Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #4


THE UNITED STATES Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York has contacted former OceanGate employees and expedition members as part of an investigatory probe, WIRED has learned from multiple sources.
 

The involvement of the Justice Department suggests that it's a criminal matter, and coming from the Southern District of NY they could be looking into financial issues. The article also mentions the involvement of the Postal Inspection Service.

From the article:
The New York office has a strong history of complex financial investigations, and the US Postal Inspection Service also works on fraud and money laundering.

The article describes a complex corporate structure in place:
OceanGate actually comprises multiple entities, including at least three for-profit US companies, one Bahamian corporation, and a nonprofit foundation dedicated to oceanographic research and education. Untangling the flow of money and debt between these could be a complex affair.

I wonder if Rush was using the nonprofit for some not-quite-legal financial transactions. Considering his views on safety regulations, perhaps he was equally cavalier about tax evasion.
 
I found this interesting extended interview with James Cameron done by 60 Minutes Australia. According to James Cameron, the implosion was probably the result of one of two things: 1. The carbon fiber haul failed due to cyclic fatigue or 2. The use of dissimilar materials caused the implosion, using titanium end caps with a carbon fiber haul was a poor design. In my opinion, I think it was probably option 2 because of how the wreck pictures looked that have been shared with the public. Cameron said it was unlikely the acrylic viewport was the reason for the implosion due to the idea that when the implosion happened, he thinks the implosion blew the acrylic viewport out and not inwards. I agree with James Cameron that I think Oceangate thought everything was ok once they dived with the submersible Titan to the Titanic shipwreck and were successful.

 
For me it is almost impossible to conceive of what this was like for them. We don't know if they really knew it was about to happen. But just the fact that you are alive one moment and then in a fraction of a second totally obliterated. I hope they didn't know it was coming.
 

At least now we know the approximate time of the implosion, 9:34am on June 18th, 2023.

From the pictures I have seen of the wreckage, it looks more like something happened at the front of the submersible or that is where the carbon fiber gave way was at the front part of the submersible. Since getting into the submersible required being bolted in, I wondered about that design. Did maybe one of the bolts holding the titanium door break and this allowed pressure in that caused the implosion? What was the most likely cause?
 
At least now we know the approximate time of the implosion, 9:34am on June 18th, 2023.

From the pictures I have seen of the wreckage, it looks more like something happened at the front of the submersible or that is where the carbon fiber gave way was at the front part of the submersible. Since getting into the submersible required being bolted in, I wondered about that design. Did maybe one of the bolts holding the titanium door break and this allowed pressure in that caused the implosion? What was the most likely cause?

I don't think it was the bolts. They didn't pierce the pressure vessel, so even if one broke off it shouldn't make a difference. And the external pressure would have kept the front in place anyways.

What I recall from the Coast Guard hearing was that they had identified three or four potential weaknesses that could have led to the implosion:
  • The strength of the carbon fiber and the way it was applied unevenly leaving gaps between the layers
  • The joint between the hull and the titanium rings
  • The acrylic window which wasn't rated to the depths they were going
All of these failed, but I don't think they've yet determined which was the precipitating event.
 
I don't think it was the bolts. They didn't pierce the pressure vessel, so even if one broke off it shouldn't make a difference. And the external pressure would have kept the front in place anyways.

What I recall from the Coast Guard hearing was that they had identified three or four potential weaknesses that could have led to the implosion:
  • The strength of the carbon fiber and the way it was applied unevenly leaving gaps between the layers
  • The joint between the hull and the titanium rings
  • The acrylic window which wasn't rated to the depths they were going
All of these failed, but I don't think they've yet determined which was the precipitating event.
My guess, and it is just a guess, is that it was either where the carbon fitted to the titanium, or that the carbon fiber hull itself just gave way after being weakened from making several dives before. I don't know how much testing has been done on cylindrical carbon hulls like this to see how they stand up to and weaken from repeated dives.
 
I don't think it was the bolts. They didn't pierce the pressure vessel, so even if one broke off it shouldn't make a difference. And the external pressure would have kept the front in place anyways.

What I recall from the Coast Guard hearing was that they had identified three or four potential weaknesses that could have led to the implosion:
  • The strength of the carbon fiber and the way it was applied unevenly leaving gaps between the layers
  • The joint between the hull and the titanium rings
  • The acrylic window which wasn't rated to the depths they were going
All of these failed, but I don't think they've yet determined which was the precipitating event.
I thought it could also be the acrylic window at one point in time because I wondered if colder water would cause a failure. According to what I read, this was going to be the coldest water temperature they had dived in, and I thought that might factor in somehow.

According to the report by David Lockridge, the chief test pilot engineer, he was worried about O-ring seals and that also made me wonder about the cold due to what happened with the Challenger space shuttle explosion in 1986. I agree it could be any number of factors that caused the implosion. It will be interesting to see if a definite cause is ever determined.
 
All the following MOO: though it is the opinion of a PE with experience in pressure vessel design and maritime conditions.

The hull failed. Greater than 99% chance the site of initial failure was in the carbon fiber. The collapse was highly immediate because if water had simply intruded past a joint and the vessel filled over say, a 5-second period, the noise detected would have been of a different nature.

With composite material brought to shape with the methods utilized, there were always defects in the form of voids and interlaminar gaps and inclusions. Tighter control over temperatures, fiber tensions and guidance, fiber diameter variance, bonding medium thickness and chemistry, rotational speed, adhesive promoters and their distribution, and a host of other variables would reduce these effects. To rationalize how strenuously a manufacturer needs to manage such conditions, would require a great deal of testing and analysis. Manufacturing controls also means investment in the equipment and controls as well as higher quality (controlled) raw materials which would be required to reduce those variables to a tolerable level. For a deep submersible, that tolerable level is very high....the risk and consequence has been exemplified by this event.

For the Titan specifically: we know some of the raw fiber had reached its shelf life and been downgraded and sold by Boeing. We know that at least one prior hull made scary noises at depths nowhere near those of the Titanic. We know that the sonic warning system was looking for "pops" from the hull. Those pops were presumably caused when the matrix filling the space between 2 voids cracked. One pop, expected. A hundred? Might be tolerable if the voids were small enough and close together. Those would be low volume pops. If the voids were large and spread out...3 loud pops may have been the limit. Obviously this mechanism is cumulative. How many pops, and at what frequency volume and proximity, would represent time to condemn the hull? Who knows? How much does it cost to find out?

For a homogeneous material, for instance steel plate: the cost-risk-benefit has been done over many years and is engrained into codes and material standards. Similarly for welding and forming where its is applied to join steel components to form a shape. Steel is an elastic, fracture tough material, but it is susceptible to fatigue. Even though steel had been used many hundreds of years before the Liberty ships were manufactured, it was only after the failure of some of those hulls that the subject of fatigue combined with the effects of temperature variances and cyclic immersion was detail studied....in the 1940's. The point is, we continue to learn; and it sometimes takes a disaster to prompt us into paying all the dues that lead to better comprehension.

There is an extensive report about the Challenger disaster; and this is a whole lot of information about the machine and the flight that was not in any report. That time, it wasn't the technical folks who took the chance; they advised against the launch. Their shortcoming was, they could not specifically say that a small deviation from the design parameters could make the launch unsafe. They did say, they could not trust the design to work outside the prescribed limits when all their testing and QC was focused on conditions within the design envelope.

Summarizing: the reality for the investigators in this case is multi-tiered. Should they act like the acrylic port was not the culprit, then they encourage others to apply them in spite of manufacturers recommendations and rating. Should they conclude that one of the joints failed, they would not discourage others from developing an alternate joint design for a CF hull. To definitively blame the CF hull, would require a lot of investigation of the parts scattered on the ocean floor; and a lot of analysis and lab work of the type that Oceangate did not do. The latter effort is very expensive and to what end?

There has been lots of publicity on this disaster and its causes. One would believe that at this stage no tourist is going to get into a CF vessel to explore at depth....The realistic conclusion is, first, don't use CF. Then pay your dues to design, quality control and real world testing....as well as certification. Those were the expenses that were being circumvented by the "alternate approach"; which led to the passengers appelation, "Mission Tech". A conjured bypass to the rules of commerce, compounded by a limited comprehension of the rules of science.
 
All the following MOO: though it is the opinion of a PE with experience in pressure vessel design and maritime conditions.

The hull failed. Greater than 99% chance the site of initial failure was in the carbon fiber. The collapse was highly immediate because if water had simply intruded past a joint and the vessel filled over say, a 5-second period, the noise detected would have been of a different nature.

With composite material brought to shape with the methods utilized, there were always defects in the form of voids and interlaminar gaps and inclusions. Tighter control over temperatures, fiber tensions and guidance, fiber diameter variance, bonding medium thickness and chemistry, rotational speed, adhesive promoters and their distribution, and a host of other variables would reduce these effects. To rationalize how strenuously a manufacturer needs to manage such conditions, would require a great deal of testing and analysis. Manufacturing controls also means investment in the equipment and controls as well as higher quality (controlled) raw materials which would be required to reduce those variables to a tolerable level. For a deep submersible, that tolerable level is very high....the risk and consequence has been exemplified by this event.

For the Titan specifically: we know some of the raw fiber had reached its shelf life and been downgraded and sold by Boeing. We know that at least one prior hull made scary noises at depths nowhere near those of the Titanic. We know that the sonic warning system was looking for "pops" from the hull. Those pops were presumably caused when the matrix filling the space between 2 voids cracked. One pop, expected. A hundred? Might be tolerable if the voids were small enough and close together. Those would be low volume pops. If the voids were large and spread out...3 loud pops may have been the limit. Obviously this mechanism is cumulative. How many pops, and at what frequency volume and proximity, would represent time to condemn the hull? Who knows? How much does it cost to find out?

For a homogeneous material, for instance steel plate: the cost-risk-benefit has been done over many years and is engrained into codes and material standards. Similarly for welding and forming where its is applied to join steel components to form a shape. Steel is an elastic, fracture tough material, but it is susceptible to fatigue. Even though steel had been used many hundreds of years before the Liberty ships were manufactured, it was only after the failure of some of those hulls that the subject of fatigue combined with the effects of temperature variances and cyclic immersion was detail studied....in the 1940's. The point is, we continue to learn; and it sometimes takes a disaster to prompt us into paying all the dues that lead to better comprehension.

There is an extensive report about the Challenger disaster; and this is a whole lot of information about the machine and the flight that was not in any report. That time, it wasn't the technical folks who took the chance; they advised against the launch. Their shortcoming was, they could not specifically say that a small deviation from the design parameters could make the launch unsafe. They did say, they could not trust the design to work outside the prescribed limits when all their testing and QC was focused on conditions within the design envelope.

Summarizing: the reality for the investigators in this case is multi-tiered. Should they act like the acrylic port was not the culprit, then they encourage others to apply them in spite of manufacturers recommendations and rating. Should they conclude that one of the joints failed, they would not discourage others from developing an alternate joint design for a CF hull. To definitively blame the CF hull, would require a lot of investigation of the parts scattered on the ocean floor; and a lot of analysis and lab work of the type that Oceangate did not do. The latter effort is very expensive and to what end?

There has been lots of publicity on this disaster and its causes. One would believe that at this stage no tourist is going to get into a CF vessel to explore at depth....The realistic conclusion is, first, don't use CF. Then pay your dues to design, quality control and real world testing....as well as certification. Those were the expenses that were being circumvented by the "alternate approach"; which led to the passengers appelation, "Mission Tech". A conjured bypass to the rules of commerce, compounded by a limited comprehension of the rules of science.
I agree except for the Challenger explosion. The project manager was so concerned about the safety of the Challenger launch he thought it might not even get off the ground and blow up right on the pad. I think the explanation of "We eventually gave NASA what they wanted to hear" tells me everything I need to know about the decision-making pressure involved in the decision.

I think there is a very good similarity between Challenger, Columbia, and the Titan submersible. In my opinion, the fact that there were numerous missions that were successful gave each of the groups a reason to believe that the next mission would be no different.
 
I agree except for the Challenger explosion. The project manager was so concerned about the safety of the Challenger launch he thought it might not even get off the ground and blow up right on the pad. I think the explanation of "We eventually gave NASA what they wanted to hear" tells me everything I need to know about the decision-making pressure involved in the decision.

I think there is a very good similarity between Challenger, Columbia, and the Titan submersible. In my opinion, the fact that there were numerous missions that were successful gave each of the groups a reason to believe that the next mission would be no different.

"Repetition fosters complacency" is the bane of any production system. While involved with due diligence as applied to acquisitions, the question "Why do you do that, that way?" was almost always answered with "Because we have always done it that way". Normally delivered with considerable squirming, discomfiture and side eye.

RE: Challenger....Have you read any of the seminar transcripts, testimonials and articles from Roger Boisjoly and Bob Ebeling?
I may not have made it clear previously: the individual engineers at MT had established that the existing joint/seal design had serious shortcomings whose severity was highly determinant by both ambient and reactant temperatures as well as thrust conditions....That by inspection of the joint and seal following prior launches as well as limited in house testing of the existing design. The "endorsement of launch" decision came from the Vendor's management group of very limited size. The VP of Engineering, member of that group, indicated that the limited investigation that had just been presented to them, indicated high risk and was cause for them to NOT endorse the launch decision. The GM told that VP to remove his engineering hat and put on his management hat....Probably had something to do with the vendor group's decision to endorse.

as example: Pre-Disaster Background | Online Ethics.
Missing some of the diagrams....

Shortly thereafter, all future disclosures by NASA and vendors went through the political sieve prior to delivery.

Been there. Got the scars. MOO throughout.
 
Meanwhile, Netflix is releasing their documentary on the Titan implosion sometime this year…

The upcoming 2025 documentary film Titan focuses on this notorious incident that dominated headlines as it examines OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, his quest to become the next billionaire innovator, and the doomed underwater endeavor that forced the world to reconsider the price of ambition in the depths of the ocean.

 
"Repetition fosters complacency" is the bane of any production system. While involved with due diligence as applied to acquisitions, the question "Why do you do that, that way?" was almost always answered with "Because we have always done it that way". Normally delivered with considerable squirming, discomfiture and side eye.

RE: Challenger....Have you read any of the seminar transcripts, testimonials and articles from Roger Boisjoly and Bob Ebeling?
I may not have made it clear previously: the individual engineers at MT had established that the existing joint/seal design had serious shortcomings whose severity was highly determinant by both ambient and reactant temperatures as well as thrust conditions....That by inspection of the joint and seal following prior launches as well as limited in house testing of the existing design. The "endorsement of launch" decision came from the Vendor's management group of very limited size. The VP of Engineering, member of that group, indicated that the limited investigation that had just been presented to them, indicated high risk and was cause for them to NOT endorse the launch decision. The GM told that VP to remove his engineering hat and put on his management hat....Probably had something to do with the vendor group's decision to endorse.

as example: Pre-Disaster Background | Online Ethics.
Missing some of the diagrams....

Shortly thereafter, all future disclosures by NASA and vendors went through the political sieve prior to delivery.

Been there. Got the scars. MOO throughout.
I watched the video below. I have heard the names you reference in your post in that video. They even say in the video that it was management who made the decision to launch. I did look at the attachment you posted about the background info, but what do I not understand about the Challenger explosion decision making?

The lesson of the video seemed to be that when you are in an organization, even when you have facts and figures in front of you that suggests risk, that management sometimes makes decisions that are unsafe because they fall back on routine and want to get things done. The management made a decision based on not having enough data because they have people above them too. I would agree with the video that is probably what happened concerning the decision making with both Challenger and Columbia.

I am not saying that the NASA project managers for both Challenger and Columbia were correct. I think, like the Titan submersible, they took a lot of risks even when there were signs that the vehicle could fail. I only read about safety criticism of the Titan submersible and Oceangate after the Titan disaster. It turns out there had been many warnings over the years.

 
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Whatever happened after the coast guard hearings was a final report released? I remember watching some of the hearings on youtube. Dont recall ever hearing anything else after they wrapped though.
 
Whatever happened after the coast guard hearings was a final report released? I remember watching some of the hearings on youtube. Dont recall ever hearing anything else after they wrapped though.
I wondered the same thing. Did they ever come to a conclusive answer about what caused the Titan submersible implosion? I do not remember a final report being released either. Without having actual facts all we can do is speculate about what happened based on the pictures released.

From the pictures it looked like whatever happened took place towards the front part of the submersible near the titanium door that opens to allow the passengers inside.
 

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