TH's polygraphs

[BeanE]

I finally found Kaine specifically saying that Terri failed the third polygraph. It's in this audio interview with Willamette Week:

http://media.wweek.com/attach/2010/07/09/polygraph.mp3

 

[mmmagique]

I finally found Kaine specifically saying that Terri failed the third polygraph. It's in this audio interview with Willamette Week:

http://media.wweek.com/attach/2010/07/09/polygraph.mp3

If I ever do something bad, I don't want BeanE sleuthing me! She's like a terrier. She won't let go!

:woohoo: Good on ya, Beans! :woohoo:

 

[desquire]

I finally found Kaine specifically saying that Terri failed the third polygraph. It's in this audio interview with Willamette Week:

http://media.wweek.com/attach/2010/07/09/polygraph.mp3

Another mystery solved by BeanE's diligence. That answers 1 of 3 big polygraph-related questions. Now that we've heard Terri failed the re-test, I'm still not sure what that means - I haven't heard any law enforcement comment about the polygraph results, so did the police tell Terri she failed or is it just Terri's own belief that she "failed" based on something real or imagined (repeated questions, needle movements, the examiner's expression or tone)? And most important: what that single question or line of questions that gave her problems?

 

[debs]

Another mystery solved by BeanE's diligence. That answers 1 of 3 big polygraph-related questions. Now that we've heard Terri failed the re-test, I'm still not sure what that means - I haven't heard any law enforcement comment about the polygraph results, so did the police tell Terri she failed or is it just Terri's own belief that she "failed" based on something real or imagined (repeated questions, needle movements, the examiner's expression or tone)? And most important: what that single question or line of questions that gave her problems?

Respectfully, all we know is that Kaine Horman told us Terri told him that she thought she'd failed the poly(s). I have never heard of LE confirming or denying a person's poly results in any case where that person has not been named a suspect. This case is no different. We have no confirmation of what Kaine Horman wants us to believe about Terri's poly.

 

[desquire]

Respectfully, all we know is that Kaine Horman told us Terri told him that she thought she'd failed the poly(s). I have never heard of LE confirming or denying a person's poly results in any case where that person has not been named a suspect. This case is no different. We have no confirmation of what Kaine Horman wants us to believe about Terri's poly.

Right, that's sort of my point. Ordinarily, you wouldn't expect the police to say anything about the polygraphs (of course, ordinarily you wouldn't expect the police to provide a husband with transcripts of raunchy text messages sent by the wife after he has filed for divorce). So we only have Kaine's word or, more to the point, Terri's word. What was she basing those statements on?

 

[Scamperoo]

I wonder if she actually failed any of them....She has been told by LE that she didn't pass but not that she failed any 1 polygraph. LE is quite within their rights to lie to Terri if they feel more information might be gathered that way. There is a lot of difference between not passing everything and failing miserably and I notice LE has said nothing about her polygraph sessions to anyone. IF law enforcement released the info I would perhaps take more note of it. However, family members in pain and pointing fingers at the person they want it to be is not the most reliable source for the truth. After all if my child was missing I would much prefer to think him abducted by a family member who loved him than a passing stranger.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

But, had she passed the polys, don't you think they would have moved on from her and tried to find someone else that did this???

I think the fact they are coming down on her so hard is that she did fail them and they need more evidence than failed polys because they are not admisable in court.

IMO she failed them.

 

[Openmyeyes]

Kaine is all about using 'we' in that audio interview: "We said, let's go get another one..", "We went...", "We were the last two people to see him that morning".

In the beginning he states that she did not failed the entire first poly, but there was a specific area she failed. I was under the impression that poly's are not fishing expeditions, and by that I mean with Terri they would ask her a series of control questions: Is your name Terri Horman, is your birthday such and such, do you live at such and such address, do you know where Kyron is, on such and such day were you driving a white pickup truck, do your parents live in Roseburg, did you put Kyron somewhere against his will, did you help kyron with his tree frog project, and so forth.
They would throw in innocent control questions, then swoop in with the 'money' questions.

So, when Kaine said she failed a specific area, I would think it would be questions that involve if she had anything to do with Kyrons disappearance.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I agree. Again, had she answered questions about what happened to Kyron and passed (told the truth) and the poly showed she had no connection to what happened to him, why on earth wouth LE still be investigating her?

Something from those polys led to her IMO.

 

[debs]

But, had she passed the polys, don't you think they would have moved on from her and tried to find someone else that did this???

I think the fact they are coming down on her so hard is that she did fail them and they need more evidence than failed polys because they are not admisable in court.

IMO she failed them.

"They" who "are coming down on her so hard" is not LE. "They" are Desiree and Kaine, and "They" are not LE.

I have yet to hear LE say "Terri is our main suspect." Terri's attorney says she's the de facto suspect, but I haven't heard LE say it.

 

[Aedrys]

"They" who "are coming down on her so hard" is not LE. "They" are Desiree and Kaine, and "They" are not LE.

I have yet to hear LE say "Terri is our main suspect." Terri's attorney says she's the de facto suspect, but I haven't heard LE say it.

And if they had cleared her, I doubt she'd be isolated in her home without cellphone or internet. I think Houze is right and she is the de facto suspect of LE. Just because they don't say it doesn't mean it isn't true. They've probably been investigating her this whole time. LE sometimes doesn't name a POI until they arrest them.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Oh, she's a suspect IMO.
I've never doubted that.
They are and have been investigating her since day 1.

And if she wasn't, why all the Grand Jury witnesses that are connected to her? Why the flyers with her and the truck on them. Then the flyers with DS on them (her friend)?

They are just gathering evidence on her. And, I think they know she did it due to the polys but they have to have more to charge her.

JMO

 

[debs]

Everyone knows she's a suspect. but once again, it is Kaine and Desiree who are "coming down on her so hard."

Carry on

 

[desquire]

But, had she passed the polys, don't you think they would have moved on from her and tried to find someone else that did this???

I think the fact they are coming down on her so hard is that she did fail them and they need more evidence than failed polys because they are not admisable in court.

IMO she failed them.

Odds are very good that you are right but indulge me for a minute on this because the gap between what we think we know and what we actually know is huge in this case. Are the police really "coming down hard" on Terri? We know Kaine and Desiree are (or were, since at least Kaine seems to be softening his tone and hedging his statements more lately). We assume the police are focused on Terri because of the fliers and press conference asking for information from people who may have seen Terri or the truck she was driving on that day and because we've heard nothing else from the police that would indicate they had any other suspects or leads. The problem is that what people point to as evidence that the police are focused on Terri as a suspect could very easily be nothing more than the police trying to verify the parts of her movements/alibi that haven't yet been verified. They may have nothing at all that points to her as the perpretrator but, in the absence of any other public line of inquiry, the inquiries about Terri look more significant than they really are.

 

[wondering1]

Odds are very good that you are right but indulge me for a minute on this because the gap between what we think we know and what we actually know is huge in this case. Are the police really "coming down hard" on Terri? We know Kaine and Desiree are (or were, since at least Kaine seems to be softening his tone and hedging his statements more lately). We assume the police are focused on Terri because of the fliers and press conference asking for information from people who may have seen Terri or the truck she was driving on that day and because we've heard nothing else from the police that would indicate they had any other suspects or leads. The problem is that what people point to as evidence that the police are focused on Terri as a suspect could very easily be nothing more than the police trying to verify the parts of her movements/alibi that haven't yet been verified. They may have nothing at all that points to her as the perpretrator but, in the absence of any other public line of inquiry, the inquiries about Terri look more significant than they really are.

To me, one very important fact is that TH is the ONLY witness, material or otherwise, that has not been called before the GJ (with the exception of MC I think, which is also interesting.) There can only be one reason for that. So, yes, I think she actually failed her poly's and that LE is "coming down hard" on her --KH and DY are verbally coming down hard on TH, but actions speak louder than words, and LE is ACTING like TH is the one. jmoo

 

[Aedrys]

Everyone knows she's a suspect. but once again, it is Kaine and Desiree who are "coming down on her so hard."

Carry on

Were. It's been weeks since they have said anything about Terri. And all they have done is WORDS. Even the RO is words on paper that Terri didn't dispute or try to have thrown out. And since the beginning, she's been more worried about LE than Kaine and Desiree. I think she made a comment on a blog about LE investigating her.

I think if this was just about the two of them giving her a hard time, she wouldn't be where she is right now. But with the police investigating her, that's where coming down on her hard makes sense. We don't know how those interviews went, what her friends and former friends have been saying to her, or who's not talking to her anymore because of LE, and the fliers were from LE, not Desiree and Kaine. For all we know, she doesn't give a flying flip what those two think of her (if she did, she wouldn't be in this mess in the first place, I bet). And I don't think she hired Houze because of Desiree and Kaine. Houze is to help her fight LE, not them.

Desiree and Kaine have little influence over what is happening to Terri. If they went to LE tomorrow and said Terri didn't do it, I doubt LE would just drop their case based on that. And if she can dish it out but can't take it, that's not Kaine and Desiree's fault. There wouldn't be a band of friends willing to buy batphones if all she said about them before this was nothing but sweet and loving words.

Getting back on topic, as far as the polygraphs go, they are like a divining rod. They aren't meant to say one way or another that someone is guilty, just give an indication that someone might not be telling the truth. There's a reason they're not admissable in court. I do think it's signficant if she failed two polygraphs because if no one else failed, that does make her look bad. There's nothing good about failing a polygraph. It makes you guiltier if you're guilty, and guilty even if you are innocent. Either way, LE was going to look into her more because of not one, but two failed polygraphs. And walking out on the second one just makes her look worse. Again, Terri got LE looking at her by failing the tests and refusing to take one. If you act guilty, and something indicates you're not telling the truth, that adds up to LE looking at you, kid.

 

[Kat010]

Were. It's been weeks since they have said anything about Terri. And all they have done is WORDS. Even the RO is words on paper that Terri didn't dispute or try to have thrown out. And since the beginning, she's been more worried about LE than Kaine and Desiree. I think she made a comment on a blog about LE investigating her.

I think if this was just about the two of them giving her a hard time, she wouldn't be where she is right now. But with the police investigating her, that's where coming down on her hard makes sense. We don't know how those interviews went, what her friends and former friends have been saying to her, or who's not talking to her anymore because of LE, and the fliers were from LE, not Desiree and Kaine. For all we know, she doesn't give a flying flip what those two think of her (if she did, she wouldn't be in this mess in the first place, I bet). And I don't think she hired Houze because of Desiree and Kaine. Houze is to help her fight LE, not them.

Desiree and Kaine have little influence over what is happening to Terri. If they went to LE tomorrow and said Terri didn't do it, I doubt LE would just drop their case based on that. And if she can dish it out but can't take it, that's not Kaine and Desiree's fault. There wouldn't be a band of friends willing to buy batphones if all she said about them before this was nothing but sweet and loving words.

Getting back on topic, as far as the polygraphs go, they are like a divining rod. They aren't meant to say one way or another that someone is guilty, just give an indication that someone might not be telling the truth. There's a reason they're not admissable in court. I do think it's signficant if she failed two polygraphs because if no one else failed, that does make her look bad. There's nothing good about failing a polygraph. It makes you guiltier if you're guilty, and guilty even if you are innocent. Either way, LE was going to look into her more because of not one, but two failed polygraphs. And walking out on the second one just makes her look worse. Again, Terri got LE looking at her by failing the tests and refusing to take one. If you act guilty, and something indicates you're not telling the truth, that adds up to LE looking at you, kid.

Words are important. Even if someone doesn't believe they're important ethically, or morally, or however, the law does believe they're important. That's why there are the legal categories called slander, libel, defamation of character.

And I don't know that she's "failed" a polygraph. Has LE announced that? And what does "fail" mean? Because actually, a LDT isn't like say, a vocabulary test in elementary school, where you can get a A, B, C,D, or F for fail. You can answer every question truthfully but test "inconclusive" on one question, and that question may not be related to the central matter. LE also can tell people they've "failed" or "passed" even if that isn't true.

LDT stuff is simply an investigative tool, and how reliable it is depends on a wide range of factors. I've posted that before, because I had to go through an extensive seminar on LDTs for one job--high-level classified security management and counter-intelligence--and boy did I learn a lot. The examiner, who was credible, presenting proved to us that my boss, one of the most honest men on the planet, could "fail" a LDT with one question.

It was pretty incredible stuff. BTW, when they go over the questions beforehand, that's not to, as they may say, make the person "comfortable" or aware. It's to watch reactions, see what may stress them. Then the examiner knows how to zero in on those areas. Sometimes questions get slightly changed in between the preview session and the actual session.

So, I don't believe in LDT as an absolute indicator of guilt. I have to know a lot more than allegations that someone "failed" a LDT. JMO

 

[ThoughtFox]

I agree with others who have said that she took one polygraph, failed, so they gave her a second chance - then she left without getting hooked up for it. The third polygraph is the second one she failed, it seems to me.

I bet if she took ten, she'd fail ten - I think she's a liar, pure and simple.

"They" who "are coming down on her so hard" is not LE. "They" are Desiree and Kaine, and "They" are not LE.

What parents wouldn't come down hard on someone close to them - she was Kaine's wife and Kyrons Stepmother, for goodness sake! :furious:

The problem here is that Desiree and Kaine took lie detector tests and they passed. They weren't evasive. They weren't playing games with LE over Kyron, and Terri somehow was. Simple.

Blaming Kaine and Desiree for being upset or suspicious isn't fair, JMOO. They had every right to be suspicious and expect grown-up TH to tell the truth.

Why should they tiptoe around TH's feelings when she is giving evasive answers on a lie detector test and then "venting about it" at home?

Was Terri venting only at Kaine and Desiree? Or was she venting about the police giving her still another lie detector test?

I think she was furious that anyone was questioning her at all. She was used to getting away with her lies, and nobody likes to get caught in a lie!

I have yet to hear LE say "Terri is our main suspect." Terri's attorney says she's the de facto suspect, but I haven't heard LE say it.

I think it goes without saying. :angel:

 

[Billylee]

Odds are very good that you are right but indulge me for a minute on this because the gap between what we think we know and what we actually know is huge in this case. Are the police really "coming down hard" on Terri? We know Kaine and Desiree are (or were, since at least Kaine seems to be softening his tone and hedging his statements more lately). We assume the police are focused on Terri because of the fliers and press conference asking for information from people who may have seen Terri or the truck she was driving on that day and because we've heard nothing else from the police that would indicate they had any other suspects or leads. The problem is that what people point to as evidence that the police are focused on Terri as a suspect could very easily be nothing more than the police trying to verify the parts of her movements/alibi that haven't yet been verified. They may have nothing at all that points to her as the perpretrator but, in the absence of any other public line of inquiry, the inquiries about Terri look more significant than they really are.

I tend to agree except for the RO that Kaine filed says that "LE has given him cause to believe" that TH has something to do with the disappearance of his son.
If LE hasn't given KH some sort of reason to see TH as a suspect in Kyron's disappearance, why would he have filed such a document saying so?

 

[Aedrys]

Words are important. Even if someone doesn't believe they're important ethically, or morally, or however, the law does believe they're important. That's why there are the legal categories called slander, libel, defamation of character.

And I don't know that she's "failed" a polygraph. Has LE announced that? And what does "fail" mean? Because actually, a LDT isn't like say, a vocabulary test in elementary school, where you can get a A, B, C,D, or F for fail. You can answer every question truthfully but test "inconclusive" on one question, and that question may not be related to the central matter. LE also can tell people they've "failed" or "passed" even if that isn't true.

LDT stuff is simply an investigative tool, and how reliable it is depends on a wide range of factors. I've posted that before, because I had to go through an extensive seminar on LDTs for one job--high-level classified security management and counter-intelligence--and boy did I learn a lot. The examiner, who was credible, presenting proved to us that my boss, one of the most honest men on the planet, could "fail" a LDT with one question.

It was pretty incredible stuff. BTW, when they go over the questions beforehand, that's not to, as they may say, make the person "comfortable" or aware. It's to watch reactions, see what may stress them. Then the examiner knows how to zero in on those areas. Sometimes questions get slightly changed in between the preview session and the actual session.

So, I don't believe in LDT as an absolute indicator of guilt. I have to know a lot more than allegations that someone "failed" a LDT. JMO

I understand that words can hurt. Believe me, I know personally that they can. But I don't think she's hiding in her home because their words hurt her. If you take LE out of this, she'd be on every blog she could, in every ear of anyone she could defending herself against their words. She could even sue them for it down the road if it's somehow proven that she's innocent. That is what I am saying. She is silent because anything she says can be used against her in a court of law, not because Kaine and Desiree are such meanies. I just don't think she's the type to lie down and let other's words hurt her. But the law is something totally different and she can't afford to let her words come back on her right now. So no, Kaine and Desiree are not coming down hard on her. LE is the one she's afraid of, and they are the ones making her hide and not say a word.

Also, I meant to have the word "look" in there when I was talking about the polygraphs. So I apologize for making it seem like I was talking about absolutes when I wasn't. It makes a person look guilty whether they are or not. If they had no place in LE investigation, then they wouldn't be used. And if I was giving a polygraph and someone couldn't pass it, sure, I'd want to hear more of their story, but in my mind, something is not right there and needs to be further looked into to either clear them or expose something that would get them in trouble. I would not ignore the results of a polygraph. It definitely gives a direction to look into. If that direction turns out to be guilt or innocence, at least the person was looked into is either cleared or charged. That is LE's job. They can't just say on the face of the polygraph, "Gee, they failed, but they're such a nice person and great mom, obviously this polygraph is dead wrong about them." They have to investigate if the polygraph tells them to, whether the person is innocent or guilty. LE needs some direction, and the polygraph can gives that direction. That doesn't mean, however, that that direction is always in the right place or leads to the right person. That's why polygraphs can't be used in a court of law.