumed he was suffering a disorder that could be medicated so that he would remain docile. I also think that sx of spaciness and confusion made for an amazingly timely lead-in to a child who just happens to disappear from his school one morning.
 
OK so not knowing if the doctor did weigh in on these events that Kaine and Desiree did not know about.

How about fear?
Could drugs be involved?
Could Kyron had seen something that he was trying to repress?
Was he emotionally damaged by something he heard or saw?

These are also reasons a child would be acting this way with Terri. Because it appears that he was not acting this way with Kaine.

BBM. The reporter said nobody in the family had any knowledge of seizures, not that nobody in the family had any knowledge of the symptoms that Terri emailed about. Kyron may well have displayed any or all of those symptoms with Kaine and Desiree.

About the fear, repressing a memory, or emotional damage, I haven't seen anything that indicates Kyron had emotional problems, other than possibly the separation anxiety just before age 2, which is about the time he was separated from his mother when she went to Canada, and he went to live with Kaine. That's certainly understandable in a baby separated from his mother at such a young age.

His mother did say that those fears eased.

I might question his fear of leaving the front yard when he was with Desiree. I'd like to know if he displayed that same sort of fear at other times, in other situations, with any other people.

Regarding drugs, yes, I think drugs could cause, e.g., spaciness, but there have been no indications that Terri or anyone else was abusing Kyron in any way.

Overall, my impression from all reports is that Kyron was very happy and emotionally healthy.

I would like to hear from Kaine and Desiree if they also noticed the symptoms that Terri mentioned, who among the three of them discussed them, and what those discussions were.
 
OK so not knowing if the doctor did weigh in on these events that Kaine and Desiree did not know about.

How about fear?
Could drugs be involved?
Could Kyron had seen something that he was trying to repress?
Was he emotionally damaged by something he heard or saw?

These are also reasons a child would be acting this way with Terri. Because it appears that he was not acting this way with Kaine.

Whose fear?
Who is taking the drugs?
All kids see more than what we adults think they do.
Nearly every adult I've ever spoken with blames their parents for some emotional scarring. All children can be emotionally damaged by something they hear or see.

But the fly in this ointment is that Terri is also the one who called his doctor after noticing problems. IF Terri is responsible for inciting fear, perhaps taking drugs, doing something Kyron saw that she doesn't want him to tell anyone about, or emotionally damaging him with something she said or did...........why would she call the doctor to find out what's wrong?
 
Whose fear?
Who is taking the drugs?
All kids see more than what we adults think they do.
Nearly every adult I've ever spoken with blames their parents for some emotional scarring. All children can be emotionally damaged by something they hear or see.

But the fly in this ointment is that Terri is also the one who called his doctor after noticing problems. IF Terri is responsible for inciting fear, perhaps taking drugs, doing something Kyron saw that she doesn't want him to tell anyone about, or emotionally damaging him with something she said or did...........why would she call the doctor to find out what's wrong?

Four possibilities that I see.

1. She in fact didn't call the doctor after noticing problems, she just said she did, and that' s why there is confusion about the appointment.

2. She became aware that someone else had noticed the problems as well and was told to call (by the teacher, the relatives, someone else?) or thought someone would call anyway and figured it would be best to be the first to report it to the doctor, to get it defined from her own perspective.

3. She noticed the problems but wasn't aware that whatever she had done was responsible for it so didn't realize it could be risky.

4. She in fact called the doctor and reported something but didn't plan on letting Kyron stay home long enough to go to the doctor and reveal anything.
 
Whose fear?
Who is taking the drugs?
All kids see more than what we adults think they do.
Nearly every adult I've ever spoken with blames their parents for some emotional scarring. All children can be emotionally damaged by something they hear or see.

But the fly in this ointment is that Terri is also the one who called his doctor after noticing problems. IF Terri is responsible for inciting fear, perhaps taking drugs, doing something Kyron saw that she doesn't want him to tell anyone about, or emotionally damaging him with something she said or did...........why would she call the doctor to find out what's wrong?

Munchausen by proxy? :)
 
Munchausen by proxy? :)

That works really well if the child is there to be miraculously cured from whatever the Munchausen's (can I say nutjob and be PC?) had been inflicting on the child.

Although, now you say that, and in addition to what Donj (hi Donj!!) just said.....that gives me pause.
 
Hi debs!

I suppose with MFP there are things that could go very wrong if you go too far and the child dies and you'd have to remove the evidence (the child), but IMO it doesn't sound likely to happen just like that in the middle of a school day. We've heard that the baby was sick, not Kyron. I mean, there are the seizures of course but it was a more long term thing if they existed, we haven't heard anyone saying that Kyron or Terri complained of any symptoms that precise morning indicating that a MFP person did something that he could suddenly have dropped dead of, necessitating his removal from the school premises.
 
IIRC, didn't Terri give Ms.Poryter some forms to fill out for Kyron's upcoming appointment ? Where would she have gotten such forms from,if not the doctor's office ? It does seem that she made contact with Kyron's doctor. This would have been so easy for LE to check. They could have just asked Ms.Porter for the forms... MOO Be interesting to know if Ms.Porter ever saw any of these symptoms ; she saw him for long periods of time each day...

All JMO
 
The teacher thought I said I was going to take Kyron with K**** for a doctor’s appt. I said I was going to look at other exhibits – how do you mess that up?

This is the email that always gets me. How did Terri know the teacher misheard that one particular sentence? If they exchanged more than one sentence that morning, then any of them could have been misinterpreted. And indeed, as Terri suggested, that is an odd misinterpretation to make - going to another exhibit versus going to take Kyron to the doctor with baby K. Especially when Terri never mentioned going to the doctor with baby K at all, from what we've heard. How would the teacher have misheard that specifically, to that extent? Seems weird.
 
Hi debs!

I suppose with MFP there are things that could go very wrong if you go too far and the child dies and you'd have to remove the evidence (the child), but IMO it doesn't sound likely to happen just like that in the middle of a school day. We've heard that the baby was sick, not Kyron. I mean, there are the seizures of course but it was a more long term thing if they existed, we haven't heard anyone saying that Kyron or Terri complained of any symptoms that precise morning indicating that a MFP person did something that he could suddenly have dropped dead of, necessitating his removal from the school premises.

Donjeta,
The symptoms,including the absence type seizures, had apparently only been going on for a couple of weeks before Kyron vanished ? I don't know if that would be called long term or not.... Kyron himself wouldn't have complained of any symptoms, most kids who have absence seizures are not aware of them. MOO

All JMO
 
Donjeta,
The symptoms,including the absence type seizures, had apparently only been going on for a couple of weeks before Kyron vanished ? I don't know if that would be called long term or not.... Kyron himself wouldn't have complained of any symptoms, most kids who have absence seizures are not aware of them. MOO

All JMO

I doubt he was having any symptoms that Terri was saying he did because she was trying to set up a defense that the child died in the midst of a seizure and she just freaked out and was so scared of making Kaine mad, she disposed of him, just in case she got caught. I totally believe she was laying the footwork for an elaborate scheme regarding Kyrons disappearance. jmo
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
79
Guests online
324
Total visitors
403

Forum statistics

Threads
627,558
Messages
18,548,067
Members
241,342
Latest member
ajelane
Back
Top