Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

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  • #761
Known generally as speed cameras, the type and number of them varies by state.

In New South Wales (capital city is Sydney), increasingly they appear at traffic lights were they are designated as red light and speed cameras. It is also common for them to be in school zones where the speed is limited to 40 km/h at start and end of school days. In this state it is current government policy to signpost their presence (which, oddly, does not stop many people being fined for speeding past them).

We also have mobile cameras which are moved around to various 'hotspots'. Those also must be sign posted.

Those two types are not filming continuously, only when triggered by an offending vehicle.

Then there are cameras on gantries for motorways used for chasing up people whose vehicle does not 'ping' the toll charging mechanisms. Those cameras have been used by police to track wanted people.

Gantry cameras record every vehicle that passes them.

Cameras also are being used increasingly for detecting end to end speeding along motorways. Initially put in place for trucks, the government is now planning to widen that to all vehicles.

There are also now fixed position and movable unannounced (no warning signs) seat belt and mobile phone check cameras. I gather they also record every car that passes by them.

Apart from all of the above, there are lots of traffic management cameras along major roads which are monitored in real time by the roads authority. I don't know if that video is recorded -- it would require humongous storage methinks.



Tbh I'm not sure of the exact purpose of the British ones, they're certainly not all speed cameras and I suspect most of the ones used in the examples I gave weren't.

We obviously have a lot based on motorways and toll roads and the like, but the ones in the programs I saw just seemed to be at random parts of the road and intersections etc.

If they only keep the footage for a month, that pretty much rules out any of what they were looking for apart from maybe the ones after she left the hospital the first time although I'm not sure how quickly official criminal proceedings started.
 
  • #762
Talking of things I've missed, there are a couple of things that people talk about that I seem to have missed. Hopefully, somebody can clue me in.

People refer to a police interview, where I think the implication is that she was giving 'no comment' answers. I don't seem to have seen this?

I've also heard mention of an interview of some sort that Erin gave, is this just the one where she was outside of her house or is there another one because I've seen that she said she regrets giving the 'no comment' answers.
 
  • #763
She worked as an air traffic controller for about a year. She also worked as an accountant prior to their marriage.

Erin Patterson, who's been accused of murder over a deadly mushroom meal, was a Melbourne air traffic controller in 2001 until abruptly leaving in 2002.


Before their marriage, he said, she worked as an accountant and a qualified air traffic controller. She loved to learn and study, he said. She undertook a veterinary science course and also did some legal studies work.

'Abruptly leaving', what is the implication here?
 
  • #764
I have noticed that a lot of us on here seem to have only joined when this case became world famous. Welcome, and please stick around! I would be really interested to know (because that's what I do!) exactly how many. Could a Moderator please tell us, or is that not allowed? Or is it too difficult to calculate?

This case was world famous pretty much straight away. In the UK, it was big news when it happened purely because of the bizarre nature of the person who cooked it being the only one who didn't get seriously ill. It wasn't quite headline news, but it was part of the main news coverage.

Naturally, it didn't stay in the headlines. As I follow the NRL, I've seen the odd headline on Australian news sites although they're usually behind a paywall.

There is a podcast that I've listened to by the Daily Mail called The Trial. I've listened to the Lucy Letby, Lord Lucan and Brianna Ghey ones and noticed they were doing an Erin Patterson son so it piqued my interest. At this point, I knew pretty much nothing else than was known in the first few weeks. I'd certainly heard about the husband getting ill for instance.

I joined this forum based on wanting to talk to people about my thoughts about the case. I have a couple of people who know about it, but they're not as interested as I am. It's been very useful, and you find out a lot of things you wouldn't get just off a podcast, as well as interesting insights that you wouldn't get either.
 
  • #765
  • #766
If anyone is on Reddit, you might get a laugh at the poetry and rap lyrics you can find on r/DeathCapDinner.

Saw a post there that made a good point, about how she said she tasted the duxelle and was bland so she added mushrooms from the container. She's suggesting that's where the poison came from. But she surely would have tasted the duxelle again after she added the container mushrooms. So she should have been sick before anybody else.
 
  • #767
Saw a post there that made a good point, about how she said she tasted the duxelle and was bland so she added mushrooms from the container. She's suggesting that's where the poison came from. But she surely would have tasted the duxelle again after she added the container mushrooms. So she should have been sick before anybody else.

This is one of the great inconsistencies with her account. I'm not sure she was ever asked about if she tasted it again.

Innocent or guilty, I'm pretty sure we can call bull on this account. If innocent, I think she used foraged mushrooms from the very beginning and has has built a house of cards in trying to make herself less to blame.

If guilty, it seems very likely she added them as a powder. After all, they didn't find any actual DC mushrooms in the duxelle.
 
  • #768
Tbh I'm not sure of the exact purpose of the British ones, they're certainly not all speed cameras and I suspect most of the ones used in the examples I gave weren't.

We obviously have a lot based on motorways and toll roads and the like, but the ones in the programs I saw just seemed to be at random parts of the road and intersections etc.

If they only keep the footage for a month, that pretty much rules out any of what they were looking for apart from maybe the ones after she left the hospital the first time although I'm not sure how quickly official criminal proceedings started.

As a verified expert on British crime dramas, they have cameras on every single street corner in the nation, except for when inconvenient to plot purposes.

I feel like if I'm in the UK I would always be thinking I have to look good for the camera.
 
  • #769
This is one of the great inconsistencies with her account. I'm not sure she was ever asked about if she tasted it again.

Innocent or guilty, I'm pretty sure we can call bull on this account. If innocent, I think she used foraged mushrooms from the very beginning and has has built a house of cards in trying to make herself less to blame.

If guilty, it seems very likely she added them as a powder. After all, they didn't find any actual DC mushrooms in the duxelle.
I agree. If she innocently misidentified DCs and there was a possibility she'd served them to her guests, MOO she'd have been horrified that her carelessness led to four people being in hospital gravely ill. She would have jumped through hoops to get her kids (and herself) tested, even if they were only in the same room as the toxin. She might have ended up in some sort of legal trouble, but at least it wouldn't have been a charge of murder. MOO
 
  • #770
'Abruptly leaving', what is the implication here?

Good question. Could be for any reason but I suppose the word abruptly is implying fired / walked off the job / left in some form of dispute or at least quit without having given advance notice, could be for any reason, family emergency, medical situation etc.

JMO
 
  • #771
As a verified expert on British crime dramas, they have cameras on every single street corner in the nation, except for when inconvenient to plot purposes.

I feel like if I'm in the UK I would always be thinking I have to look good for the camera.
Haha.

The examples I was based on were true crime, they are usually able to catch the cars on numerous cameras.
 
  • #772
She would have jumped through hoops to get her kids (and herself) tested, even if they were only in the same room as the toxin.

This is another of the great inconsistencies. Once she realised how much danger they were in, it doesn't make sense that she'd have been so defiant. Simply suggesting a history of not trusting doctors isn't enough.

Most of us don't buy the idea that her children ever ate the meal so they can be easily explained, but the idea she wouldn't realise how much danger she was in makes very little sense. She would surely be begging to be tested etc.
 
  • #773
...As I follow the NRL, I've seen the odd headline on Australian news sites although they're usually behind a paywall.
...

What is the NRL?
 
  • #774
  • #775
What is the NRL?

Apologies, I figured I was talking mostly to Australians tbh who would know what I meant. Yeh it's Australian (and NZ, <modsnip - colloquialism took the thread off topic) Rugby League.
 
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  • #776
Today is closing statements day!!!
 
  • #777
Okay, let's go with your Theory: Erin intends to make 4-5 guests 10-30% dead.

She collects the Deathcaps in Loch on April 28 (which, as you've pointed out can't be proven... the data isn't clear etc), and bought the dehydrator two hours later (This has been proven 100%... It's a little more than a coincidence that it happens right after the "possible foraging", no?).

We know from photos she's collected 500g of Deathcaps. That's enough Deathcaps to make 10x adults dead. And I mean properly dead. Not just 10-30% dead. But hey, maybe she collected a few extra just to be sure.

We have the photos in evidence that she weighed them on her digital scales, and weighed them again after dehydrating them (mushrooms are 90% water, so it best to be very clear on the weights... you want to get the quantities perfectly right when you're trying to make your inlaws 10-30% dead).

Erin then devises her plan to lour the lunch guests with her sudden case of terminal ovarian cancer of the elbow / laparoscopic band surgery / liposuction at a dermatology clinic for which she doesn't know how to tell the children and thinks she might need some help dropping them off to the bus stop each morning.

The guests all agree to turn up to their 10-30% murders except for Simon, but never mind, there's an extra Beef Wellington in the oven just for him in case he stops by to say hello when he brings the kids back from the movies.

The guest's then eat their lunches and end up 10-30% dead.

Are you still reading? I hope so because this is the part of the plot where I'm really struggling to imagine what Erin plans to do next. What has she achieved, exactly, by making her guests 10-30% dead?
Or if we consider the actual outcome, she made her 4 guests 75% dead. So where exactly did she go wrong?

Was it the measurements?

How do you even weigh the correct amount of Deathcap to make your victim 10-30% dead, when the most commonly available figures are the quantities of 30-50 grams, the amount required to make an adult properly dead?

-

Thanks for this detailed reply. I wouldn't want people to make the mistake that I'm wedded to this idea, I'm just trying to make the best of the available evidence and it is a working theory based on if she is guilty, I certainly don't claim to know all the answers. A lot of people just seem to say 'yeh she wanted them all dead' without considering the implications of this opinion.

In my theory, she didn't have a detailed plan of how to use the Deathcaps, and didn't measure them out to calculate a dose etc. She only had a vague idea of how poisonous they were, and an opportunity presented itself where she was able to get some; she wasn't seeking them out. A lot is made of the measuring of the DC, but in the trial we have seen her posting to her friends about how much she was enjoying the dehydrating process and how much it had reduced them by. She didn't only weigh and photograph the DC mushrooms. Does it really make more sense that she's plotting a detailed murder but posting all this information to her friends?

As for what she hoped would happen, she was expecting for them to get sick and to then be able to exploit this situation by either being part of a shared tragedy, or by being able to care for them afterwards. We know already that she was the sort of person who would lie about having cancer for personal gain; that is an extreme situation. This is how she benefits from this situation. She's a woman with cancer who is running around after these people who have gotten mysteriously sick. Again, it makes no sense that people wouldn't know she had cancer, they could have text Simon straight after the meal.

Where she went wrong was simple: she didn't realise how much dehydrating would concentrate the dose and not only how much it would accelerate the symptoms but also how lethal it would be. As I've pointed out, she isn't necessarily thorough like everybody claims she is. This also explains her subsequent panicked hiding of evidence instead of a much better planned cover up.

Now my turn to turn the tables on your presumed account of guilt! I seem to hear a lot of replies about how murder isn't logical, and how people often don't plan for the aftermath but to me these seem like a bit of a cop out answer that is asserted rather than explained. Yes, I can imagine this is the case for a crime of passion or an opportunistic murder.

In this theory, Erin has planned a mass murder over the course of a couple of months. She has sought out DC mushrooms, carefully measured out a lethal dose, created a pretense for the meal and then committed the murder only to not consider what would happen next? On top of this, we actually know that she must have considered what happened next because she already started lying about being sick herself before anybody went to hospital.

What did Erin seek to gain from murdering these 4 people, considering that most people think she also wanted to kill Simon?

Also, how did she get it so wrong? How did she not consider that 3 people dying (with the intention of 5) at a meal she'd hosted would have serious negative consequences for her and her family? Even if they didn't catch the DC, of course she would be suspected, how did she miss this as a true crime fan?

Did she really think that a bit of gastro would absolve her of any suspicion when everybody else got seriously ill or died?

Again, I'm only considering likelihoods. We can't discount that she murdered for the thrill of it, or was filled with such hatred that she wanted them dead no matter the consequence, or was so arrogant she thought everybody would believe her story. It just doesn't seem very likely based on what we know to be the case.
 
  • #778
This is another of the great inconsistencies. Once she realised how much danger they were in, it doesn't make sense that she'd have been so defiant. Simply suggesting a history of not trusting doctors isn't enough.

Most of us don't buy the idea that her children ever ate the meal so they can be easily explained, but the idea she wouldn't realise how much danger she was in makes very little sense. She would surely be begging to be tested etc.

Logically speaking, if all the people who ate lunch in her house were coming down with a life-threatening illness and on the verge of death, shouldn't she have been absolutely petrified for herself, her children, her dog etc?

If she was innocent and knew for certain that she hadn't caused any harm with anything she cooked, simply using store bought ingredients and following a recipe, she'd be frantic with anxiety about all other potential sources of a toxin, fearful that someone was out to kill her too, kill them all, and probably too scared to go back inside her own home.

JMO
 
  • #779
BBM. I'm not sure if you've ever served on a jury (I've served on four in New York City). Jury instructions make it clear that the prosecution does not have to show a motivation for the crime. Reasonable doubt isn't "I don't know why this person would commit this crime, so I have reasonable doubt that they didn't do it." Reasonable doubt refers to whether the prosecution has proved their case, and a reasonable person wouldn't have serious doubts about the person's guilt.
The case I linked here ended with a plea deal (and it's local to me), but it involved a woman in her 20s fatally pushing an 87-year-old woman. She had no motive; she didn't know the older woman. Would you have had "reasonable doubt" of her guilt merely because you couldn't find a motive? In this case, EP MOO killed several of her estranged relatives about whom she'd complained about on social media, and wished she could be rid of them.


Apologies but I explained elsewhere that we're really talking about two different things at the same time on this thread.

1) if she should be found guilty legally
2) if she is guilty, why she did it and what she was hoping for.

I completely accept that for option 1 they don't need to know anything about motive. That said, it would help the case if there was an obvious motive, which is why they've tried to introduce the messages from Facebook. I personally don't find these very convincing at all.
 
  • #780
Perhaps it'll come down to math.

EP herself talked about dehydrated mushrooms, surprised with how mushy they remained.

If EP further pulverized foraged mushrooms, why??????? For what reason would anyone need powdered mushrooms????? Dehydrated mushrooms, sure. But powdered????

IF EP knew the number (how much DC a person would have to ingest for it to be fatal), what does that mean for her innocence/guilt?

IF she weighed foraged mushrooms as gathered, then again after dehydrating, did she weigh them a third time, as a powder?

Was it 50g? I can't recall the fatal amount but imagine:

The number of while mushrooms to achieve that weight
Compare to the volume of dehydrated mushrooms to reach the same weight
Compare to the volume of powdered mushrooms to reach that weight. Yikes. Adding more mushrooms at each level to account for weight losses (loss of water weight) what's left has the potential to be soooooooo concentrated. And as a powder, no delay for the stomach to digest it, nope. Powder, straight to the blood system, straight to the vulnerable organs....

As it stands, I can't think of a reason to weigh dehydrated mushrooms (outside of experiment in which case I question the experiment). If a recipe called for mushrooms, you'd need to rehydrate your dehydrated mushrooms to reach the proper weight.

I smell something that smells worse than DC mushrooms.

JMO
 
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