Hopefully Simon is doing more with the kids these days.
Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*
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Maybe she deliberately used a Woolworths paper bag to show she bought the mushrooms from there, if anyone saw them, and to seep through the bag
To me, it sounds like she wanted them quickly out of the way, worrying about the kids touching the inside bin and her dog sniffing around with the meat, etc.
She put them outside, waiting for the garbage collection
I wonder when that was happening before the police got to them?
They had to try work it out for themselves, sadly.
If Erin had told them that her victims had consumed foraged mushrooms than it would have immediately have been a red flag IMO. Didn't really matter if it was accidental or deliberate to the medical staff. They need to treat what is in front of them. And as we have learned, extremly time critical treatment is very important.
Everything they were seeing was pointing towards a deadly toxin.
They would have spoken to a toxicologist much earlier too & done more frequent blood work ( ie keeping a very close eye on the lactate levels ) & probably been transferred earlier to a major referral hospital & be seen in person by the toxicologist. They could have started NAC while awaiting tranfer ( no harm in giving it really ) IMO
IMO if they had been told at the very first presentation that they had consumed foraged mushrooms than the medical staff could have put the dots together much earlier & commenced life saving treatment earlier, transferred earlier.
All IMO
They treat the symptoms & look for a cause. If they had known the possible cause earlier than they could target the treatment earlier & involve specialist early ( ie toxicologist )
Erin was quite capable of answering the question, she just choose to ignore it ( like ignoring the Dr's repeated calls, the calls from the health departmant ) She wasn't talking on her phone.
Trying to be super helpful
Exactly.
Yep & the Public Health worker was very concerned about the health of the general public, how dare she want answers to very reasonable questions
I think so too, powdered Deathcaps was always the plan, and that plan was formed months before the eventual lunch.
We already know that prior to the lunch she was experimenting with "putting powdered mushrooms in everything"
She knew it was easy enough to disguise powdered mushrooms in another dish, but in the case of the Death caps, there was a problem:
Mycologist Dr. Tom May testified that dried death cap mushrooms emit an unpleasant odor. He stated that while fresh death caps have a "quite sweet" smell, drying them results in an unpleasant scent"
also:
Ms Patterson described the mushrooms from the Asian grocers as being in packaging that couldn't be re-sealed and that it had a white label, Ms Cripps said. "She said she was going to use them in a carbonara but when she opened them they had a very strong smell.
I think this was a half truth. She'd considered using the Deathcaps in a carbonara but was concerned about concealing the strong smell. That's why she chose individual beef wellingtons. Mixed in with other mushrooms and garlic in the duxelles, layered over a thick cut of beef and sealed in pastry, the smell would be much harder to detect.
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This is interesting about Death Cap Mushrooms
www.abc.net.au
Just one death cap mushroom is enough to kill a healthy adult when ingested. (ABC News: Penny McLintock)
The deaths of three Victorians after a Saturday lunch in the small town of Leongatha sent shock waves through the community, but also shone the spotlight on one of the most poisonous organisms on earth.
Police say the three people who died, and the person in a critical condition in hospital, showed symptoms consistent with having consumed death cap mushrooms, although the official cause of death is yet to be determined.
The death cap mushroom — or Amanita phalloides — is responsible for nine out of every 10 mushroom poisoning deaths, and kills somewhere between 10 and 30 per cent of those who ingest it.
While just one mushroom can kill an adult, death caps are said to taste pleasant and look similar to edible mushrooms used in cooking.
The innocuous look, feel and taste of a death cap mushroom means it can be hard for someone who has eaten one to even know they've been poisoned.
After the initial period of no symptoms, someone who has consumed the mushroom will experience nausea, vomiting, cramps and diarrhoea — symptoms which could be mistaken for another illness such as gastroenteritis.
The next stage of illness is marked by an improvement of physical symptoms, as the ill person begins to feel better for the next day or two.
However, serious damage is still occurring to the internal organs.
Death cap (left) and yellow-staining mushrooms are poisonous fungi found in Australia (AAP: Joel Carrett, file photo)
Independent Forensic Consulting director Michael Robertson has been working as a forensic toxicologist for decades, and says the internal damage caused by toxins such as mushrooms is a silent killer.
"It's a little bit like paracetamol in that sense. You can take an overdose of paracetamol and you might get a little bit sick for a day, and then you recover," Dr Robertson says.
At this point, a person may begin to experience jaundice, seizures and could fall into a coma as the liver and kidneys begin to shut down.
Death can ensue seven to 10 days after mushroom ingestion.
The mushrooms contain a toxin known as α-amanitin, found in the highest concentrations in the ring, gills and cap.
Washing, cooking or preparing the mushroom does not remove the toxin. A fatal case was reported occurring even after mushrooms had been dried and then frozen for more than seven months.
Ingesting death cap mushrooms can cause a person's liver and kidneys to shut down. (ABC News: Penny McLintock)
Researchers recognise that this toxin inhibits a crucial protein in the liver known as RNA polymerase II, which helps transcribe our DNA. Without this essential protein, the liver can't repair the damage it sustains, and necrosis — or cell death — begins.
Treatments mainly target the symptoms with decontamination and rehydration of the body. Drugs and ultimately transplants of the liver and/or kidneys are necessary if the damage has progressed past a certain point.
There is no known antidote for death cap mushroom poisoning currently, although researchers have had recent success in using a green dye to combat the toxin.
In cases of suspected poisonings, samples taken from victims are analysed by forensic toxicologists to assess whether toxins are present.
Photo shows A house on a rural block.
Police continue to investigate three suspected mushroom poisoning deaths after a family lunch last month in Leongatha in Victoria's east. Here's what we know so far.
While samples are taken in hospital and during autopsies in the days following a suspected poisoning death, identifying toxins is not always straightforward.
Dr Robertson says the actual testing for toxins could take a number of weeks depending on how equipped the laboratory is.
"They may have to purchase some additional standards or compounds that are known toxins so that then the laboratory can compare what they find in the urine, to what is known to be the toxin … and that process might take a couple of weeks," he says.
He says the relative rarity of mushroom toxins means a standard might have to be procured from interstate or overseas, potentially delaying the process.
"If it were cocaine and this was a high profile case, you could get the results in 24 hours, or 48 hours," he says.
"When you get these unusual cases, it can take a little bit longer to do."
Dr Robertson says once a "standard" of the mushroom toxin has been obtained, toxicologists will be able to tell with "scientific certainty" whether someone had those toxins in their body at the time of their death.
Toxicologists from the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine declined to speak to the ABC given their proximity to the suspected poisonings in Leongatha.
What happens when you eat a death cap mushroom?
The deaths of three Victorians after a Saturday lunch in the small town of Leongatha sent shock waves through the community, but also shone the spotlight on one of the most poisonous organisms on earth.
www.abc.net.au
Police believe poisonous death cap mushrooms are behind the Leongatha deaths. What happens when you eat one?
Thu 10 Aug 2023Thursday 10 August 2023Just one death cap mushroom is enough to kill a healthy adult when ingested. (ABC News: Penny McLintock)
The deaths of three Victorians after a Saturday lunch in the small town of Leongatha sent shock waves through the community, but also shone the spotlight on one of the most poisonous organisms on earth.
Police say the three people who died, and the person in a critical condition in hospital, showed symptoms consistent with having consumed death cap mushrooms, although the official cause of death is yet to be determined.
The death cap mushroom — or Amanita phalloides — is responsible for nine out of every 10 mushroom poisoning deaths, and kills somewhere between 10 and 30 per cent of those who ingest it.
While just one mushroom can kill an adult, death caps are said to taste pleasant and look similar to edible mushrooms used in cooking.
The innocuous look, feel and taste of a death cap mushroom means it can be hard for someone who has eaten one to even know they've been poisoned.
The timeline of death cap mushroom poisoning
Illness from death cap poisoning generally takes place in stages, with symptoms arising anywhere from six to 24 hours after eating the mushroom.After the initial period of no symptoms, someone who has consumed the mushroom will experience nausea, vomiting, cramps and diarrhoea — symptoms which could be mistaken for another illness such as gastroenteritis.
The next stage of illness is marked by an improvement of physical symptoms, as the ill person begins to feel better for the next day or two.
However, serious damage is still occurring to the internal organs.
Death cap (left) and yellow-staining mushrooms are poisonous fungi found in Australia (AAP: Joel Carrett, file photo)
Independent Forensic Consulting director Michael Robertson has been working as a forensic toxicologist for decades, and says the internal damage caused by toxins such as mushrooms is a silent killer.
"It's a little bit like paracetamol in that sense. You can take an overdose of paracetamol and you might get a little bit sick for a day, and then you recover," Dr Robertson says.
Eventually, the damage done to the liver and kidneys become apparent, leading to potentially irreversible damage and failure.
At this point, a person may begin to experience jaundice, seizures and could fall into a coma as the liver and kidneys begin to shut down.
Death can ensue seven to 10 days after mushroom ingestion.
What do death cap mushrooms do to our bodies?
Despite their deadliness, the exact mechanisms of how the mushrooms poison humans are still not well understood.The mushrooms contain a toxin known as α-amanitin, found in the highest concentrations in the ring, gills and cap.
Washing, cooking or preparing the mushroom does not remove the toxin. A fatal case was reported occurring even after mushrooms had been dried and then frozen for more than seven months.
Ingesting death cap mushrooms can cause a person's liver and kidneys to shut down. (ABC News: Penny McLintock)
Researchers recognise that this toxin inhibits a crucial protein in the liver known as RNA polymerase II, which helps transcribe our DNA. Without this essential protein, the liver can't repair the damage it sustains, and necrosis — or cell death — begins.
Treatments mainly target the symptoms with decontamination and rehydration of the body. Drugs and ultimately transplants of the liver and/or kidneys are necessary if the damage has progressed past a certain point.
There is no known antidote for death cap mushroom poisoning currently, although researchers have had recent success in using a green dye to combat the toxin.
How are poisonings identified?
Police have not been able to definitively conclude that death cap mushrooms were involved in the recent deaths in Victoria's east.In cases of suspected poisonings, samples taken from victims are analysed by forensic toxicologists to assess whether toxins are present.
A meal was shared in this home, then three people died. What do we know so far?
Photo shows A house on a rural block.
Police continue to investigate three suspected mushroom poisoning deaths after a family lunch last month in Leongatha in Victoria's east. Here's what we know so far.
While samples are taken in hospital and during autopsies in the days following a suspected poisoning death, identifying toxins is not always straightforward.
Dr Robertson says the actual testing for toxins could take a number of weeks depending on how equipped the laboratory is.
"They may have to purchase some additional standards or compounds that are known toxins so that then the laboratory can compare what they find in the urine, to what is known to be the toxin … and that process might take a couple of weeks," he says.
He says the relative rarity of mushroom toxins means a standard might have to be procured from interstate or overseas, potentially delaying the process.
"If it were cocaine and this was a high profile case, you could get the results in 24 hours, or 48 hours," he says.
"When you get these unusual cases, it can take a little bit longer to do."
Dr Robertson says once a "standard" of the mushroom toxin has been obtained, toxicologists will be able to tell with "scientific certainty" whether someone had those toxins in their body at the time of their death.
Toxicologists from the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine declined to speak to the ABC given their proximity to the suspected poisonings in Leongatha.
They had to try work it out for themselves, sadly.
If Erin had told them that her victims had consumed foraged mushrooms than it would have immediately have been a red flag IMO. Didn't really matter if it was accidental or deliberate to the medical staff. They need to treat what is in front of them. And as we have learned, extremly time critical treatment is very important.
Everything they were seeing was pointing towards a deadly toxin.
They would have spoken to a toxicologist much earlier too & done more frequent blood work ( ie keeping a very close eye on the lactate levels ) & probably been transferred earlier to a major referral hospital & be seen in person by the toxicologist. They could have started NAC while awaiting tranfer ( no harm in giving it really ) IMO
IMO if they had been told at the very first presentation that they had consumed foraged mushrooms than the medical staff could have put the dots together much earlier & commenced life saving treatment earlier, transferred earlier.
All IMO
They treat the symptoms & look for a cause. If they had known the possible cause earlier than they could target the treatment earlier & involve specialist early ( ie toxicologist )
Erin was quite capable of answering the question, she just choose to ignore it ( like ignoring the Dr's repeated calls, the calls from the health departmant ) She wasn't talking on her phone.
Trying to be super helpful
Exactly.
Yep & the Public Health worker was very concerned about the health of the general public, how dare she want answers to very reasonable questions
I agree, in fact if we consider that it's been reported that Erin was an experienced forager and that the family foraged together:
An unnamed family friend reported that Erin Patterson was known to be good at foraging wild mushrooms, and that the Patterson family would “pick mushrooms together each year when they were in season”
If it wasn't intentional, I imagine she would have described to her guests how she'd put so much effort into foraging for local mushrooms for the dish. There'd be no reason to hide it, her family would be excited about eating the locally hand picked delights.
Likewise, when the guests presented to hospital the morning after the lunch, they'd have reported having eaten locally foraged mushrooms in the dish and as Deathcaps are known to grow locally (and cannot be cultivated), then amatoxin poisoning would be an immediate possibility - and it wouldn't require waiting to hear back from Erin about where the mushrooms came from.
Narcissistic parents engage in ongoing comparison, triangulation, and smear campaigns to alienate their children's relationships with the other parent, siblings, extended family, and social circle. With adult children, narcissistic parents may attempt to alienate their kids from their own children and spouse. -- Psychology Today
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Porky1
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100% agree.
Re Woolies bag, that’s what I meant, it backed up her story re buying at Woolworths.
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