Kyron's doctors appointment

[Billylee]

I'm going to give Terri the benefit of the doubt and assume that someone told her that Ms. Porter thought she was taking Kyron with Kitty to the doctor (I'm still not sure which kid would have had the appointment based on that statement, but I guess it doesn't matter).

Where would Ms. Porter have gotten that impression? Clearly, she assumed BOTH kids were going to the doctor's office, not just Kyron.

Secondly, when did Terri speak to Ms. Porter to tell her she was going to look at exhibits? Terri could not have done that when she waved Kyron goodbye from down the hallway. Plus, as was mentioned in previous articles/case reviews, Kyron's teachers said he never checked in to class at all, all day. Therefore, he never was a part of any group touring the exhibits with his class.

So, Terri must have spoken to Ms. Porter when she and Kyron were touring after they took his backpack/jacket into class, and snapped the picture in front of the project.

Ms. Porter sees Kyron, Terri and ?baby K?, they speak at some point about something to and including Terri stating that she is going to be looking at more exhibits. Ms. Porter goes back to her class, Kyron never checks in, and Ms. Porter assumes he went with Terri and baby K to an appointment.

Perhaps the paperwork was on her desk, she glanced at it, and made that assumption? One has to remember that Terri was a regular volunteer at the school. Ms. Porter would understandingly assume that Terri would have checked him out as they were leaving as per protocol. She trusted Terri as a fellow educator and as a parent. Therefore, she would understandingly not cross-reference his absence with the front office.

As another astute poster here has pointed out (Steadfast, I think), the conversation between Ms. Porter and Terri is going to be forever etched in Ms. Porter's mind. It would be really interesting to hear Ms. Porter's testimony and recollection of that day.

That's a very good question. If TH said that to Ms. P, when did she say that? If she was with Kyron when she said it, why didn't she say WE are going to look at some more exhibits. And I suppose it could have been after she left Kyron in the hall, she could have passed Ms. P in the hallway. Isn't there one more witness we've been trying to identify that claims to have seen TH leave without Kyron, or did I just make that up? LOL

 

[Billylee]

Also, just want to throw in a comment about kids being safe in school. I was baby sitting my friends children a few years ago (here in OR) and I had to take them to school one morning. I walked with them both from the car to the school. I watched as the 8 year old went into the building where his class was. I walked the 6 year old to her classroom, which was in one of those portable buildings. There inside, were half a dozen or more 6 year olds, then the class bell rang. Another parent came in with her daughter. And I became more than annoyed.....there was NO teacher. I looked at the other parent and said asked if this was usual. Oh, yes, sometimes she's late and she left. I did not feel right leaving these kids without any supervision so I hung around for about 10 minutes looking at artwork with the kids, etc. Finally, here comes the teacher. "Oh, sorry I'm late, thanks for waiting here".

Just an example of how lax school supervision can be. Frankly, I was shocked, isn't there some kind of policy that a teacher should be in class a few minutes before class even begins? IDK, but I found it unsettling, even more so, because this was basically an "out-building" across the yard from the main school building.

 

[Nana46]

I have to go to work now to a school which now has my heightened awareness because of precious Kyron....we can all I suppose debate this till the world looks level....but in the end until we actually get some concise info from LE we are literally banging our heads against a wall.....if the collective "we" just had something we could hang our hats and hearts onto we might be able to lay our heads down at night and feel a little relief for this family and all of us and the world who pray for this child. Let today be the day we find him and bring him home. This I pray.
See you all tonight I hope, same time and same channel where we keep up this crazy vigil we want so much to end for Kyron.

IMO

 

[Billylee]

This is probably nothing, but I was looking at a blown up picture of Kyron in front of his tree frog project, and noticing that the room is very well lit and bright and that the camera flashes also as you can see the reflection in his glasses, however, his pupils seem very large for such a brightly lit photo. Just an observation.

 

[MarieFaith]

Also, just want to throw in a comment about kids being safe in school. I was baby sitting my friends children a few years ago (here in OR) and I had to take them to school one morning. I walked with them both from the car to the school. I watched as the 8 year old went into the building where his class was. I walked the 6 year old to her classroom, which was in one of those portable buildings. There inside, were half a dozen or more 6 year olds, then the class bell rang. Another parent came in with her daughter. And I became more than annoyed.....there was NO teacher. I looked at the other parent and said asked if this was usual. Oh, yes, sometimes she's late and she left. I did not feel right leaving these kids without any supervision so I hung around for about 10 minutes looking at artwork with the kids, etc. Finally, here comes the teacher. "Oh, sorry I'm late, thanks for waiting here".

Just an example of how lax school supervision can be. Frankly, I was shocked, isn't there some kind of policy that a teacher should be in class a few minutes before class even begins? IDK, but I found it unsettling, even more so, because this was basically an "out-building" across the yard from the main school building.

I find this really amazing. I subbed for several years in the local elementary school in the small town in Georgia where I live. When I would be called at the last minute to sub, and couldn't be there right at the beginning of school, a para-pro from another classroom or maybe even a secretary would be in the room when I got there.

There was a great deal of emphasis on the children being attended at all times.

Plus, teachers were expected to be in the school 30 minutes prior to start of the day.

Once students arrived, either on the bus or by parent drop-off, they waited in the lunchroom or gym, until time to go to class. Para-pros with lists of names of students were always on duty to keep track of everyone.

I can't imagine the situation you described.

 

[Billylee]

Yes, I thought it was bizarre! But then the parent that dropped her child and just left confirmed this had happened before. Later, I told my friend whose children I was watching about it, and she too said oh yeah, sometimes she's late so I just hang around and she made an excuse for her about something, I can't remember now, that she had an early class to attend or something. Totally irresponsible as far as I'm concerned, on both the teacher and the school's part. I'm glad to see the school you taught at had the 30 min. prior to class policy. Makes good sense to me!

 

[just]

I'd like to revisit the doctor's appointment from the perspective of Terri's emails

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html:

BBM but most of the article here.

“The teacher thought I said I was going to take Kyron with Baby K for a doctor’s appt.,” she wrote on June 5, 2010. “I said I was going to look at other exhibits - how do you mess that up? His coat and backpack were still at school. I left the school at 9 and he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left. There were no men on the chaperone list. That and it was highly chaotic - had to been 300 people running around - no coordination ...”

The reference to her daughter’s doctor visit was not mentioned again in a follow-up e-mail sent later that day:

"I didn't just drop him off, I spent time with him, took pictures and he was in safe hands I thought as I watched him walk down the hall.

“Kids saw him after I left. Teacher put him as absent at 10am. Someplace between 9-10 is when we think it happened.

“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for Kitty they didn't have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get Baby K to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. Out at 12:20. Home at 12:45. Kaine home at 2. Bus at 3:30. That was my day - they keep asking me. Now on my 5th interview with them ..."

Horman went on to talk about Kyron’s recent behavior:

"The past 2 weeks he's been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can't remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out."

That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyron’s teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4, which is why no one expected he would be in class and was marked absent.

Meanwhile on Monday, an acquaintance of Terri Horman said Terri was very upset the weeks before Kyron vanished because she said her husband, Kaine, was making her teenage son move out of the couple’s home.

Also on Monday, friends of Terri who worked out with her at 24-Hour Fitness testified before a grand jury.

According to sources, the friends were not extremely close to Terri but they were close enough that Terri often confided in them with issues from her home.

The Oregonian reported on Monday that investigators are trying to learn if another adult was sitting in the white pickup truck that Terri Horman drove to Skyline School on the day Kyron disappeared. The newspaper reports the person may have been in the truck while Terri was with Kyron at the science fair."

So...here's my concern. There are more than a few people that thought Kyron was at an appt, hence not reporting him absent - the teacher, two others (as above) and a student who missed him at lunch (and as a teacher pointed out, kids do obsess over who is at lunch and notice a friend being gone).

Based on the above with all we know, WTH? Her own words contradict...her own words.

 

[BeanE]

I'd like to revisit the doctor's appointment from the perspective of Terri's emails

http://www.katu.com/news/local/100323934.html:

BBM but most of the article here.

“The teacher thought I said I was going to take Kyron with Baby K for a doctor’s appt.,” she wrote on June 5, 2010. “I said I was going to look at other exhibits - how do you mess that up? His coat and backpack were still at school. I left the school at 9 and he was seen with a man ‘chaperone’ and 2 girls after I left. There were no men on the chaperone list. That and it was highly chaotic - had to been 300 people running around - no coordination ...”

The reference to her daughter’s doctor visit was not mentioned again in a follow-up e-mail sent later that day:

"I didn't just drop him off, I spent time with him, took pictures and he was in safe hands I thought as I watched him walk down the hall.

“Kids saw him after I left. Teacher put him as absent at 10am. Someplace between 9-10 is when we think it happened.

“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for Kitty they didn't have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get Baby K to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. Out at 12:20. Home at 12:45. Kaine home at 2. Bus at 3:30. That was my day - they keep asking me. Now on my 5th interview with them ..."

Horman went on to talk about Kyron’s recent behavior:

"The past 2 weeks he's been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can't remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out."

That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyron’s teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4, which is why no one expected he would be in class and was marked absent.

Meanwhile on Monday, an acquaintance of Terri Horman said Terri was very upset the weeks before Kyron vanished because she said her husband, Kaine, was making her teenage son move out of the couple’s home.

Also on Monday, friends of Terri who worked out with her at 24-Hour Fitness testified before a grand jury.

According to sources, the friends were not extremely close to Terri but they were close enough that Terri often confided in them with issues from her home.

The Oregonian reported on Monday that investigators are trying to learn if another adult was sitting in the white pickup truck that Terri Horman drove to Skyline School on the day Kyron disappeared. The newspaper reports the person may have been in the truck while Terri was with Kyron at the science fair."

So...here's my concern. There are more than a few people that thought Kyron was at an appt, hence not reporting him absent - the teacher, two others (as above) and a student who missed him at lunch (and as a teacher pointed out, kids do obsess over who is at lunch and notice a friend being gone).

Based on the above with all we know, WTH? Her own words contradict...her own words.

- I don't understand the perception that what she said was a doctor's appt for the baby. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would take their older child out of school to go along for a dr appt for their baby. I don't think the teacher thought it was an appt for the baby, but an appt for Kyron, for the same reason - I can't see a teacher accepting taking an older child out of school out of school because a baby sibling has a dr appt as a legitimate and excused absence. I think the teacher's perception was that Terri at some point said Kyron had a dr appt.

- Where do you see two other people thinking there was a dr appt? I've read your post twice, and clicked through and reviewed the article again, and I don't see it.

- With the 7th grader, when I look at what his adult relative said in the article about his, it looks to me like the 7th grader heard from the teacher that Kyron had a dr appt.

"And the teacher said, 'I thought he left with his mom,' because they thought they had a doctor appointment," Kim Holm said. "And then at lunchtime - K ate lunch with him every day - he wasn't there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn't get off the bus, I guess. And K said, 'Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day, Mom.'"

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html

- I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me of anything other than Terri told the teacher prior to June 4 that he had a doctor's appt. She claims the appt was on the June 11, and I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that anyone other than the teacher thought the appt was on June 4, other than the 7th grader who heard from that same teacher that the appt was on the 4th.

- I think it may well be that the 'multiple sources' also heard directly from the teacher that her perception was that the appt was June 4, or they may have gotten information second or third hand.

- I really would like to hear directly from the teacher what her perception was of what Terri said, when Terri said these things, and also if there was a date for the appointment on the paperwork Terri gave her. I need to understand why, if the teacher thought the appt was June 4 versus June 11, why she thought that.

 

[Jo in Calif]

- I don't understand the perception that what she said was a doctor's appt for the baby. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would take their older child out of school to go along for a dr appt for their baby. I don't think the teacher thought it was an appt for the baby, but an appt for Kyron, for the same reason - I can't see a teacher accepting taking an older child out of school out of school because a baby sibling has a dr appt as a legitimate and excused absence. I think the teacher's perception was that Terri at some point said Kyron had a dr appt.

- Where do you see two other people thinking there was a dr appt? I've read your post twice, and clicked through and reviewed the article again, and I don't see it.

- With the 7th grader, when I look at what his adult relative said in the article about his, it looks to me like the 7th grader heard from the teacher that Kyron had a dr appt.

"And the teacher said, 'I thought he left with his mom,' because they thought they had a doctor appointment," Kim Holm said. "And then at lunchtime - K ate lunch with him every day - he wasn't there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn't get off the bus, I guess. And K said, 'Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day, Mom.'"

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html

- I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me of anything other than Terri told the teacher prior to June 4 that he had a doctor's appt. She claims the appt was on the June 11, and I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that anyone other than the teacher thought the appt was on June 4, other than the 7th grader who heard from that same teacher that the appt was on the 4th.

- I think it may well be that the 'multiple sources' also heard directly from the teacher that her perception was that the appt was June 4, or they may have gotten information second or third hand.

- I really would like to hear directly from the teacher what her perception was of what Terri said, when Terri said these things, and also if there was a date for the appointment on the paperwork Terri gave her. I need to understand why, if the teacher thought the appt was June 4 versus June 11, why she thought that.

I'm with you BeanE on wanting to know first hand from the teacher of what she heard.
As far as KH goes, how would he have heard anything from the teacher? He was in 7th grade, he wasn't in Kyron's class. It sounded like Kim Holm might have been quoting what she heard from someone other than KH, about the Dr. appt. KH was aware that Kyron was not in school all day, but IMO if he, KH was aware of a Dr. appt, how could he have heard it from the teacher?
I'm telling ya Bean, we need to make that call to LE, so we can get this straightened out.

 

[Mellen]

-
- I really would like to hear directly from the teacher what her perception was of what Terri said, when Terri said these things, and also if there was a date for the appointment on the paperwork Terri gave her. I need to understand why, if the teacher thought the appt was June 4 versus June 11, why she thought that.

Me too. I'm wondering if she made an adjustment in her mind regarding the date of the appt. based on the fact that Kyron was not there. When Kyron was first noticed as not being there by the person leading the tour group, the teacher first says maybe he's in the bathroom or getting a drink of water, which leads me to believe she's not thinking he left to go to an appt. at that time. Then, when he still isn't there when she's doing roll call in the classroom, she maybe remembers that Terri had told her about an upcoming dr.'s appt. Perhaps the fact that Kyron was absent caused her to think the appt. must have been for that Friday rather then the next Friday, as it would give a perfectly good explanation for his absence.

 

[SurfieTX]

I'm with you BeanE on wanting to know first hand from the teacher of what she heard.
As far as KH goes, how would he have heard anything from the teacher? He was in 7th grade, he wasn't in Kyron's class. It sounded like Kim Holm might have been quoting what she heard from someone other than KH, about the Dr. appt. KH was aware that Kyron was not in school all day, but IMO if he, KH was aware of a Dr. appt, how could he have heard it from the teacher?
I'm telling ya Bean, we need to make that call to LE, so we can get this straightened out.

The 7th grader is not Ms. Holm's son; that's TK. Ms. Holm's son is the other boy in Kyron's class (KH). Terri took a picture of him in front of his project. He also rode the same bus as Kyron and apparently ate lunch at the same table as Kyron.

 

[Kat010]

The school uses the words "The teacher THOUGHT he went with his step mother..." I'm very interested in what Ms Porter THOUGHT as well. Because she, and the attendance clerk didn't THINK to follow up and just make sure Kyron was where they THOUGHT he should be.

And especially when they had another child telling them that his friend was missing. You have a child who's worried, and you...ignore that?

Had anyone listened seriously to that child, and also followed up, just making sure Kyron's absence was known to the office, oh, how different things could have been. Searches might have started within an hour or less.

 

[Mylou]

What confuses me about it all, is when the chaperone/sub/volunteer noticed Kyron missing and Kyron's friend said the teacher said he was probably in the washroom etc...
If the teacher thought he was going to the doctor that day, why would she assume he had not already left for the doctor, because didn't Kyron's friend say that TH was not there anymore?

 

[just]

- I don't understand the perception that what she said was a doctor's appt for the baby. It just makes no sense to me that anyone would take their older child out of school to go along for a dr appt for their baby. I don't think the teacher thought it was an appt for the baby, but an appt for Kyron, for the same reason - I can't see a teacher accepting taking an older child out of school out of school because a baby sibling has a dr appt as a legitimate and excused absence. I think the teacher's perception was that Terri at some point said Kyron had a dr appt.

- Where do you see two other people thinking there was a dr appt? I've read your post twice, and clicked through and reviewed the article again, and I don't see it.

Comment by me: Sorry - "multiple sources" is in this article. My assumption that would be over 2:

That contradicts what multiple sources have told KATU News. In the days before the science fair, Terri informed Kyron’s teacher he had the appointment that day, June 4, which is why no one expected he would be in class and was marked absent.


- With the 7th grader, when I look at what his adult relative said in the article about his, it looks to me like the 7th grader heard from the teacher that Kyron had a dr appt.

Comment by me: See link to PDF timeline (where boy saw Kyron. I don't have a link to the actual MSM original story):

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/Library/KH/khtimeline.pdf - Page 2 in red (BTW, this timeline is where someone gathered up the info and I think it's well done but you can make your own interpretations)

"And the teacher said, 'I thought he left with his mom,' because they thought they had a doctor appointment," Kim Holm said. "And then at lunchtime - K ate lunch with him every day - he wasn't there at lunchtime. And then I got a call at 4:30ish, saying he didn't get off the bus, I guess. And K said, 'Oh yeah, I knew he was already gone all day, Mom.'"

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/98987454.html

- I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me of anything other than Terri told the teacher prior to June 4 that he had a doctor's appt. She claims the appt was on the June 11, and I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that anyone other than the teacher thought the appt was on June 4, other than the 7th grader who heard from that same teacher that the appt was on the 4th.

Comment by me: For me, a teacher wouldn't mishear "Kyron has a doctor's appointment" and it doesn't make sense TH would go up to the teacher and say she's going to look at more exhibits. The teacher was busy and TH doesn't need to report her wandering room to room to her.

- I think it may well be that the 'multiple sources' also heard directly from the teacher that her perception was that the appt was June 4, or they may have gotten information second or third hand.

Comment by me: That's an interesting point, but the article doesn't state it like that. My perception is that TH had discussed his 'spacing out' episodes with multiple people and talked about having the appointment 'Thursday or Friday" and this was a Friday.

- I really would like to hear directly from the teacher what her perception was of what Terri said, when Terri said these things, and also if there was a date for the appointment on the paperwork Terri gave her. I need to understand why, if the teacher thought the appt was June 4 versus June 11, why she thought that.

Comment by me: Agreed. I think we'd all like to hear from the teacher, but, what parent makes an appointment and tells the teacher 1 week out, and then makes an appointment 5 days before summer vacation? I mean, when you're that close to the end of school, why not make it 5 days later when school is out? And if it's 'mini-seizures' my peds would have my kids in that day IMO.

I think this alleged doctor's appt is a very key piece of info that shows premeditation on TH's part and probably one of the reasons the investigation zoomed in on her, but that's MHO.

 

[PaulaF513]

Yep, and the only time we heard about this male chaperone and two girls was in her email to a friend. It seems like it just dropped into thin air like Kyron after that. I'm guessing the friend didn't have a good reaction to it, or Terri realized how stupid it would be to claim that when it can be verified by talking to all families there and every little girl that was there. The police could rapidly figure out that there was no mystery chaperone not on the chaperone list. It was a lie that didn't work out. And of course she used third person so that it was someone else's fault and not her own that it came up in the first place. I don't think anyone else told her about this. I think she made it up so that she could give LE some mysterious man who might be a perv to look at instead of her. When it didn't wash with the friend, she knew it wouldn't be good to tell to LE. So she dropped it.

How do you know she never told LE about it? I would certainly expect that she did, given the email that she had to know LE would eventually obtain. Is she so stupid that she assumes the friend she told would not relate the information, with anemail to back up her account?

 

[BeanE]

I'm with you BeanE on wanting to know first hand from the teacher of what she heard.
As far as KH goes, how would he have heard anything from the teacher? He was in 7th grade, he wasn't in Kyron's class. It sounded like Kim Holm might have been quoting what she heard from someone other than KH, about the Dr. appt. KH was aware that Kyron was not in school all day, but IMO if he, KH was aware of a Dr. appt, how could he have heard it from the teacher?
I'm telling ya Bean, we need to make that call to LE, so we can get this straightened out.

I've got the teacher and the 7th grader on my list of people I want to depose. Just have to convince MCSO to let me. LOL

I just don't see how to know what happened with the appt without hearing directly from the teacher her version of what all happened.

 

[gwenabob]

I've got the teacher and the 7th grader on my list of people I want to depose. Just have to convince MCSO to let me. LOL

I just don't see how to know what happened with the appt without hearing directly from the teacher her version of what all happened.

I don't think Oregon allows depositions in criminal cases. I suppose they could be deposed if a civil action takes place.

 

[eyes4crime]

Comment by me: Agreed. I think we'd all like to hear from the teacher, but, what parent makes an appointment and tells the teacher 1 week out, and then makes an appointment 5 days before summer vacation? I mean, when you're that close to the end of school, why not make it 5 days later when school is out? And if it's 'mini-seizures' my peds would have my kids in that day IMO.

I think this alleged doctor's appt is a very key piece of info that shows premeditation on TH's part and probably one of the reasons the investigation zoomed in on her, but that's MHO.

You make some good points. I'm wondering if Terri did, indeed, see behavioral changes, and the Dr. thought Kyron could be exhibiting petit mal seizure symptoms, she might need the input of Kyron's teacher, such as filling out paperwork for the Dr. If that's the case, Terri would need to get the information immediately before school ended. Doubt teachers fill out forms once school has ended. moo

I'm thinking the conversation with the Dr. can be verified, usually they note such conversations in the child's chart. Appt's, paperwork, and conversations can also be verified. moo

IMO only the symptoms noted can also indicate sexual abuse. I've been concerned about that being the case since the beginning. moo mho

 

[BeanE]

I don't think Oregon allows depositions in criminal cases. I suppose they could be deposed if a civil action takes place.

Currently, no state allows BeanE depositions. :furious:

 

[Billylee]

I've got the teacher and the 7th grader on my list of people I want to depose. Just have to convince MCSO to let me. LOL

I just don't see how to know what happened with the appt without hearing directly from the teacher her version of what all happened.

Has it ever been reported that any teachers went in front of the GJ? Just wonderin'.