OTG, although I appreciate your efforts, a timeline is only useful if it is precise and accurate. The very first item in your timeline is the Ramseys leaving the White's sometime between 8:00 and 9:30. That obviously speaks volumes to the Ramsey's ambiguity in this case, when after almost 25 and four police interviews between them, the closest we can guess to the time they left is a 90 minute window? A useful timeline shows everything you need to know to the minute. For instance, if we knew more or less when they left the White's, and knew the people to whom they were dropping presents of to, driving times could be computed and we would have a reasonable idea at what time they arrived home. The morning of the 26th is easier to discuss, simply because the Ramsey's stated they woke at 5:30 and the 911 call came at 5:52 and the first officer arrives at 5:59. These are pins in a roadmap, indisputable facts, and from them we can clearly see that the Ramseys version of events for that period of time really doesn't add up. Unfortunately there simply aren't enough pins to put in the map to make a timeline that is useful before 5:30 AM.
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otg
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At one time, someone had created a map with each of these houses marked on it and the probable route between each of them. Later, I'll look and see if I can find it (if no one else finds and posts it before I have a chance to look).
No, the first item is "Leave Whites' and drive home". By most accounts, they left shortly after 8:00 pm. They dropped off gifts at the homes of three families who were not at the Whites' party. All of that has been investigated and confirmed by the BPD -- we just don't have that information. So I allowed as much as a one-hour window of time for them to have arrived home. If you want to calculate and theorize exactly when they drove into their garage, I think you should try to fit it within that window of time on your timeline. That's why I allow a window of time based on what is reasonably known. On my personal timeline, I have that they were home at 9:45 pm, and the other events work logically around that (driving time between houses, stopping time at each, briefly visiting while dropping off the gift, etc.). But that's just my belief based on what information is available and running the steps through in my mind.
At one time, someone had created a map with each of these houses marked on it and the probable route between each of them. Later, I'll look and see if I can find it (if no one else finds and posts it before I have a chance to look).
Not much there in terms of timeline.
TOSOS has nothing, the following from DOI is all there is:
At about 9:30 I led Burke upstairs and got him ready for bed, then tucked him in and turned out the light. I went on up to our room on the third floor, which we had converted from an attic space to a master suite in 1993. Patsy was already in bed. I got ready, took a melatonin tablet to insure a good night’s sleep, set the alarm clock for 5:30 A.M., and read in bed for a short while before turning out the light. Unfortunately, I slept soundly.
DECEMBER 26, MORNING
I HEAR JOHN turning on the water in his bathroom and realize that it is still dark. As we always do before departing for an early morning trip, John and I will get dressed before waking up the children. Just before we’re ready to leave, we’ll get the kids up. Sometimes we even load them in the car in their pj’s so they can resume sleeping in the airplane. Slowly the normal routine for an early morning flight comes into focus. Take a shower, get dressed, get going. I swing out of bed and abruptly remember that my shower is still broken. Don’t need one this morning, I think to myself. Just put my clothes on. And, of course, my makeup. I remember my mother’s words. “Never leave the house without your makeup.” Plus we are going to be with Melinda’s fiancé, Stewart, so I want to make a good impression. Got to be at the airport by 6:30 or so. Going to push us to get everyone going because time is so short. I reach for my clothes and start dressing. Minutes later I hurry down the back stairs from our bedroom to the second floor, where the children’s bedrooms are located. I stop at the top of the spiral stairs that lead down to the first floor, and I turn to the laundry area. Need to get a few things together for the trip , I think to myself. Not much, since we’ve already got clothes and most necessary items at the house in Charlevoix. I quickly shove some of the laundry into a plastic garbage sack that will go on the airplane as-is. John likes us to pack in soft-sided bags because it makes loading the plane easier. I hurry down the spiral staircase to the bottom floor and stop. What’s this? I wonder. I turn around to look at three pieces of paper on a step near the bottom. I bend over. Must be a note from the cleaning lady, Linda, I think. Probably reminding me that she needs to borrow twenty-five hundred dollars. I must leave a check on the kitchen counter before we leave. “Mr. Ramsey,” the note is addressed across the top. I look again more closely. “Listen carefully!” My eyes fly across the top lines. “At this time we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.” I quickly scan the page. “$118,000,” the writer demands. I gasp for air. For a moment my heart pounds so hard I can barely move. I race back up the stairs and stumble toward JonBenét’s bedroom, pushing the door wide open. The bed is empty! “J-o-h-nnn! John-n-n-n! Help!” I scream. “JonBenét’s gone!” He meets me wearing only his underwear. “There’s a note downstairs.” I can barely speak. “Someone has taken JonBenét!” I feel the blood rushing from my head. For a moment I feel like fainting. “She’s gone!” I cry. “JonBenét is gone!” My stomach wrenches. John tears down the stairs; he seems to be shouting, but nothing makes any sense. “Burke!” John yells. “What about Burke?” Both of us race to Burke’s room at the far end of the second floor and find him apparently still asleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what’s happening here, I think. He’s better off asleep for now. I step into the hall. John runs down the main stairs and into the back hallway. I grasp my stomach and run after him. By the time I get to him, he is down on his hands and knees, staring at the sheets of paper spread out on the floor in front of him.
[And...]
On the night of December 25, when we returned home, there was no hint of snow in the air and the driveway, as I remember, was clear. Although the grass had some snow covering, there were bare spots. The grate over the basement window adjoined the stone patio, which almost always was clear, since it got the sun from the south. We know that the basement window was found open on the morning of December 26, and the butler pantry door, which led to the outside, was found unlocked and open. Most likely the killer entered or left by one of these routes. Of course, we don’t know exactly what time JonBenét was murdered, but it had to be sometime after we went to sleep around ten o’clock and before we awoke early the next morning around 5:30 A.M.
otg
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Thank you, cynic. I should have known you'd have the link. Saved me a lot of searching.
otg
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Thanks for the info from the Ramsey books, cynic. But see... this is exactly why I didn’t think I would be able to read the Ramsey-penned books. It doesn’t really help in determining the truth, and it just frustrates me to the point of wanting to pull my hair out. Then I feel compelled to point out the inconsistencies and problems with almost everything said.
Just from the excerpts you posted:
ullhair:
Just from the excerpts you posted:
What happened to the story about staying up for a while to help him put together some kind of toy garage he got for Christmas (or was it some kind of Legos thingee)?
Is this laundry there to be washed? I mean... is she packing dirty laundry into a garbage bag to take with them to Michigan. She’s talking here about the small washer/dryer in the closet on the second floor. Right? Not a laundry room like down in the basement.
She thinks, “What’s this?” after she has gotten to the bottom of the stairway? Did she step on the note on the way down or step over it without even thinking until she got down to the bottom and turned back around to look at it?
(This is on the second floor after looking in JonBenet’s room -- just outside of Burke’s room -- where he is sleeping so soundly that her “scream” for John doesn’t wake him. Uh-huh, right.)
(More shouting that doesn’t wake Burke. He must be totally consumed in his dreams about starting a fire at the vacation home in Michigan.)
And they could see this at night and remembered noticing it as they drove into the garage. Where was that kind of perfect memory when they were being questioned by investigators two years before they wrote this book?
ullhair:
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Hey, otg :therethere:right there with ya....ullhair:
Thing is, if you push yourself to read the R books, these would be a couple of your responsive smilies: :jail:lease: with absolutely no doubt in your mind! (Though I guess you must already feel that way without having struggled through the literary c**p).
ullhair:Thing is, if you push yourself to read the R books, these would be a couple of your responsive smilies: :jail:
lease: with absolutely no doubt in your mind! (Though I guess you must already feel that way without having struggled through the literary c**p).I feel a timeline does not have to be precise to be useful in this case. We can't be CERTAIN of everything, but (for example) we can pretty much know that JB didn't die at 10:30. Lets not forget about forensic science. We can be fairly sure that the family left the White's party between 8 and 9 pm, stopped at several homes to deliver gifts on the way, arriving at home approximately between 9 and 10 pm. Pineapple was eaten and SCIENCE (not theory or opinion) tells us that it took approximately 2 hours for the pineapple to reach her small intestine, where it was found at the autopsy. This pineapple was found to match identically the pineapple found in the bowl on the R table in their home. It was NOT eaten at the White's nor was it eaten BEFORE. (because it would have left the small intestine by then and been processed into feces. Whatever she ate earlier that day (including at the White's) was found in the autopsy as the "soft green fecal material" further down in the digestive tract. It had not yet moved to the rectum, or it would have been excreted at death when the sphincter muscle relaxed at the primary flaccidity that comes at the moment of death.
That is how we know she did not die at 10:30. She had to live at least 2 hours after returning home.
That is how we know she did not die at 10:30. She had to live at least 2 hours after returning home.
otg
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What are you suggesting, andreww? That there is an inconsistency between different versions of their stories? Heaven forbid!! This, and the story about whether or not John was in his skivvies or not make two inconsistencies that you've discovered. What do you suppose this means?
otg
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By chance, does anyone remember (so I don't have to look it up) who the other family was that the Ramseys decided to not drop off presents to? I'm curious about where they lived along this route and why (besides their stated reason) they might have decided not to go by their house. Did they live that much further away from the rest?
1 LOU SMIT: You stayed in the car at the Walkers?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the Walkers, yeah. I think we
3 all three stayed in the car.
4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.
8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy
9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't
10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think
11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.
12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in
13 because that was his buddy, Doug.
14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy
16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,
17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated
18 whether we should go over there. But that's
19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home
20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would
21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.
22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you
23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).
24 Why?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over
0110
1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it
2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we
3 went home. And we had to get up early next
4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all
5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got
6 back.
7 LOU SMIT: So when you leave the Steins,
8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short
9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a
10 couple of minutes? And was Burke asleep at this
11 time (INAUDIBLE)?
otg
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I’ve had a few thoughts while working on this timeline that I want to share. This might not be important in the overall picture of what happened after the Ramseys left the White party, but I still have this lingering suspicion of the involvement of anyone whose last name is Stine. Why did the Stines become attached at the hip of the Ramseys after JonBenet died? John claimed in one of his interviews that they weren’t close friends -- yet the two families traveled together to New York prior to JonBenet’s death. Both Stines quit their jobs in Boulder to move to Atlanta with the Ramseys, and Glen even went to work with John at his new company, Jaleo (Stine has since dropped any reference to that company from his work resume found online). To the point, why did the Ramseys really decide not to go on to the Fernie house after leaving the Stines’ house Chrismas night? Was it the distance (which they knew about when they first planned on delivering gifts after leaving the Whites’
? Was it because JonBenet had fallen asleep in the back seat as they claimed at different times? Or is it possible that something else happened that made them decide to go straight home from the Stines’?
Following are a few tidbits to consider (bbm):
From JonBenet's America Documentary (1998-08-05), Produced by Michael Tracy and David Mills:
(Here SS is saying she saw them “all” awake, “normal”, and “bubbly” when they left the Stine house.)
From John Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998:
(John is not sure here whether or not JonBenet went in at the Stine house, so there is no indication at this point that she is asleep.)
(Again, the kids were “tired”, but no indication of anyone sleeping in the car. In fact, one of the reasons John gives for not going to the Fernies was that “both the kids might want to go in”.)
So then they resumed after a lunch break and John goes into a description of just how asleep JonBenet was -- explaining how difficult it was to get her out of the car and carry her limp body through the house and up the stairs to her bed. Yet Burke later testified that JonBenet had walked into the house on her own. Why the need to falsify that she was sound asleep or “zonked” (as Patsy described her)?
(Here John says “It was probably nineish, 9:15 maybe,” when they went to bed. But earlier in this same interview, John said they left the Whites’ house “between 8:30 and 9:00.” Considering the two stops at friends’ houses, getting JonBenet into bed, and spending “ten or twenty minutes” with Burke on assembling a toy, these times just don’t add up.)
The bottom line is that we don’t know exactly what happened here because the only ones who do know are not being truthful about it. Even within their own accounts they are inconsistent. The only reason to lie about JonBenet being asleep is to deflect attention away from the rest of the family. If she was asleep and taken straight to bed, no one in the family had any further contact with her until she was brought up dead, cold, and stiff from the basement. Yet we know this is not true because of the pineapple.
And while I don’t think it likely, I’m still not convinced that Doug Stine might not have gone home with them to travel with Burke to Michigan. That would be a good reason to decide to go straight home without stopping at the Fernie house. If he was in the home with them when this all happened, it would explain the boundless and obsessive loyalty of the Stines. Maybe the pit bull was protecting more than just a friend. Again, I’m not convinced that this is the case. But it sure is something that makes me wonder.
? Was it because JonBenet had fallen asleep in the back seat as they claimed at different times? Or is it possible that something else happened that made them decide to go straight home from the Stines’?Following are a few tidbits to consider (bbm):
From JonBenet's America Documentary (1998-08-05), Produced by Michael Tracy and David Mills:
Narrator: On their way home around 9 PM, they dropped off gifts. Susan Stein and her husband were the last people known to have seen the family before the murder.
Susan Stine: "They came to our house and I talked to Patsy for awhile maybe 10 or 15 minutes and they all seemed perfectly normal. They were all the same -- bubbly about Christmas and about where they were going and we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving and that was the last time we saw them as an intact family."
Susan Stine: "They came to our house and I talked to Patsy for awhile maybe 10 or 15 minutes and they all seemed perfectly normal. They were all the same -- bubbly about Christmas and about where they were going and we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving and that was the last time we saw them as an intact family."
(Here SS is saying she saw them “all” awake, “normal”, and “bubbly” when they left the Stine house.)
From John Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998:
0109
1 LOU SMIT: You stayed in the car at the Walkers?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the Walkers, yeah. I think we
3 all three stayed in the car.
4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.
8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy
9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't
10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think
11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.
12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in
13 because that was his buddy, Doug.
1 LOU SMIT: You stayed in the car at the Walkers?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the Walkers, yeah. I think we
3 all three stayed in the car.
4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.
8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy
9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't
10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think
11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.
12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in
13 because that was his buddy, Doug.
(John is not sure here whether or not JonBenet went in at the Stine house, so there is no indication at this point that she is asleep.)
14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.I know Patsy
16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,
17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated
18 whether we should go over there. But that's
19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home
20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would
21 get back.So we left the Stines and drove home.
22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you
23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).
24 Why?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over
0110
1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it
2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we
3 went home. And we had to get up early next
4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all
5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got
6 back.
15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.I know Patsy
16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,
17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated
18 whether we should go over there. But that's
19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home
20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would
21 get back.So we left the Stines and drove home.
22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you
23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).
24 Why?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over
0110
1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it
2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we
3 went home. And we had to get up early next
4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all
5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got
6 back.
(Again, the kids were “tired”, but no indication of anyone sleeping in the car. In fact, one of the reasons John gives for not going to the Fernies was that “both the kids might want to go in”.)
7 LOU SMIT: So when you leave the Steins,
8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short
9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a
10 couple of minutes? And was Burke asleep at this
11 time (INAUDIBLE)?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet, when we pulled into
13 the drive, she was sound asleep because I remember
14 getting her out of the car and she was just out.
15 LOU SMIT: Let's stop here.
8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short
9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a
10 couple of minutes? And was Burke asleep at this
11 time (INAUDIBLE)?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet, when we pulled into
13 the drive, she was sound asleep because I remember
14 getting her out of the car and she was just out.
15 LOU SMIT: Let's stop here.
So then they resumed after a lunch break and John goes into a description of just how asleep JonBenet was -- explaining how difficult it was to get her out of the car and carry her limp body through the house and up the stairs to her bed. Yet Burke later testified that JonBenet had walked into the house on her own. Why the need to falsify that she was sound asleep or “zonked” (as Patsy described her)?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke
22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the
23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little
24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I
25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and
0115
1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the
2 process. So we did that together and it took us
3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went
4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think
5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).
6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got
7 (INAUDIBLE)?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15
9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).
22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the
23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little
24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I
25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and
0115
1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the
2 process. So we did that together and it took us
3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went
4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think
5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).
6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got
7 (INAUDIBLE)?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15
9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).
(Here John says “It was probably nineish, 9:15 maybe,” when they went to bed. But earlier in this same interview, John said they left the Whites’ house “between 8:30 and 9:00.” Considering the two stops at friends’ houses, getting JonBenet into bed, and spending “ten or twenty minutes” with Burke on assembling a toy, these times just don’t add up.)
The bottom line is that we don’t know exactly what happened here because the only ones who do know are not being truthful about it. Even within their own accounts they are inconsistent. The only reason to lie about JonBenet being asleep is to deflect attention away from the rest of the family. If she was asleep and taken straight to bed, no one in the family had any further contact with her until she was brought up dead, cold, and stiff from the basement. Yet we know this is not true because of the pineapple.
And while I don’t think it likely, I’m still not convinced that Doug Stine might not have gone home with them to travel with Burke to Michigan. That would be a good reason to decide to go straight home without stopping at the Fernie house. If he was in the home with them when this all happened, it would explain the boundless and obsessive loyalty of the Stines. Maybe the pit bull was protecting more than just a friend. Again, I’m not convinced that this is the case. But it sure is something that makes me wonder.
otg
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(BTW, I didn't mention when I linked the previous timeline, but this link will take you to an unformatted preview. In order to see the entire timeline correctly, it has to be downloaded.)
http://www.mediafire.com/view/dck4zw2m0xl609f/JBR_Timeline_(according_to_Dr_Lucy).xls
Here are two screenshots. The first is of the time period of 9:30 pm to 3:30 am on the JBR Timeline. The second is of the same time period on the other timeline I created showing how Dr. Lucy Rorke's 45 to 120 minute gap might fit in with the other events surrounding it. If you care to slide that time period to beginning earlier or later in the timeline to see how it might vary, you can down load the Excel file from the link following the thumbnails.
(BTW, I didn't mention when I linked the previous timeline, but this link will take you to an unformatted preview. In order to see the entire timeline correctly, it has to be downloaded.)
http://www.mediafire.com/view/dck4zw2m0xl609f/JBR_Timeline_(according_to_Dr_Lucy).xls
otg,
Well your timeline or lack thereof certainly suggests the R's version of events is seriously compromised. Somebody should use google maps and using average mile per hour to work out the direct journey time to the R's house from the White's then add on the R's time spent at each house to arrive at a good estimate?
If Doug Stine was at the R's that night why no touch-dna or fingerprints etc, how did he return to his home?
.
otg
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Didn't you see the map linked above by cynic? Also, there are the Ramsey estimates of how long they spent at each house and approximate travel times between them from their interviews. While I tend not to take the Ramseys at their word for most things that could be used to their advantage, I believe those things could be verified by investigators. So I think the times given by them in the interviews are likely to be somewhat accurate. It's only the events around that last stop that I have this lingering doubt about. The main timeline I posted has overlapping times in it so different scenarios can be considered. In the "otg Theory" Timeline, I've narrowed down those times to what I believe actually happened (as closely as can be determined based on approximate travel times between houses and time spent at the Walkers' and the Stines'). Here is a screenshot of just that portion of what I have so far:
And how do you know there is no tDNA or fingerprints anywhere that belong to him? Do you really think he was never in the house? How about the Whites? Have you ever heard about any tDNA or fingerprints belonging to FW anywhere in the house or in the basement? We know he was there, and that he even touched evidence. Did he leave fingerprints on the tape he picked up, or tDNA anywhere on the blanket? Why did they not find John Ramsey's tDNA on JonBenet's long johns? He carried her stiff body up a flight of stairs holding her only by her waist, and yet there is no report of his tDNA being found co-mingled with that of this phantom intruder. I don't know, but I suspect that evidence from family, or from anyone whose DNA and prints might be expected from non-crime-related matters, was simply ignored.
As to how DS might have returned home, several possibilities: again, look at the map. He could have walked, he could have ridden a bike (remember the supposed bike tracks in the snow?), or he might have even been picked up by car (what do the phone records tell us?).
Don't misunderstand... I'm not a proponent of this theory -- I just can't say I completely dismiss the possibility. (But I do think this is more likely than some unknown intruder.)
And BTW, I'd still like to see someone try to come up with a timeline showing how an intruder might have done this.
I have my suspicions that IF DS was there that night, invited to go along on the trip to Charlevoix, that his parents were called to the R home in the middle of the night- long before that 911 call and the appearance of the rest of the R friends. They could have taken him home before the Officer French arrived shortly after 6 am, and then the parents returned to the R home as the rest of the friends arrived. Again- phone records would have revealed everything.
DeDee
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otg Once again, I marvel at your methods for discovery.
I was always struck by the fact that the gifts were dispersed at a most unseemly time. The Rs had seen these couples at parties prior so why not extend their gifts at that time and not at the last minute on Christmas night?
If DS went home with the Rs, he did not ride the bike home. It would be far too dark for a young lad to be alone on the roads.
If Susan only spoke to Patsy how did she know they all seemed normal --- bubbly about Christmas? What you did not question regarding Susan's words were "...we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving..." There is no mention of Doug being with the Stine's during the wave goodbye.
The detectives could have discovered these inaccuracies just as you have done.
I am reminded when John was reciting for Lou Smit how the chair at the train room was blocking the door. Smit even told John his version did not make sense. Regardless, John stuck to the story.
JMO
I was always struck by the fact that the gifts were dispersed at a most unseemly time. The Rs had seen these couples at parties prior so why not extend their gifts at that time and not at the last minute on Christmas night?
If DS went home with the Rs, he did not ride the bike home. It would be far too dark for a young lad to be alone on the roads.
If Susan only spoke to Patsy how did she know they all seemed normal --- bubbly about Christmas? What you did not question regarding Susan's words were "...we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving..." There is no mention of Doug being with the Stine's during the wave goodbye.
The detectives could have discovered these inaccuracies just as you have done.
I am reminded when John was reciting for Lou Smit how the chair at the train room was blocking the door. Smit even told John his version did not make sense. Regardless, John stuck to the story.
JMO
questfortrue
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Besides the Ss obvious relocation to Atlanta with the Rs, there were some other hints which could be interpreted to place DS in the picture.
First was the party on the 23rd when his mother SS intercepts the police at the door. Just protecting PR/JR or also protecting a couple of kids whod acted up at the party?
Second, as DeDee notes, writing DS out of the good-bye scene at the door. Why wasnt DS mentioned?
Third was the cold discussion between BR and DS about the manner of JBs strangulation, whether or not she had been strangled manually. BTW, SS relayed this disturbing discussion to MK, the mother of another friend of BRs. Interestingly, the Rs invited MK and her son to the Atlanta burial, so that BR would have a friend at the funeral services.
Regards DS involvement, it's never been my theory, but these incidences make it a little more difficult to totally rule out.
mho
First was the party on the 23rd when his mother SS intercepts the police at the door. Just protecting PR/JR or also protecting a couple of kids whod acted up at the party?
Second, as DeDee notes, writing DS out of the good-bye scene at the door. Why wasnt DS mentioned?
Third was the cold discussion between BR and DS about the manner of JBs strangulation, whether or not she had been strangled manually. BTW, SS relayed this disturbing discussion to MK, the mother of another friend of BRs. Interestingly, the Rs invited MK and her son to the Atlanta burial, so that BR would have a friend at the funeral services.
Regards DS involvement, it's never been my theory, but these incidences make it a little more difficult to totally rule out.
mho