Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2

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The search for the missing submersible off in the North Atlantic is raising legal questions about who might be responsible for any mishap.

In the case of the Titan, passengers on board were asked to sign a waiver form that stressed the risk of death, however legal experts say this may not be enough to protect the company from liability.

Speaking to MSNBC, Stanford University law professor Nora Freeman Engstrom said that a court may be open to setting aside the waiver.

www.theguardian.com

More noises heard in search area, says US Coast Guard, amid huge effort to bring crew home – as it happened

Rescue team says every noise being tracked and analysed; ‘every possible effort’ being made to bring missing crew home, says Polar Prince co-owner
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
10ofRods said:
I have a hard time with the word "fully." Almost no one goes into a situation like this (or into an operating room) fully aware of the risks. A lot of expertise and research is needed to even assess the real risks of something like this.

Being told several times "You could die" is not sufficient for me to say they understood the risks. I am aware each time I go out on a boat or up into the sky on a plane that "I could die," but I really don't know all the things that could go wrong.

The 19 year old, in particular was not (imo) capable of assessing the risk.

OTOH, I suppose since 21 passengers had done this safely, the average person might say, "Not all that risky." To me, even a 1% risk is too much when it's not necessary. My students think it sounds great if only "One percent die" from something - but in fact, when I tell them that means, in the classroom that holds 200, 2 of them would be dead at the end of the activity, then they start to shift their perspective. If I tell a class of 50 that if there's a 1% chance of sniper fire as they walk to their cars, that means on average, one of them will die every other day. NO one says they think that sounds just fine.

So I believe people have to be taught some perspective. Seven voyages of Titans resulted in safe exploration for 21 people (plus 14 crew, of whom at least one was the same person each time, so I'm not going to count him, as he broke his record of safety). 34 people have apparently survived this procedure. 34-5. Those are the current odds. I believe that many younger people would think that sounded...okay. Most parents would say it does not sound okay, if they're assessing risk for their minor children (I would surely hope most parents would reject those risks).

But people do stuff every day that shows me their risk assessment ability is faulty and, for me, it takes real dialogue. My own work in SAR (on the lost person behavior aspect) and in National Parks has convinced me that Ghiglieri and other park rangers are right: a person making an important, risky decision all by themselves is almost always at risk. Someone trying to sell someone else risky behavior should face ethical and technical questioning. Two people trying to decide, actively, through dialogue, always fare better.

One of these passengers was a solo passenger. Then, there were the father-son duo. I figure that when a parent decides a risky thing is okay, it has real influence on offspring. I just can't get my mind to believe that the 19 year old was "fully" aware of what could happen. I will even go so far as to state that it's highly unlikely that the 19 year old was mentally ready to face what happened 2 hours into this voyage, when everything went dark.

IMO.
Click to expand...
This is so interesting! And then we have to add in that employee who expressed his concerns that paying tourists would not be aware of the super risky nature of this experimental sub and that he thought they should be made aware, and he was promptly fired. I don‘t think they had ALL the information. We sign waivers for everything these days, and I think a lot of times we just think it’s CYA & don’t take them seriously enough. And then human nature and people being people like you’re talking about. I don’t think they were fully aware either.
 
cuffem said:
Because the company used the research excuse as a way to justify putting people in danger for a thrill ride, for them to make big profits. IMO.
Click to expand...
This happens to be a pet peeve of mine. Ship wreck salvage companies claim research is being done with marine archeologists documenting shipwrecks while retrieving loot and debris. But really they destroy much of what is found and you can go to online sites and see the amounts being made on shipwrecks.
Most of the loot is not going to museums but to wealthy collectors.
All my opinion and from online reading.
 
cuffem said:
Because the company used the research excuse as a way to justify putting people in danger for a thrill ride, for them to make big profits. IMO.
Click to expand...

And, if it was an "excuse" for profit, as you say (and maybe we will see definite proof of that at some point)... did the people sign waivers for this ride?? Just looking at the vessel... they apparently didn't see what most people see which is a sardine can with zip-ties and game controller heading into a black undersea abyss. They were blinded by the companies "research" claim OR did they want a thrill ride??

imo These people were not blinded by any research claims.
 
Glimma0927 said:
Sadly, this does not surprise me. I used to do workplace safety inspections and consultations. When I would ask the business owners and executives what their plan was for catastrophic emergencies (i.e. confined space rescue), their answer was "call 911" without verifying whether or not their local emergency services would have the equipment and training to provide whatever emergency service they needed. In this case, their only plan was "call the coast guard."
Click to expand...

I would be interested in the contracts signed, and you would think for the cost involved, that there would have been disclosure about the "emergency plan". Of course, corporate hubris..."nothing will go wrong, carryon"...

Perhaps I am always about the "worst case scenario", if something can go wrong, it will. This is why I put the "kabosh" on any cruises. My husband is disabled, he would be absolutely useless in any emergency situation.
 
fred&edna said:
And, if it was an "excuse" for profit, as you say (and maybe we will see definite proof of that at some point)... did the people sign waivers for this ride?? Just looking at the vessel... they apparently didn't see what most people see which is a sardine can with zip-ties and game controller heading into a black undersea abyss. They were blinded by the companies "research" claim OR did they want a thrill ride??

imo These people were not blinded by any research claims.
Click to expand...
fed&edna, I am not sure what you are disputing with me? I am just doubting the research aspect of the Titan company.
I am also trying not to get TOS by saying what I really think of the money being made.
 
cuffem said:
fed&edna, I am not sure what you are disputing with me? I am just doubting the research aspect of the Titan company.
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of making a profit from fraud, grave-robbing.. just like you. However, I can't hold everyone else responsible for my personal choices. It's all good... I have respect for your opinions and thoughts ;)
 
10ofRods said:
I have a hard time with the word "fully." Almost no one goes into a situation like this (or into an operating room) fully aware of the risks. A lot of expertise and research is needed to even assess the real risks of something like this.

Being told several times "You could die" is not sufficient for me to say they understood the risks. I am aware each time I go out on a boat or up into the sky on a plane that "I could die," but I really don't know all the things that could go wrong.

The 19 year old, in particular was not (imo) capable of assessing the risk.

OTOH, I suppose since 21 passengers had done this safely, the average person might say, "Not all that risky." To me, even a 1% risk is too much when it's not necessary. My students think it sounds great if only "One percent die" from something - but in fact, when I tell them that means, in the classroom that holds 200, 2 of them would be dead at the end of the activity, then they start to shift their perspective. If I tell a class of 50 that if there's a 1% chance of sniper fire as they walk to their cars, that means on average, one of them will die every other day. NO one says they think that sounds just fine.

So I believe people have to be taught some perspective. Seven voyages of Titans resulted in safe exploration for 21 people (plus 14 crew, of whom at least one was the same person each time, so I'm not going to count him, as he broke his record of safety). 34 people have apparently survived this procedure. 34-5. Those are the current odds. I believe that many younger people would think that sounded...okay. Most parents would say it does not sound okay, if they're assessing risk for their minor children (I would surely hope most parents would reject those risks).

But people do stuff every day that shows me their risk assessment ability is faulty and, for me, it takes real dialogue. My own work in SAR (on the lost person behavior aspect) and in National Parks has convinced me that Ghiglieri and other park rangers are right: a person making an important, risky decision all by themselves is almost always at risk. Someone trying to sell someone else risky behavior should face ethical and technical questioning. Two people trying to decide, actively, through dialogue, always fare better.

One of these passengers was a solo passenger. Then, there were the father-son duo. I figure that when a parent decides a risky thing is okay, it has real influence on offspring. I just can't get my mind to believe that the 19 year old was "fully" aware of what could happen. I will even go so far as to state that it's highly unlikely that the 19 year old was mentally ready to face what happened 2 hours into this voyage, when everything went dark.

IMO.
Click to expand...
At 19 he most likely knew the risks, you won't need expertise or research to know what risks are associated with going on a submarine underwater at extreme depths, that's common sense. <modsnip - rude>
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shocking graphic reveals just how deep the missing TITAN sub could be​

dailynewsera.com

Titanic: Shocking Graphic Reveals Just How Deep The Missing Sub Could Be - Daily News Era

A shocking graphic has revealed how the missing Titanic submersible could be stuck on the ocean floor in waters more than twice as deep as the Grand Canyon.
dailynewsera.com

1687395120797.png

TITAN SUBMERSIBLE SPECIFICATIONS​

Maximum depth: 13,123 ft (4,000m)
Capacity: Five people (one pilot and four crew members)
Pressure vessel material: Carbon fibre and titanium
Overall dimensions: 22ft x 9.2ft x 8.3ft high (670cm x 280cm x 250cm)
Weight: 23,000 lbs (10,432 kg)
Speed: 3 knots
Life support: 96 hours for five crew
 

Time window for rescue 'not hard and fast'​

A former US Navy diver says there’s still cause for hope as the search for the missing submersible continues.

"Everybody is focused on the 96-hour window for the life support that they're giving to the crew but that's not a hard and fast number and I know that the search teams are not focused on that being a hard and fast number," Captain Bobbie Scholley told BBC Newsnight.

"This will continue to be a rescue mission even past that number, if it has to go past that number, so that gives me hope also."

 
fred&edna said:
I'm not a fan of making a profit from fraud, grave-robbing.. just like you. However, I can't hold everyone else responsible for my personal choices. It's all good... I have respect for your opinions and thoughts ;)
Click to expand...
No worries!
That is the thing with thrill seekers, they can risk themselves but then it leads to others being at risk to rescue them.
 
CrimeDawg123 said:
They have a right to do it, sure. What they don't have a right to do IMO is fail to take precautions or plan for failures, and then rely on others to come to their rescue. Especially when those rescuers are putting themselves at risk.
Click to expand...

Maybe new laws and regulations will be written regarding companies operating these little subs. 'Guess that's what we can hope for in the future... to keep everyone safe from bad operators and from the risk-takers.

PSA: Check your states raw milk laws ;)
 
10ofRods said:
Re: Morse Code

What I want to know is how one could do dots and dashes by banging on titanium or other metal in the sub.

I can only manage to make banging sounds on metal that have longer intervals (the dash?)

Are any of you more coordinated than I am?
Click to expand...
try one finger (dot) and then four fingers (dash)- improvised but....
 
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