sds71
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This is so interesting! And then we have to add in that employee who expressed his concerns that paying tourists would not be aware of the super risky nature of this experimental sub and that he thought they should be made aware, and he was promptly fired. I don‘t think they had ALL the information. We sign waivers for everything these days, and I think a lot of times we just think it’s CYA & don’t take them seriously enough. And then human nature and people being people like you’re talking about. I don’t think they were fully aware either.I have a hard time with the word "fully." Almost no one goes into a situation like this (or into an operating room) fully aware of the risks. A lot of expertise and research is needed to even assess the real risks of something like this.
Being told several times "You could die" is not sufficient for me to say they understood the risks. I am aware each time I go out on a boat or up into the sky on a plane that "I could die," but I really don't know all the things that could go wrong.
The 19 year old, in particular was not (imo) capable of assessing the risk.
OTOH, I suppose since 21 passengers had done this safely, the average person might say, "Not all that risky." To me, even a 1% risk is too much when it's not necessary. My students think it sounds great if only "One percent die" from something - but in fact, when I tell them that means, in the classroom that holds 200, 2 of them would be dead at the end of the activity, then they start to shift their perspective. If I tell a class of 50 that if there's a 1% chance of sniper fire as they walk to their cars, that means on average, one of them will die every other day. NO one says they think that sounds just fine.
So I believe people have to be taught some perspective. Seven voyages of Titans resulted in safe exploration for 21 people (plus 14 crew, of whom at least one was the same person each time, so I'm not going to count him, as he broke his record of safety). 34 people have apparently survived this procedure. 34-5. Those are the current odds. I believe that many younger people would think that sounded...okay. Most parents would say it does not sound okay, if they're assessing risk for their minor children (I would surely hope most parents would reject those risks).
But people do stuff every day that shows me their risk assessment ability is faulty and, for me, it takes real dialogue. My own work in SAR (on the lost person behavior aspect) and in National Parks has convinced me that Ghiglieri and other park rangers are right: a person making an important, risky decision all by themselves is almost always at risk. Someone trying to sell someone else risky behavior should face ethical and technical questioning. Two people trying to decide, actively, through dialogue, always fare better.
One of these passengers was a solo passenger. Then, there were the father-son duo. I figure that when a parent decides a risky thing is okay, it has real influence on offspring. I just can't get my mind to believe that the 19 year old was "fully" aware of what could happen. I will even go so far as to state that it's highly unlikely that the 19 year old was mentally ready to face what happened 2 hours into this voyage, when everything went dark.
IMO.
This happens to be a pet peeve of mine. Ship wreck salvage companies claim research is being done with marine archeologists documenting shipwrecks while retrieving loot and debris. But really they destroy much of what is found and you can go to online sites and see the amounts being made on shipwrecks.Because the company used the research excuse as a way to justify putting people in danger for a thrill ride, for them to make big profits. IMO.
Because the company used the research excuse as a way to justify putting people in danger for a thrill ride, for them to make big profits. IMO.
Sadly, this does not surprise me. I used to do workplace safety inspections and consultations. When I would ask the business owners and executives what their plan was for catastrophic emergencies (i.e. confined space rescue), their answer was "call 911" without verifying whether or not their local emergency services would have the equipment and training to provide whatever emergency service they needed. In this case, their only plan was "call the coast guard."
fed&edna, I am not sure what you are disputing with me? I am just doubting the research aspect of the Titan company.And, if it was an "excuse" for profit, as you say (and maybe we will see definite proof of that at some point)... did the people sign waivers for this ride?? Just looking at the vessel... they apparently didn't see what most people see which is a sardine can with zip-ties and game controller heading into a black undersea abyss. They were blinded by the companies "research" claim OR did they want a thrill ride??
imo These people were not blinded by any research claims.
Yet...Passengers signed or not. I don't see them not getting sued.
fed&edna, I am not sure what you are disputing with me? I am just doubting the research aspect of the Titan company.
At 19 he most likely knew the risks, you won't need expertise or research to know what risks are associated with going on a submarine underwater at extreme depths, that's common sense. <modsnip - rude>I have a hard time with the word "fully." Almost no one goes into a situation like this (or into an operating room) fully aware of the risks. A lot of expertise and research is needed to even assess the real risks of something like this.
Being told several times "You could die" is not sufficient for me to say they understood the risks. I am aware each time I go out on a boat or up into the sky on a plane that "I could die," but I really don't know all the things that could go wrong.
The 19 year old, in particular was not (imo) capable of assessing the risk.
OTOH, I suppose since 21 passengers had done this safely, the average person might say, "Not all that risky." To me, even a 1% risk is too much when it's not necessary. My students think it sounds great if only "One percent die" from something - but in fact, when I tell them that means, in the classroom that holds 200, 2 of them would be dead at the end of the activity, then they start to shift their perspective. If I tell a class of 50 that if there's a 1% chance of sniper fire as they walk to their cars, that means on average, one of them will die every other day. NO one says they think that sounds just fine.
So I believe people have to be taught some perspective. Seven voyages of Titans resulted in safe exploration for 21 people (plus 14 crew, of whom at least one was the same person each time, so I'm not going to count him, as he broke his record of safety). 34 people have apparently survived this procedure. 34-5. Those are the current odds. I believe that many younger people would think that sounded...okay. Most parents would say it does not sound okay, if they're assessing risk for their minor children (I would surely hope most parents would reject those risks).
But people do stuff every day that shows me their risk assessment ability is faulty and, for me, it takes real dialogue. My own work in SAR (on the lost person behavior aspect) and in National Parks has convinced me that Ghiglieri and other park rangers are right: a person making an important, risky decision all by themselves is almost always at risk. Someone trying to sell someone else risky behavior should face ethical and technical questioning. Two people trying to decide, actively, through dialogue, always fare better.
One of these passengers was a solo passenger. Then, there were the father-son duo. I figure that when a parent decides a risky thing is okay, it has real influence on offspring. I just can't get my mind to believe that the 19 year old was "fully" aware of what could happen. I will even go so far as to state that it's highly unlikely that the 19 year old was mentally ready to face what happened 2 hours into this voyage, when everything went dark.
IMO.
Absolutely, a signed document saying you understand the risks and waive liability means nothing these days. They will depose the employee who is saying "paying tourists" did not understand the danger. And who knows whatever other loop holes they will find.Yet...
IMO, I do see lawsuits coming.
JMO
No worries!I'm not a fan of making a profit from fraud, grave-robbing.. just like you. However, I can't hold everyone else responsible for my personal choices. It's all good... I have respect for your opinions and thoughts![]()
They have a right to do it, sure. What they don't have a right to do IMO is fail to take precautions or plan for failures, and then rely on others to come to their rescue. Especially when those rescuers are putting themselves at risk.
Apparently he’s not the only one who knew… others just ignored or were in some serious denialWow. This is stunning, especially considering his history of risk taking. He knew.
try one finger (dot) and then four fingers (dash)- improvised but....Re: Morse Code
What I want to know is how one could do dots and dashes by banging on titanium or other metal in the sub.
I can only manage to make banging sounds on metal that have longer intervals (the dash?)
Are any of you more coordinated than I am?
He held their lives in his hands .....Apparently he’s not the only one who knew… others just ignored or were in some serious denial