Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #11 *Arrest*

[MrJ]

Well, here it is. Happy EP cross-examination day to all who celebrate.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

The female presenter is genuinely sympathetic to Erin, in my opinion. After the first week she was part of a end-of-week summary and she made a point of how alleged female perpetrators can be unfairly judged for perceived deficiencies or differences in their responses and gave Lindy Chamberlain as an example.

This is definitely true. The previous two presenters just focused on the facts, whereas the female presenter clearly has a notion that this is another example of women being treated a certain way. She does a lot of 'it makes sense' comments etc.

 

[Old Soul]

Erin has admitted that she lies to authorities when anxious, scared, panicked, thus it must be considered that the stressful experience of providing testimony and being cross examined is also likely to result in lies.

 

[Cedars]

This is definitely true. The previous two presenters just focused on the facts, whereas the female presenter clearly has a notion that this is another example of women being treated a certain way. She does a lot of 'it makes sense' comments etc.

Like, if it were a man, no one would question it? 'Sure, we all know blokes often mistakenly poison people, but this female just gives off a weird vibe.'

ETA...I tend to think TV shows do it on purpose to draw in viewers and make a foregone conclusion more of a cliff-hanger.

 

[katydid23]

This is where the ‘accidental’ comes in, IMO. It’s majorly important to sow that seed as that’s their only defence

True. The problem for the defence though, IMO, is that if it was truly accidental, then she and her kids, and probably her dog too, would have also been poisoned.

She ate about the same amount of the 'accidentally poisoned' meal as Gail did. Even if EP had stuffed herself with cake and brought it back up later----that still left several hours for the Death Caps to enter her blood stream and her digestive track. And begin doing major damage.

I don't think there was any convincing evidence shown that EP suffered any health setbacks after she ate her meal. The only 'evidence' of her being unwell is her own description.

If she truly fed her children leftover meat that had been cooking in the oven with Death Cap paste on top of it, scraping off the mushrooms would not have prevented them from severe illness.

So 'accidental' does not ring true for me. If she thought that meal was 'safe', her Labrador would have been given those leftover meat scraps that night, IMO.

It is just too hard for me to believe that Death Caps were accidentally added to that elegant meal, and somehow the ONLY people who were deathly ill were her invited guests.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Originally, I found it hard to believe that EP decided to take the stand. Now I'm more convinced than ever that it was a bad idea.

Prior to it, I felt the prosecution hadn't quite done enough to prove her guilt. Now, not only has come up with a number of inconsistencies and explanations that seem hard to swallow, but she has admitted repeatedly to lying for a number of different reasons. She's set herself up to have a lot of her explanations torn apart by the prosecution as possible lies as well.

There are also elements that now make less sense than they did before. On the one hand she is very capable and scientific and actually knew the risk of DC etc, but on the other she wasn't careful about which exact ones she picked and couldn't remember that she had added these until days after the meal?

Also, these DC that she picked just happen to be ones she didn't test at the time, didn't put in the kids muffins and then didn't test when she put them in the finished beef wellingtons?

Prior to her taking the stand, the jurors could have simply contended that she accidentally picked DC mushrooms and used them unknowingly. Now it is bizarrely less believable.

 

[Little Jack]

Did I read correctly that there was some sort of health scare regarding the daughter being thought to have an ovarian mass?

 

[MaxDecimus13]

There is a possibility that this is one of those witchhunt type things, but it's far from definite.

 

[Megnut]

True. The problem for the defence though, IMO, is that if it was truly accidental, then she and her kids, and probably her dog too, would have also been poisoned.

She ate about the same amount of the 'accidentally poisoned' meal as Gail did. Even if EP had stuffed herself with cake and Brough it back up later----that still left several hours for the Death Caps to enter her blood stream and her digestive track.

I don't think there was any convincing evidence shown that EP suffered any health setbacks after she ate her meal.

If she truly fed her children leftover meat that had been cooking in the oven with Death Cap paste on top of it, scraping off the mushrooms would not have prevented them from severe illness.

So 'accidental' does not ring true for me. If she thought that meal was 'safe', her Labrador would have been given those leftover meat scraps that night, IMO.

It is just too hard for me to believe that Death Caps were accidentally added to that elegant meal, and somehow the ONLY people who were deathly ill were her invited guests.

When, in fact, it wasn't an elegant meal at all, as cooks on this thread have pointed out! Skipped half the ingredients, skipped half the steps, shortcut the grand presentation in favor of individual bread bowls.

But Erin is like that.

Shed probably serve mac and cheese and call it an Italian pasta dish with a light cheese blend. And with hell knows what for mystery sprinkles. Could be brownies. Could be morels. Probably not bacon.

When she laid the guilt on Simon for not coming to her exciting announcement luncheon, she may have meant every part of 'you don't know how much trouble I've gone to', just not in good way.

She is not going to be the face of Tupperware.

JMO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Motivation has been an issue for me in this trial (without it being a requirement of course).

After hearing her speak, I do think there is a possibility that she might have wanted to make them ill and then been able to look after them etc. She's admitted to lying for attention and being a bit of a hypochondriac, it's not a huge step to a form of munchausens.

I'm not sure we'll ever know of course, I'm just speaking out loud.

 

[SouthAussie]

Motivation has been an issue for me in this trial (without it being a requirement of course).

After hearing her speak, I do think there is a possibility that she might have wanted to make them ill and then been able to look after them etc. She's admitted to lying for attention and being a bit of a hypochondriac, it's not a huge step to a form of munchausens.

I'm not sure we'll ever know of course, I'm just speaking out loud.

I don't think people get a "bit sick" from Death Caps.

It is a huge thing if a person is lucky enough to survive Death Cap poisoning.

imo


He was a fit 39-year-old who enjoyed marathon running and cycling.

"The liver specialist there looked at the mushrooms and basically said, 'Oh yeah, that's a death cap mushroom'. And they basically got me in an air ambulance, airlifted me to Royal Prince Alfred in Sydney. And I went into the acute liver ward."

During the next week in hospital, Simon Claringbold's body was slowly succumbing to the poison.

"I was preparing for the end, I really thought it was the end. The lights were starting to go out."

Finally, after 11 days in hospital, he turned a corner and was able to be discharged.

Mr Claringbold said his doctor told him he was lucky.

'I thought it was the end': Death cap mushroom survivor recounts brush with death

With the country gripped by the mystery surrounding the death of three elderly Victorians from suspected death cap mushroom poisoning, Simon Claringbold knows better than most how dangerous the fungus can be.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Cedars]

Motivation has been an issue for me in this trial (without it being a requirement of course).

After hearing her speak, I do think there is a possibility that she might have wanted to make them ill and then been able to look after them etc. She's admitted to lying for attention and being a bit of a hypochondriac, it's not a huge step to a form of munchausens.

I'm not sure we'll ever know of course, I'm just speaking out loud.

Yes, that is a good suggestion that others share.

I wonder though, since it doesn't sound as though she rushed to anyone's bedside, wanting to nurse them. Or even showed much curiosity or concern about their condition. Being instead preoccupied with her son's flying lessons, etc.

 

[LinasK]

Originally, I found it hard to believe that EP decided to take the stand. Now I'm more convinced than ever that it was a bad idea.

Prior to it, I felt the prosecution hadn't quite done enough to prove her guilt. Now, not only has come up with a number of inconsistencies and explanations that seem hard to swallow, but she has admitted repeatedly to lying for a number of different reasons. She's set herself up to have a lot of her explanations torn apart by the prosecution as possible lies as well.

There are also elements that now make less sense than they did before. On the one hand she is very capable and scientific and actually knew the risk of DC etc, but on the other she wasn't careful about which exact ones she picked and couldn't remember that she had added these until days after the meal?

Also, these DC that she picked just happen to be ones she didn't test at the time, didn't put in the kids muffins and then didn't test when she put them in the finished beef wellingtons?

Prior to her taking the stand, the jurors could have simply contended that she accidentally picked DC mushrooms and used them unknowingly. Now it is bizarrely less believable.

Exactly considering she's an "experienced forager" and supposedly can identify Death Caps. And supposedly they also grow in her yard. She had plenty of mushroom photos for identification.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Estimates vary but Wikipedia has death rates at 10-30%. Maybe she thought that a small amount would only make them seriously ill.

Of course it's only pure speculation to a possible motive. The husband's mystery illness is incredibly suspicious, but could be indicative of a previous attempt at something similar.

I do think the lack of an even probable motive is one of the best arguments for the defence. Aside from being a psycho serial killer, it doesn't make sense that she would want to murder these 4 people.

 

[Megnut]

I think she wanted attention. Simon was supposed to choose her. Call her an ambulance, be by her side, she was supposed to be the miracle survivor, not Ian.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Yes. Or also just for the sense of control it might give her - which is often a motive for murder. Watching someone eat while keeping your little secret about what you put in there...

Can you imagine this scene----Ian offers to pray over Erin, in order to help her heal from Ovarian cancer, and the 4 guests began to pray for her, meanwhile she knows that they were deathly ill already. Ghastly.

 

[MsMarple]

Regarding the lunch plates, I’m prone to believe that white plates could be confused with grey ones, especially if they’re light grey. Three people believed there were four of same colored plates, except for Erin…

What happened to the lunch plates?

According to Erin:

She says she used "just the dinner plates I had" to serve.

"I think there's a couple of black, a couple of white, one that's red on top and black underneath, and then I've got one that [my daughter] made at kindergarten," she says.

She says she didn't own any other dinner plates and didn't own any grey plates.

This conflicts with testimony from lunch guest Ian Wilkinson, who claimed lunch was served on four grey plates and one tan-orange plate.

Erin Patterson says estranged husband asked her about poisoning his parents — as it happened

Erin Patterson is giving evidence for a third day in her triple-murder trial in Morwell. She's accused of murdering three relatives by serving them a meal that contained poisonous mushrooms. Look back at how Wednesday's hearing unfolded in our live blog.

www.abc.net.au

According to her son:

After they said their goodbyes, the boy said he helped Patterson clean up from lunch.

“I remember taking some plates up to the sink and putting them in the dishwasher,” he said.

“I collected all the plates put them in a pile next to the sink... I collected all the glasses put them near the sink.”

He said he did not recall any remnants of food on the plates, which he believed were “plain white” dinner plates about 15cm in diameter.

Asked if he thought they were all the same, the boy agreed.

'Very negative': Son of alleged mushroom poisoner shares claims about parents in court

He found her building Lego hours after serving the deadly meal.

www.nzherald.co.nz

According to Ian:

The church pastor said the guests ate off grey plates, but Ms Patterson's plate was an orange, tan colour.

Mr Wilkinson said each plate had a serving of mashed potatoes, green beans and an individually-cased beef Wellington, which resembled a pasty.

Surviving lunch guest describes how sickness set in after deadly mushroom meal

Pastor Ian Wilkinson, the sole surviving guest of a lunch containing death cap mushrooms, has given evidence in Erin Patterson's triple-murder trial.

www.abc.net.au

According to Heather:

Heather Wilkinson, who died after a July 2023 lunch at Patterson's Leongatha home, asked questions about the meal as she started to become ill in the subsequent hours, prosecutor Nanette Rogers SC told a jury of 15.

"I noticed that Erin put her food on a different plate to us, her plate had colours on it, I wondered why that was," Wilkinson allegedly said before her death.

Alleged mushroom poisoning victim queried different plate before death, jury told

www.9news.com.au

 

[SouthAussie]

I do think the lack of an even probable motive is one of the best arguments for the defence. Aside from being a psycho serial killer, it doesn't make sense that she would want to murder these 4 people.

Sometimes the prosecution does not provide a motive because there are too many motives to decide which one applies.

In the Greg Lynn trial they couldn't say if Lynn got it into an argument with Russell about Lynn shooting too close to their camp, or about Russell annoying Lynn with his drone flying, or if it was a brutal attack for some other reason.
It was evident that all of the covering up afterwards was a sign of guilt. But the prosecution did not try to provide a motive.

imo

 

[LinasK]

Estimates vary but Wikipedia has death rates at 10-30%. Maybe she thought that a small amount would only make them seriously ill.

Of course it's only pure speculation to a possible motive. The husband's mystery illness is incredibly suspicious, but could be indicative of a previous attempt at something similar.

I do think the lack of an even probable motive is one of the best arguments for the defence. Aside from being a psycho serial killer, it doesn't make sense that she would want to murder these 4 people.

Rage to get back at her ex-husband. It's his family she wiped out and now he has to live with the grief. That's her motive as I see it. Plus, they weren't siding with her in her battle(s) with him.

 

[SouthAussie]

Rage to get back at her ex-husband. It's his family she wiped out and now he has to live with the grief. That's her motive as I see it. Plus, they weren't siding with her in her battle(s) with him.

Can I just add ... in stupid battles with him. Go to court, get a mediator, work your problems out like adults.

imo