Timelines

[UKGuy]

Didn't you see the map linked above by cynic? Also, there are the Ramsey estimates of how long they spent at each house and approximate travel times between them from their interviews. While I tend not to take the Ramseys at their word for most things that could be used to their advantage, I believe those things could be verified by investigators. So I think the times given by them in the interviews are likely to be somewhat accurate. It's only the events around that last stop that I have this lingering doubt about. The main timeline I posted has overlapping times in it so different scenarios can be considered. In the "otg Theory" Timeline, I've narrowed down those times to what I believe actually happened (as closely as can be determined based on approximate travel times between houses and time spent at the Walkers' and the Stines'). Here is a screenshot of just that portion of what I have so far:

View attachment 69480

And how do you know there is no tDNA or fingerprints anywhere that belong to him? Do you really think he was never in the house? How about the Whites? Have you ever heard about any tDNA or fingerprints belonging to FW anywhere in the house or in the basement? We know he was there, and that he even touched evidence. Did he leave fingerprints on the tape he picked up, or tDNA anywhere on the blanket? Why did they not find John Ramsey's tDNA on JonBenet's long johns? He carried her stiff body up a flight of stairs holding her only by her waist, and yet there is no report of his tDNA being found co-mingled with that of this phantom intruder. I don't know, but I suspect that evidence from family, or from anyone whose DNA and prints might be expected from non-crime-related matters, was simply ignored.

As to how DS might have returned home, several possibilities: again, look at the map. He could have walked, he could have ridden a bike (remember the supposed bike tracks in the snow?), or he might have even been picked up by car (what do the phone records tell us?).

Don't misunderstand... I'm not a proponent of this theory -- I just can't say I completely dismiss the possibility. (But I do think this is more likely than some unknown intruder.)

And BTW, I'd still like to see someone try to come up with a timeline showing how an intruder might have done this.

otg,
Thanks for the graphic. Any discrepencies in the timing could genuinely be down to amnesia. What might account for them is if they actually stayed longer at the Stines, so forcing them to abandon their last gift drop off?

If DS was involved then the R's version of events must extend back to the visit to the Stines and minimise DS's role. Another explanation for the Stine's postmortem behaviour might result from a quid pro quo resulting from whatever took place at the Christmas party?

Two male assailants might explain JonBenet's injuries neatly, offering an account for JonBenet being whacked with blunt force while also being subjected to a sexual assault?

I'm sympathetic to DS's involvement since it explains much of the adult Stine's postmortem behaviour, note both parents! The Stines were never tossed under the proverbial R's bus, and they have never done any candid media interviews. So there is some kind of dynamic taking place here, is it simply the R's money talking or do the Stines have something to hide, a commonality shared by the R's, hence the silence?

The absence of phone records and if DS's touch-dna was found in the house certainly plays into the possibility that he was present. Remember for years we all thought BR was sound asleep in bed, until the R's admitted he was awake during the 911 call, returning to bed to fake being asleep, why the need to remove him from the R's version of events? I now reckon BR was involved and he assisted in the postmortem staging, some of his remarks suggest he had first hand knowledge of the crime-scene, e.g. how JonBenet was killed.

I reckon the Stine's know who did it!

.

 

[midwest mama]

Besides the Ss’ obvious relocation to Atlanta with the Rs, there were some other hints which could be interpreted to place DS in the picture.

First was the party on the 23rd when his mother SS intercepts the police at the door. Just protecting PR/JR or also protecting a couple of kids who’d acted up at the party?

Second, as DeDee notes, writing DS out of the good-bye scene at the door. Why wasn’t DS mentioned?

Third was the cold discussion between BR and DS about the manner of JB’s strangulation, whether or not she had been strangled manually. BTW, SS relayed this disturbing discussion to MK, the mother of another friend of BR’s. Interestingly, the Rs invited MK and her son to the Atlanta burial, so that BR would have a friend at the funeral services.

Regards DS involvement, it's never been my theory, but these incidences make it a little more difficult to totally rule out.
mho

I have always thought that DS was one of the boys who might have been involved in sexual exploration involving JB on the 23rd, which is why SS went to the door.

But the fact that the Stines ended up velcro attached to the R's while sacrificing their careers, Boulder lifestyle, etc. has to be due to them having something more at stake than just compassion for the Rs. IMO, there was an involvement in something that could have come out as being related to the crime that required what was nearly a 'blood pact' between the Stines and the Rs.

 

[otg]

otg Once again, I marvel at your methods for discovery.

I was always struck by the fact that the gifts were dispersed at a most unseemly time. The Rs had seen these couples at parties prior so why not extend their gifts at that time and not at the last minute on Christmas night?

I hadn't thought about that, DeDee. Good point! I think probably each of the families who were on their planned stopovers (Walkers, Stines, and Fernies) were present at that December 23 party.

If DS went home with the Rs, he did not ride the bike home. It would be far too dark for a young lad to be alone on the roads.

Agreed that it would be too dark to put him in that position (http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/boulder-colorado.html) -- unless it was considered better to get him out of the house than to take a chance on the consequences of his staying.

If Susan only spoke to Patsy how did she know they all seemed normal --- bubbly about Christmas? What you did not question regarding Susan's words were "...we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving..." There is no mention of Doug being with the Stine's during the wave goodbye.

And there's a good reason I didn't question that, DD -- because I didn't catch it! You did! (Good catch, BTW.) That's another reason to write out our thoughts. Others catch things we might miss. And you're very good at doing that.

The detectives could have discovered these inaccuracies just as you have done.

I am reminded when John was reciting for Lou Smit how the chair at the train room was blocking the door. Smit even told John his version did not make sense. Regardless, John stuck to the story.

Poor ol' Lou. He did everything he could to telegraph John about the problems with his story. Even told him about the pineapple being "the big bugaboo". But John just didn't get the message or couldn't think quick enough to come up with an alternate version.

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

I reckon the Stine's know who did it!

I reckon a lot of people know who did it!

 

[questfortrue]

(rsbm)
I reckon a lot of people know who did it!

Some may know and, otoh, some may have had visions. From the Globe:


Thank Gawd otg didn’t expand his time frame to include any other details, like PR’s surprise B-Day party. I'm convinced one of the reasons fam’ly doesn’t talk, is because no-one remembers nothin’!

ACR -From Nedra: "I next saw Patsy when I was invited to Boulder for her surprise 40th Birthday party. Even though Patsy's birthday wasn't until December, John had decided to have the party in November because of the busy holidays coming up. He left the planning to two of Patsy's friends, it was a grand party.

-From Aunt P*m: P*m Paugh: The last time I was in Boulder prior to that December would have been, let me think, October 9th through 11th. I was there ah, it was a surprise weekend. John had planned a surprise forth birthday party for Patsy. And my entire family was there. We flew in for it.

JR in an interview with LS June ‘98:
-JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, it was a
10 surprise party, it was in early December. Her
11 birthday is not until the 29th of December, but we
12 had a surprise birthday party in early December.

. . .:banghead:

mho

 

[UKGuy]

(rsbm)
I reckon a lot of people know who did it!

otg,
ITA. Some at BPD, DA's office etc. Yet I think the Stine's know in a manner I cannot, since they were there during the aftermath.

Its a bit like Donald Rumsfelds response during a U.S. Department of Defense news briefing where he drones on about known unknowns, etc. i.e. all knowing does not fall into the same category, alike color there are shades of grey.

I reckon I know that all three R's were involved in the murder and staging of JonBenet's crime-scene but who actually asphyxiated her is an unknown for me.

Whereas for the Stines that is not an unknown?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Some may know and, otoh, some may have had visions. From the Globe:
View attachment 69789

Thank Gawd otg didn’t expand his time frame to include any other details, like PR’s surprise B-Day party. I'm convinced one of the reasons fam’ly doesn’t talk, is because no-one remembers nothin’!

ACR -From Nedra: "I next saw Patsy when I was invited to Boulder for her surprise 40th Birthday party. Even though Patsy's birthday wasn't until December, John had decided to have the party in November because of the busy holidays coming up. He left the planning to two of Patsy's friends, it was a grand party.

-From Aunt P*m: P*m Paugh: The last time I was in Boulder prior to that December would have been, let me think, October 9th through 11th. I was there ah, it was a surprise weekend. John had planned a surprise forth birthday party for Patsy. And my entire family was there. We flew in for it.

JR in an interview with LS June ‘98:
-JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, it was a
10 surprise party, it was in early December. Her
11 birthday is not until the 29th of December, but we
12 had a surprise birthday party in early December.

. . .:banghead:

mho

questfortrue,
Does Pamela Paugh really know, or is she in the dark alike FW, etc. Simply used to further her sisters agenda? Presumably she turned all the stuff over to her sister, e.g. container holding JonBenet's underwear, even her assailants, remember those pants on her bedroom floor?

I doubt that any of the three R's in the house in Boulder would actually name to Pamela Paugh who asphyxiated JonBenet?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

questfortrue,
Does Pamela Paugh really know, or is she in the dark alike FW, etc. Simply used to further her sisters agenda? Presumably she turned all the stuff over to her sister, e.g. container holding JonBenet's underwear, even her assailants, remember those pants on her bedroom floor?

I doubt that any of the three R's in the house in Boulder would actually name to Pamela Paugh who asphyxiated JonBenet?

.

Of course, there is no way for any of us to know for sure whether Patsy's sister(s) or parents know what happened. But I feel they know. Know ALL of it. I cannot believe Patsy would not confide in her sister, especially since I believe that her sister aided (and abetted) by possibly removing critical evidence from the home in the days following the murder. The OTHER sister has remained silent, as far as I know, but I believe she knows too. This was national news, if not worldwide. I cannot imagine Patsy's family NOT ASKING about it. Having done so, it is very hard to convincing lie to people so close to you. They know you too well and would know if you were lying. That being said, the wagons were circled 'round the three Rs, and the wall went up. That- and the shadow of R lawyer LW, will keep them silent forever.

 

[UKGuy]

Of course, there is no way for any of us to know for sure whether Patsy's sister(s) or parents know what happened. But I feel they know. Know ALL of it. I cannot believe Patsy would not confide in her sister, especially since I believe that her sister aided (and abetted) by possibly removing critical evidence from the home in the days following the murder. The OTHER sister has remained silent, as far as I know, but I believe she knows too. This was national news, if not worldwide. I cannot imagine Patsy's family NOT ASKING about it. Having done so, it is very hard to convincing lie to people so close to you. They know you too well and would know if you were lying. That being said, the wagons were circled 'round the three Rs, and the wall went up. That- and the shadow of R lawyer LW, will keep them silent forever.

DeeDee249,
BBM: neither can I, yet the R's were under no compulsion to reveal who did what, to do so, particularly for the asphyxiator, would be leaving yourself as a hostage to fortune, contradicting the staging in the first place?

It could be PDI with BR as an unfortunate scapegoat, since he did play doctors, according LHP, etc. The alleged sexual assault might be real, in the physical sense, but fake in the sense it was staged?

.

 

[AddieBoo]

Hi. Newbie here. Fascinating thread. I too have wondered about the Stines. Why does anyone qualify “we” in a conversation? “We, my husband and I”
The 911 call at the 23rd party that SS manages. Did some kid pass out from… auto strangulation?? The whole Stine relationship begs for clarification to me. GS is a PHD working at university-both had university jobs…and they move to work with Ramsey’s? After the murder??? Dropping off gifts after 9pm on Christmas? JR does not call Stines to their residence - or maybe he did make a cell phone call to them? Were those cell phone records recovered? The spoon in the pineapple John mentioned looked like Patsys good silver. Isn’t that a serving spoon? Did LHP mention where that silver was kept and if PR used it routinely or was it left out from the 23rd party?
The bicycles…Could DS have ridden a bicycle home in the dark?
Please excuse the question rant. This forum is solid and I am a huge fan.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi. Newbie here. Fascinating thread. I too have wondered about the Stines. Why does anyone qualify “we” in a conversation? “We, my husband and I”
The 911 call at the 23rd party that SS manages. Did some kid pass out from… auto strangulation?? The whole Stine relationship begs for clarification to me. GS is a PHD working at university-both had university jobs…and they move to work with Ramsey’s? After the murder??? Dropping off gifts after 9pm on Christmas? JR does not call Stines to their residence - or maybe he did make a cell phone call to them? Were those cell phone records recovered? The spoon in the pineapple John mentioned looked like Patsys good silver. Isn’t that a serving spoon? Did LHP mention where that silver was kept and if PR used it routinely or was it left out from the 23rd party?
The bicycles…Could DS have ridden a bicycle home in the dark?
Please excuse the question rant. This forum is solid and I am a huge fan.

AddieBoo,

Were those cell phone records recovered?

Nope, no phone records were found, i.e. Its Christmas and nobody is using their phone, duh!

The spoon in the pineapple John mentioned looked like Patsys good silver. Isn’t that a serving spoon? Did LHP mention where that silver was kept and if PR used it routinely or was it left out from the 23rd party?

Probably Patsy, as she purchased the fresh pineapple, placing it in the bowl along with a serving spoon, which was then put in the fridge.

Either Patsy or Burke served up the pineapple to JonBenet as she was too young to open the fridge door and bring out the bowl of pineapple.

The bicycles…Could DS have ridden a bicycle home in the dark?

Definitely, DS's parents could have been cellphoned to say his is on his way? If you look at JonBenet's early morning Christmas photo, all that can be seen are two female bikes, yet we know that Patsy purchased a bike for Burke from University Bicycles downtown Boulder.

Also on Dr Phil we have Burke saying:

I remember peeking down and seeing an electric train. I was super excited, he recalled. I think she got a big doll house, we both got bikes.

Oh, on the subject of bikes:

Weeks after the Ramsey's hurriedly withdrew from their 1920s-era University Hill home immediately following JonBenét's murder, Andrew Novick--a fellow neighborhood resident living in a basement just nine blocks away--was inspired by a local news report to explore the back of the house.

There he found JonBenet's pink tricycle which has since become the subject of a short film, and extended feature played at the Denver Film Festivals.

.

 

[DeDee]

@UKGuy

"There he found JonBenet's pink tricycle which has since become the subject of a short film, and extended feature played at the Denver Film Festivals."


JAN 3, 2019
Andrew Novick told RadarOnline.com he wants to unload the pink three-wheeler that he’s owned for 22 years at a negotiable price of $100,000 since it is currently just sitting the garage at his Denver home collecting dust.

Photo Credit : ANDREW NOVICK
JonBenét Ramsey Memorabilia Collector Selling Murdered Tot's Tricycle For $100,000

The photo of JB with the two bicycles by the Christmas tree on Christmas morning and more at this link https://www.couriermail.com.au/life...e/news-story/ac6ebcf3d362a6b9adf9e400ba19d463

 

[DeDee]

Hi. Newbie here. Fascinating thread. I too have wondered about the Stines. Why does anyone qualify “we” in a conversation? “We, my husband and I”
The 911 call at the 23rd party that SS manages. Did some kid pass out from… auto strangulation?? The whole Stine relationship begs for clarification to me. GS is a PHD working at university-both had university jobs…and they move to work with Ramsey’s? After the murder??? Dropping off gifts after 9pm on Christmas? JR does not call Stines to their residence - or maybe he did make a cell phone call to them? Were those cell phone records recovered? The spoon in the pineapple John mentioned looked like Patsys good silver. Isn’t that a serving spoon? Did LHP mention where that silver was kept and if PR used it routinely or was it left out from the 23rd party?
The bicycles…Could DS have ridden a bicycle home in the dark?
Please excuse the question rant. This forum is solid and I am a huge fan.

We're thrilled you have joined us. Welcome!

The party on the 23rd was when JB was seen sitting on the stairs and asked by someone why she was sitting there looking so unhappy; near tears. JonBenet told that person she did not feel pretty.

What happened to make JBR feel as if she wasn't pretty?

The Christmas Party discussion thread is here:

The December 23 party

I am the member who found, in 2014, that the Dr Seuss book inside the bleu Samsonite was the only book for adults written by Dr Seuss that contains nude drawings and introduces the Peeping Tom, "The Seven Lady Godivas." Up until that point, everyone assumed it was "Oh, the places you shall go." My post about can be found here:

JAR's semen on the blanket in a suitcase in the basement

The book's title is further explained in this post:

In part, it contains this:
Carnes opinion: "A lab report indicated that fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt that JonBenet was wearing when she was found in the wine cellar."

JAR's semen on the blanket in a suitcase in the basement

 

[DeDee]

If you follow the link provided at the end of this post, youll find my attempt at trying to create a timeline of events that took place in the approximate 24 hours surrounding JonBenets death. I dont consider it complete or exact -- only a place to start in trying to piece together what makes sense between all the different accounts of what happened.

In making it, I considered the following accounts (I dont have a copy of PMPT, so I have relied on ACR and questfortrue for references from it):

• PMPT (Schiller)
• IRMI (Thomas)
• FF: WRKJ (Kolar)
• Bonita Papers (Sauer)

I have not considered DOI (Ramseys) or TOSoS (Ramsey) -- havent read them, dont know if I could stomach reading them, although I admire anyone who could. I dont know how to resolve any Ramsey inconsistencies with other accounts (including their own) considering the information is coming from suspects with an interest in slanting the truth to their advantage.

I have not read all of the available testimony and depositions from the various court cases, but I would consider testimony given under oath (except by a suspect) to have more weight than one of the authors. If anyone would like for me to add anything to the timeline based on any other information, by all means let me know. I dont consider it complete, but its as far as I can get based on what information I have available (without looking for and reading through published court testimony and depositions). Questfortrue has already helped by giving me references from sources I dont have available. Anyone who thinks it would help to add something else can post the information here and Ill add it and adjust the timeline if need be.

After looking over the timeline, I suggest that each of you make a copy of it which you can adjust according to what you believe happened or what information you choose to believe. Later Ill post a timeline reflecting my otg Theory to show how each person can customize it to fit the pieces together and see if a theory fits with what is actually known. Ill also post another timeline which shows what would have to have happened for Dr. Rorkes 45 to 120 minute interval to work. I also welcome anyone who believes in complete Ramsey innocence to adjust it with whatever information that might be helpful to demonstrate how an intruder could have committed this. My opinion is that, if anything, it may show how unlikely it is that the intruder scenario is possible. (Consider this a challenge.) Knowing (realistically) digestion times for a child, when the Ramseys were home, where pineapple was available, etc. makes the intruder theories unlikely (IMO) -- as do other things when considered on a timeline.

I created this in Microsoft Excel because I feel its more helpful to look at it as a continuing line of time (hence -- a timeline :giggle rather than simply seeing the times listed sequentially and running down a page. In this format you can visualize the overlaps of different events and see where there might be conflicts between the different reported versions. If you dont have Excel, there are free programs that might work well as a substitute. Here is a comparison of different programs:

Comparison of spreadsheet software - Wikipedia

I tried converting it to a Google Docs spreadsheet, but some of the formatting was lost. I dont know how well any others might work, so any suggestions will be appreciated. There is also a free program available for simply viewing Excel spreadsheets in case you dont plan on altering anything. It can be downloaded here:

Free Excel Viewer

Here is the link (Mediafire) to the JBR Timeline:

JBR Timeline

otg's link to Mediafire is valid.

otg composes this timeline spreadsheet for several reasons. One being that the R's weren't always forthcoming with information and that information may change or else they'd be most vague about times. Hence, the TL proves certain things could not have happened when we're told they did.

The TimeLine is repeated here with otg's caveat which is a caveat that I agree with:

JBR Timeline

Some people will dispute that she was molested. Some will question whether she even ate pineapple. Many doubt that Melody Stanton heard a scream. But I tried to create it using reality. She WAS molested just before she died. She DID eat pineapple and it doesnt take 8 to 12 hours for it to move from the stomach to the duodenum. And I believe there was a scream in the middle of the night. Not knowing with certainty, most sources refer to her as having died after midnight, around midnight, or even in the early hours of Dec. 26. I based that 11:30 to 2:00 time period around the time of the scream and other estimates of TOD. I dont think its a coincidence. I added 30 minutes to the beginning of that time period to allow for the first of those four events.

Within less than four hours, the pineapple and also the crabmeat Priscilla fed JonBenet Christmas evening would take less than 4 hours to reach the duodenum. They arrive at the White's around 6. JonBenet eats crabmeat. When she gets home, the crabmeat has digested when she indulges in fresh pineapple.

The AR confirms there were bits of pineapple in her stomach.

 

[DeDee]

Regarding the pineapple

After ingestion, food passes from the stomach to the small intestine in six to eight hours and then spends the rest of the time moving through the large intestine (colon), which is about five feet long

Everyone has a 5' long intestines. It's just really narrow and small when you're young.

Food ingested to digest in stomach = 6 hours

A normally, healthy adult, requires 4 hours to digest a boiled egg from table to entering duodenum.

JonBenet was fed crab meat Priscillia picked out and plated specifically for JonBenet bc who doesn't love it very much at Christmas? It took between 4 - 6 hours to get the crab meat into her duodenum.

JonBenet ingested fresh pineapple sometime before death. I would venture a 4 hour gap, at most, between consuming the fruit and it remaining, in stomach, at death. If the R's are home by 9:30pm and light's out by 10, when did JB dine on pineapple for it to still be in her stomach?

I'd guess between 10 and 2am. JB's is very much dead by the time 911 was called and French arrived at 7am.

If she dines at 10, she's dead by 2? If she dines at 12am, she's dead by 4am.

JMHOO and all that jazz

 

[UKGuy]

Regarding the pineapple

After ingestion, food passes from the stomach to the small intestine in six to eight hours and then spends the rest of the time moving through the large intestine (colon), which is about five feet long

Everyone has a 5' long intestines. It's just really narrow and small when you're young.

Food ingested to digest in stomach = 6 hours

A normally, healthy adult, requires 4 hours to digest a boiled egg from table to entering duodenum.

JonBenet was fed crab meat Priscillia picked out and plated specifically for JonBenet bc who doesn't love it very much at Christmas? It took between 4 - 6 hours to get the crab meat into her duodenum.

JonBenet ingested fresh pineapple sometime before death. I would venture a 4 hour gap, at most, between consuming the fruit and it remaining, in stomach, at death. If the R's are home by 9:30pm and light's out by 10, when did JB dine on pineapple for it to still be in her stomach?

I'd guess between 10 and 2am. JB's is very much dead by the time 911 was called and French arrived at 7am.

If she dines at 10, she's dead by 2? If she dines at 12am, she's dead by 4am.

JMHOO and all that jazz

DeDee,

Regarding the pineapple

Your figures for the time period referencing intestinal passage are way out as Pineapple is one of those foods that is made up of mostly water, so it passes through the digestive system fairly quickly, rind and seed being excepted.

So rather than hours the time period could be minutes, e.g. 20 minutes, etc.

.