Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[wnk]

I can't understand the cavalier attitude some have here and elsewhere are taking for the sub being controlled by a damned game controller. I would be interested to see the risk assessment document(s) about such a device.

The aviation industry and 'proper' subs have to adhere to strict protocols. Any backup for the controller available? Has the device been modified in any way? Has the device been stress tested? What various power options are available in case of failure? Has it been tested in case of any water ingress during the preparations for the descent, like climbing in to the sub and maybe dripping water on a wire? How many cycles has the device been through, not submersion cycles but how long has the device been used for? Are there documents available for such a device referring to how many movements it should reasonably be expected to respond to over its life, how many movements has the device been subjected to?

The whole scheme horrifies me. What the hell did the bloke who seemingly shunned industry advice and warnings expect to happen?

The situation angers me so much. This didn't have to happen.

I think the reason so many people are being "cavalier" about the game controller is twofold:
1) It's not uncommon for modified game controllers to be used to control professional equipment; even the military uses them. (LINK) and
2) We know now that this tragedy was not due to controller failure. The implosion was almost certainly caused by a failure of the carbon fiber hull -- and the lack of proper testing to ensure that no weak spots or delamination occurred in it over time (LINK).

 

[LondonBloke]

I understand that the implosion caused the tragedy. I'm wondering what other 'modifications' were made to any other 'systems' this craft had to make it "seaworthy".

 

[ch_13]

I think the reason so many people are being "cavalier" about the game controller is twofold:
1) It's not uncommon for modified game controllers to be used to control professional equipment; even the military uses them. (LINK) and
2) We know now that this tragedy was not due to controller failure. The implosion was almost certainly caused by a failure of the carbon fiber hull -- and the lack of proper testing to ensure that no weak spots or delamination occurred in it over time (LINK).

Right, a failure of the game controller may cause them to abort the mission and return to the surface, but it wouldn't get people killed.

The real problem was that OceanGate built the pressure hull built out of untested materials, they brushed off the need for certification and they sidestepped regulations for passenger vehicles. Those are the reasons why everyone onboard needlessly perished.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Briefly: I know a lot (way too much) about consumer electronics, video game hardware and peripherals like controllers, etc.

I know nothing about the engineering involved in a craft that has to withstand ocean pressures a couple of miles down. I know a lot of people are horrified/amused/etc about the off-the-shelf consumer electronics used onboard, and they definitely could have experienced glitches, but I don’t think they had anything to do with the failure point(s). I’m very interested in the discussions of titanium vs carbon fiber, and some of Cameron’s comments on materials used in these types of undersea crafts. I suppose it’s possible that the use of consumer electronics (the pics I’ve seen look like they were using a Logitech game controller that was probably about fifty bucks new) speaks to the overall cost-cutting they did, and that it can be extrapolated out to more critical design choices that resulted in failure … I just don’t think the game controller is super relevant, in and of itself.

JMO, not an engineer.

 

[JDG]

EXCLUSIVE: Tycoon gave up seats on Titanic sub for father and son

Jay Bloom (pictured with his son Sean) has shared texts between him and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush showing he was offered a 'last minute price' of $150,000 - $100,000 below the usual price.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[PrairieWind]

Right, a failure of the game controller may cause them to abort the mission and return to the surface, but it wouldn't get people killed.

The real problem was that OceanGate built the pressure hull built out of untested materials, they brushed off the need for certification and they sidestepped regulations for passenger vehicles. Those are the reasons why everyone onboard needlessly perished.

Well put. The use of the game controller, to m, seems actually a good idea. It is an existing device that is well engineered, has years of service, is very durable and does everything you need it to do. I wondered why have remote controls at all, and not hard wired, but I am wondering if it was because Rush wanted to be able to maintain control while others were in the position to look out the window (which is where hard wired controls would normally be). So the controller and zip tie thing to me are irrelevant. As you noted, the design and construction of the hull was the far bigger issue. Using carbon composite and a non-spherical hull was new. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with that, but it was never properly tested. He avoided certification I am sure specifically because he knew it would NOT get certified. He "certified" it by sending it down and it survived. And it did in fact work for multiple trips. But its fail characteristics were totally unknown and overlooked. It worked until it didn't.

 

[Sarahlou]

EXCLUSIVE: Tycoon gave up seats on Titanic sub for father and son

Jay Bloom (pictured with his son Sean) has shared texts between him and OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush showing he was offered a 'last minute price' of $150,000 - $100,000 below the usual price.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If I was him I'd be very grateful to his son's friend who told his son about the risks! What a lucky escape.

 

[iamshadow21]

If I was him I'd be very grateful to his son's friend who told his son about the risks! What a lucky escape.

I feel deeply sorry for this man... Treat Williams was an amazing talent, and to lose him as a friend and have this happen in a week... I'd feel both lucky I didn't go and incredibly guilty that they went in my place. I'd be pausing for a while and reevaluating my life, too.

MOO

 

[ilovewings]

Right, a failure of the game controller may cause them to abort the mission and return to the surface, but it wouldn't get people killed.

The real problem was that OceanGate built the pressure hull built out of untested materials, they brushed off the need for certification and they sidestepped regulations for passenger vehicles. Those are the reasons why everyone onboard needlessly perished.

The fact this was preventable makes it so much worse- those people who perished with the CEO who built this contraption (i.e. submersible), trusted him- and they were so betrayed. He was so arrogant that he believed he could sidestep safety issues ( I believe he said something like safety is a waste (paraphrasing) and everything would just be fine.

 

[JennieM]

Waivers may not shield OceanGate from lawsuits - legal experts​

Liability waivers signed by the five men on board the Titan may not shield OceanGate from potential lawsuits by their families, US legal experts tell Reuters news agency.

"If there were aspects of the design or construction of this vessel that were kept from the passengers or it was knowingly operated despite information that it was not suitable for this dive, that would absolutely go against the validity of the waiver," personal injury lawyer and maritime law expert Matthew Shaffer says.

Joseph Low, a personal injury lawyer from California, says: "There are so many different examples of what families might still have claims for despite the waivers, but until we know the cause we can't determine whether the waivers apply."

David Pogue, a reporter from CBS News, the BBC's partner in the US, made the trip with OceanGate last year and reported that the waiver he signed mentioned the possibility of death three times on the first page.

OceanGate could argue it was not grossly negligent and that the waivers apply because they fully described the inherent dangers of the dive, Reuters reports.

The degree of any potential negligence and how that might impact the applicability of the waivers will depend on the causes of the disaster, which are still under investigation.

Neither the BBC nor Reuters has seen the legal waivers the passengers were asked to agree.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[lonetraveler]

I don't think that's how it went down.

I think they went back and looked at their sound files once the event had occurred.

ICBW. Open to correction.

IMO.

No one was paying attention to that tiny sector of the Atlantic at the exact point in time when the Titan stopped responding.

IMO. The Navy found the facts after it went missing (although it could have been reported as an anomaly in the Titanic sector).

I read that yesterday that the Navy went back and checked the timing of the sound and it happened at the time communication was lost from Titan.

 

[heavenly2012]

Cbsnews.com/oceangate-safety-warnings-lawsuits/

Interesting article about an employee of Ocean gate named David Lochridge who was fired and counter sued due to safety issues with the Titan.

 

[JennieM]

Jersey sub search equipment stood down​

Copyright: BBC
The equipment has now been removed from Jersey Airport

Specialist equipment bound for the North Atlantic sub search is being returned to the Guernsey business that owns it.

A Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) owned by Magellan was seen on Thursday, being prepped to load onto a US plane at Jersey Airport but plans were changed after it was confirmed all five passengers of the Titanic submersible had died.

In a statement, the firm said it was " deeply saddened by the news confirmed by the Unified Command yesterday" and extended its deepest condolences to the families and loved ones affected.

Marcus Sutton, managing director of Sutton Transport Services, said it had been tasked with removing the gear from the airport.
Read more here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[JennieM]

Titan mothership heads back to St John's from debris site​

As we've been reporting, several vessels remain at the site of the debris field today in the aftermath of the likely implosion.

But the Polar Prince, the mothership of the Titan sub that launched it on Sunday, is heading back to St John's, Newfoundland, Canada.
It is expected to arrive there tomorrow morning.

Vessels at the wreck site are constantly moving around the area, but this map shows the position some of the ships involved with the search held this morning.

Horizon Arctic is a commercial vessel which operated the Palegic Odysseus 6K ROV - the craft which first found the debris field yesterday. The ship is operated by the same company which owns Polar Prince.

The map also highlights two other ships - French-operated L'Atalante, which has deployed the Victor 6000 ROV, and scientific research vessel John Cabot, which is operated by the Canadian Coast Guard.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[JennieM]

Victim's relative calls for investigation into Titan tragedy​

The cousin and god daughter of Hamish Harding has called for a full investigation into the deaths of the five Titan passengers.

In an interview with BBC special correspondent Lucy Manning, Lucy Cosnett asked what safety checks had been in place before the trajedy.

"It should be fully investigated, to see what went wrong, why it happened, why they didn’t survive," Cosnett said.

"He [Harding] was going to have his birthday tomorrow. He’d be 59 years old. I would have sent him a message or tried to call him to wish him happy birthday.”

Reflecting on the last few days, Cosnett said: "When I read they had heard banging noises I was feeling hopeful that maybe it was coming from the submersible.

"But then yesterday was the worst when I heard that he didn’t make it, that they all died," she said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Well put. The use of the game controller, to m, seems actually a good idea. It is an existing device that is well engineered, has years of service, is very durable and does everything you need it to do. I wondered why have remote controls at all, and not hard wired, but I am wondering if it was because Rush wanted to be able to maintain control while others were in the position to look out the window (which is where hard wired controls would normally be). So the controller and zip tie thing to me are irrelevant. As you noted, the design and construction of the hull was the far bigger issue. Using carbon composite and a non-spherical hull was new. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with that, but it was never properly tested. He avoided certification I am sure specifically because he knew it would NOT get certified. He "certified" it by sending it down and it survived. And it did in fact work for multiple trips. But its fail characteristics were totally unknown and overlooked. It worked until it didn't.

^ This.

There's nothing "cavalier" about my feelings regarding the game controller. Such a controller would likely receive more wear and tear during one strenuous gaming session than during one hundred dives in the Titan. It's a known commodity, it's durable, and it's easy to replace without having to re-engineer the entire system. If they were so inclined they could take half a dozen back-up controllers down with them and replace it after every dive.

There's nothing wrong with using such a controller. The perception of a lack of quality is just that.

I have many problems with the design of Titan, as I've mentioned already. The use of off-the-shelf PC components isn't one of them. I used to work with servers and still build my own PCs, so maybe it's just that I'm confident about what modern components are capable of.

 

[kccorona]

I read that yesterday that the Navy went back and checked the timing of the sound and it happened at the time communication was lost from Titan.

I really wonder if there was any indication of the blast to the launch vessel, especially since it was so closely correlated with the time contact was lost with the Titan. If they were already near the ocean floor, I can imagine there’d be no surface changes to the water that would indicate something going wrong, but I really have no idea.
Part of me thinks (hopes?) that those on the surface boat must not have had any real clue initially, since there was such a delay in reporting to authorities. Otherwise, if they heard/felt/saw any oddities from above the surface, you’d think they’d have reported a lot sooner.

 

[Snail-Overlord]

Very sad outcome. But to be honest, it’s a miracle that the were even able to find the debris. I feared that they may never recover anything or find any clues at all as to what happened.

At least this way, the families can have some closure and know what did happen. I obviously can’t speak for anyone else, but I know if my loved ones were on there, I would feel better knowing they had died instantly rather than fearing they had died slowly over a period of days, fully aware of what was happening.

Someone mentioned this in the last thread too, but I really do hope they got to see the Titanic before they died.

My heart is especially hurting for Suleman the 19 year old, who was apparently scared of going on the trip according to his aunt.

 

[BUF]

According to this, the Navy went back and analyzed it’s acoustical system “after” the Titan was reported missing…

The first hint of a timeline came Thursday evening when a senior U.S. Navy official said that after the Titan was reported missing Sunday, the Navy went back and analyzed its acoustic data and found an "anomaly" that was consistent with an implosion or explosion in the general vicinity of where the vessel was operating when communications were lost. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive acoustic detection system.

With the fate of Titanic-bound submersible clear, focus turns to cause of the fatal implosion

The search for a missing Titanic-bound submersible has become an investigation and salvage mission that will take an indefinite amount of time, officials said, as tributes from around the world poured in for the five people killed.

abc7.com

 

[Pitsleuth]

This may be a stupid question, but if the pressure at the Titanic’s depth is so great, how are things onboard still intact (teacups, mirrors, etc)? Is it only things that are subject to a pressure differential (i.e. an enclosed space such as the submersible) that are at risk of an implosion?