Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*

[katydid23]

Maybe Erin told Simon about the blind test she did putting dried mushrooms in her kids muffins, as if to say, well if there was anything wrong with the. mushrooms the kids would have got sick back then?

Maybe. I was trying to understand why she was telling him that.

That morning, Simon would have learned that the doctors had diagnosed the family members with 'suspected mushroom poisoning.' So he must have been asking Erin about her lunch recipe?

So maybe she began talking 'innocently' about baking with mushrooms harmlessly, like it was no big deal.

 

[MrJ]

I also wanted to add: why would anyone be on their phone while child protection is asking you if you allegedly foraged mushrooms used in the dish?

"Cripps says she asked Patterson if she picked the mushrooms used in the dish.

Prosecutor Sarah Lenthall asks Cripps if Patterson answered the question.

Cripps says she did not. She says Patterson was on her phone when she asked the question."

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bats]

I think that they could see Don had liver damage, and they would have erred on the side of caution by giving Gail (and Heather?) the correct medications as soon as they could - if they knew that foraged mushrooms were involved.

But they were never given that choice, were they? Crucial information that could have sped up the treatments. Sped it up by 12 hours, at least.

Remembering that Don ate 1½ portions of the beef wellington. So his liver damage showed up first. He was much sicker, right away.

Ian had a fighting chance, and succeeded in living. Gail and Heather might have had the same fighting chance if they were treated accordingly. Their body weight was likely less than Ian's, so their bodies were shutting down by the time they received the correct medications.

I truly think (and hope) this is taken into consideration by the jury.

imo

Does that mean that doctors would be treating the patients differently if they knew the mushrooms were foraged as opposed to being bought from a little grocery store?
Even by Erin saying she foraged mushrooms, there is still a possibilty they're not death cap mushrooms isn't there? My point is that the doctors have the same information to work with, regardless.
Perhaps I'm missing something, which is not unusual...

 

[Porky1]

There’s no reasonable

It is not ideal, but it is my assumption that they were desperately trying to save lives. IMO

This makes no sense. Hospital staff managing care were not responsible for testing toxins in samples.

 

[Porky1]

In fairness, when the mycologist did this it was just a simple public health matter. There was no criminal investigation yet, so the mushrooms weren't considered evidence.

I disagree.

Four people were in a serious state and two with liver degradation. It wasn’t a simple health matter. When they sent Police to gather samples from bin(s), shared ambulance and then an urgent taxi, it was considered urgent and samples needed to be protected from further contamination and potential tampering.

Iam sure Police suspected there was a possibility that it would need a thorough investigation, very early, as there were inconsistencies in her responses and the fact that her vitals were fine even though she claimed to eat the same meal.

 

[katydid23]

She's made it pretty clear throughout this ordeal that she cares only about herself.
I think it's debatable whether or not she even cares about her own children given the trauma she intended to put them through by killing their entire family at once. (allegedly)

If she truly cared about her children, she would have nurtured their relationship with their father. Instead she seemed to alienate her son especially, from his dad, by telling him distorted versions of facts.

And taking away their only living grandparents is unforgiveably cruel.

I'm going to hazard a guess that they know she couldn't lie straight in bed, but she's entitled to a fair trial either way and someone needs to represent her.

 

[JBowie]

I truly think (and hope) this is taken into consideration by the jury.

IMO, it will be and the prosecution needs to drive it home in their summing up.

 

[MsMarple]

I think that they could see Don had liver damage, and they would have erred on the side of caution by giving Gail (and Heather?) the correct medications as soon as they could - if they knew that foraged mushrooms were involved.

But they were never given that choice, were they? Crucial information that could have sped up the treatments. Sped it up by 12 hours, at least.

Remembering that Don ate 1½ portions of the beef wellington. So his liver damage showed up first. He was much sicker, right away.

Ian had a fighting chance, and succeeded in living. Gail and Heather might have had the same fighting chance if they were treated accordingly. Their body weight was likely less than Ian's, so their bodies were shutting down by the time they received the correct medications.

I truly think (and hope) this is taken into consideration by the jury.

imo

I think there was a delay in diagnosing possible death cap poisoning due to a lack of accurate information. From testimony:

Expert says Erin Patterson's medical files suggest she was ill — as it happened

Erin Patterson is on trial charged with the murders of three relatives who died after eating a meal she prepared which contained poisonous mushrooms. Follow the trial in our live blog.

www.abc.net.au

On July 31, 2023, Dr Truong was the on-call mycologist and received a call from Dr Muldoon at Monash Health (who we heard from yesterday).

Dr Truong says she was informed about a possible poisoning case involving four people and was asked to help identify mushrooms.

Dr Truong says she told Dr Muldoon it was "probably impossible" to be death cap mushrooms, due to them only growing in the wild and being unable to be cultivated.

"I also told her there were absolutely no sightings of death cap mushrooms during the last months," Dr Truong says.

"Based on the information I received, it was highly unlikely to be a case of death cap mushroom poisoning."

 

[Jess D]

I also wanted to add: why would anyone be on their phone while child protection is asking you if you allegedly foraged mushrooms used in the dish?

"Cripps says she asked Patterson if she picked the mushrooms used in the dish.

Prosecutor Sarah Lenthall asks Cripps if Patterson answered the question.

Cripps says she did not. She says Patterson was on her phone when she asked the question."

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

She should have asked Erin the question again when she got off her phone.

 

[Jess D]

Does that mean that doctors would be treating the patients differently if they knew the mushrooms were foraged as opposed to being bought from a little grocery store?
Even by Erin saying she foraged mushrooms, there is still a possibilty they're not death cap mushrooms isn't there? My point is that the doctors have the same information to work with, regardless.
Perhaps I'm missing something, which is not unusual...

Yes, but they'd know that they weren't everyday edible field mushrooms.

 

[MrJ]

She should have asked Erin the question again when she got off her phone.

that is true but the bigger question is why be on the phone 'looking' for where you bought the mushrooms when she allegedly foraged them? I wish she had stopped allegedly lying and tell the truth. JMO

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Thanks @SouthAussie !

I guess what I'm saying is...
If it was an accidental poisoning, the doctors firstly need to work out what is wrong with the patients. Pretty quickly they're asking what have these people eaten? Equally as quickly, they narrow the lunch down as a possible cause for their illness.

If they received accurate information about the ingredients of the lunch soon after working out that the lunch was the cause, they still don't know if the patients have death cap poisoning until the left overs are tested. So, regardless of whether Erin lied or not, the doctors are still dealing with the same scenario aren't they?
Or is there evidence that says if the doctors knew the mushrooms were foraged they would have quickly administered an antidote, whether or not they knew the mushrooms were death caps?

I don't necessarily think that you are dealing with the same scenario. It all comes down to decisions made on likelihood. The likelihood of store bought mushrooms being tainted with death caps? - low. The likelihood of foraged mushrooms (in a region that has death cap mushrooms, which can be hard to distinguish from edible mushrooms) being death caps? - high, or at least higher. As medical staff, you make decisions on treatment based on symptoms, blood work etc before you know for sure what is wrong with the patient. You get it right some of the time, others you change direction because of what presents itself, and sometimes you get it wrong too. The likelihood of getting it right improves with more information.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - chances are it's a duck.

 

[Porky1]

The leftover food was located at the bottom of her outdoor red-lidded bin in an “seeping” brown paper Woolworths bag, the officer said.
“It was primarily maybe one-and-a-bit beef wellingtons

I find it odd that the leftovers were in a paper Woolworths bag and placed in the external bin. Was she hoping that the toxins would seep and mix with other bin remnants, prior to any potential testing? And not the kitchen tidy with a plastic liner which would be used by most if hosting a meal. Also easier to locate.

Backing up the Woolworths purchase?

 

[Jess D]

that is true but the bigger question is why be on the phone 'looking' for where you bought the mushrooms when she allegedly foraged them? I wish she had stopped allegedly lying and tell the truth. JMO

Exactly!

 

[HoneyBunOne]

that is true but the bigger question is why be on the phone 'looking' for where you bought the mushrooms when she allegedly foraged them? I wish she had stopped allegedly lying and tell the truth. JMO

No "allegedly lying" about it in this case - she has admitted to lying.

 

[MrJ]

No "allegedly lying" about it in this case - she has admitted to lying.

ah thanks, there's a lot of details that have been alleged that I forgot which ones were admitted.

 

[Jess D]

I don't necessarily think that you are dealing with the same scenario. It all comes down to decisions made on likelihood. The likelihood of store bought mushrooms being tainted with death caps? - low. The likelihood of foraged mushrooms (in a region that has death cap mushrooms, which can be hard to distinguish from edible mushrooms) being death caps? - high, or at least higher. As medical staff, you make decisions on treatment based on symptoms, blood work etc before you know for sure what is wrong with the patient. You get it right some of the time, others you change direction because of what presents itself, and sometimes you get it wrong too. The likelihood of getting it right improves with more information.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - chances are it's a duck.

When my brother and I were kids, my father often took us foraging for mushrooms in the paddocks around Moorooduc. I have happy memories of these times and we all loved foraging. Even as kids, my brother and I knew that the edible mushrooms were brown, not white underneath and we could distinguish what the poisonous mushrooms looked like. Erin & Simon had lots of experience in foraging & she had lots of books on the subject. Her friend said that she was 'very good' at it...

 

[MsMarple]

I don't necessarily think that you are dealing with the same scenario. It all comes down to decisions made on likelihood. The likelihood of store bought mushrooms being tainted with death caps? - low. The likelihood of foraged mushrooms (in a region that has death cap mushrooms, which can be hard to distinguish from edible mushrooms) being death caps? - high, or at least higher. As medical staff, you make decisions on treatment based on symptoms, blood work etc before you know for sure what is wrong with the patient. You get it right some of the time, others you change direction because of what presents itself, and sometimes you get it wrong too. The likelihood of getting it right improves with more information.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - chances are it's a duck.

Excellent point and IMO it’s exactly how things unfolded. As noted upthread at least one toxicologist told a doctor it was impossible for store bought mushrooms to be death caps.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I also wanted to add: why would anyone be on their phone while child protection is asking you if you allegedly foraged mushrooms used in the dish?

"Cripps says she asked Patterson if she picked the mushrooms used in the dish.

Prosecutor Sarah Lenthall asks Cripps if Patterson answered the question.

Cripps says she did not. She says Patterson was on her phone when she asked the question."

Erin Patterson trial day 12 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

I believe she was looking up something along the lines of bank statements, credit card records etc to find the transaction for the "Asian store mushrooms", to find out when/where they were purchased.

When she found no record, she claimed she must have paid cash.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

ah thanks, there's a lot of details that have been alleged that I forgot which ones were admitted.

Better safe than sorry. Allegedly.