Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[10ofRods]

Thanks for the link! So the Incident Commander was a Coast Guard officer.

I’ll amend my earlier question: Did the Coast Guard alert the Polar Prince captain about the possible implosion and if so, when?

By the time the Coast Guard was involved, the incident was ~6 hours in the past. I can't imagine that the CG Incident Officer didn't tell the Captain of the Polar Prince (unless, of course, there was suspicion about criminal wrong-doing, which I assume there was not).

So when the banging incidents took place, the people in charge of the investigation knew it was likely unrelated (but couldn't be completely sure, 100% certainty just isn't a thing in SAR until evidence of loss of life is seen). It now makes sense why the CG spokespeople said "it's important that the rescue crews have hope as they do their work."

It's fascinating to learn that the Navy monitors our offshore waters in this manner (but makes perfect sense; the tech is there, of course it's in the hands of the military, who almost certainly invented and placed it out there as part of our national defense system).

I wonder how they tested the integrity of the carbon fiber and the connections to it between dives...

The man who quit the project wanted NDT (physical testing) of the hull. To establish a baseline and then to test again to assess wear. CEO Rush said no. The man quit and was given 10 minutes to get his stuff.

Instead, CEO Rush had this idea (I want to say "crazy idea") that electronic censors within the carbon fiber would give them what they needed. Instead, the departing employee has pointed out that the sensors could only be aware of immediate failure of materials, as in milliseconds before failure. How Rush thought this was a good system points to a profound set of cognitive errors on his part. It reminds me of people who adopt a peculiar belief and then simply will not let go of their own imaginative power to see their belief as the only possible way things can go. This kind of imaginative, ego-fueled thinking is not uncommon in people who become CEO's or leaders. It can be very bad news, especially when people go outside their domains of expertise. There are SO many examples; that's why there's a named fallacy (appeal to authority). Rush was a mechanical energy, but not an expert in materials failure (which, I am told, is the most difficult part of engineering and there are people with doctorates in just one minor aspect of it).

If James Cameron is correct that the ballast had been dropped and Titan was trying to ascend, I can only assume those on board knew something was wrong and had enough time to process the problem and try to remedy it. Very sad.

I wonder what evidence James Cameron is using.

Anyone know?

JMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Hagle Lawsuit | PDF

via Orange County Clerk of Court

www.scribd.com

Hagles' Suit Against Rush | PDF | Damages | Virginia Circuit Court

Hagles' suit against Rush

www.scribd.com

 

[Gemmie]

This makes me feel a LOT better because I was thinking that even 1 second of knowing, or feeling anything, would be too long.

A catastrophic implosion is “incredibly quick,” taking place within just a fraction of a millisecond, said Aileen Maria Marty, a former Naval officer and professor at Florida International University.

“The entire thing would have collapsed before the individuals inside would even realize that there was a problem,” she told CNN. “Ultimately, among the many ways in which we can pass, that’s painless.”

June 23, 2023 - Missing Titanic sub crew killed after 'catastrophic implosion'

Investigators continue to scour the ocean floor for debris as they try to establish the timeline and circumstances of the Titan's fatal final voyage.

www.cnn.com

 

[imstilla.grandma]

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23854184/oceangate-v-david-lochridge.pdf

https://media.wbur.org/wp/2023/06/answer-to-complaint.pdf

 

[Gardenista]

I don't disagree with the families point of view as stated in the below story:​

​

‘Like Disneyland’: Titanic Families Blast ‘Disgusting’ Tours of Wreckage​

‘Like Disneyland’: Titanic Families Blast ‘Disgusting’ Tours of Wreckage

Families with relatives who died in or survived the 1912 Titanic disaster say the wreckage site is a “graveyard” that should be treated with respect—not as a travel destination.

www.thedailybeast.com

If we go by this, there are dozens of tours of memorial sites over the entire world that need to be shut down.

 

[fred&edna]

Hagle Lawsuit | PDF

via Orange County Clerk of Court

www.scribd.com

Hagles' Suit Against Rush | PDF | Damages | Virginia Circuit Court

Hagles' suit against Rush

www.scribd.com

I assume this info is easily accessible, so potential passengers could have searched for it before going on excursions? I wonder if anyone ever onboard as a passenger was aware or sought such info?

This was a very serious experimental adventure, it wasn't an amusement park ride, it wasn't an emergency (time-driven) decision to make. Most fraudsters won't attempt the risks they ask their paying customers to take... but this man did. jmo and I guess I should just leave it at that

 

[Mandalas]

After reading that they use game controllers in the military in tanks/submarines I don't find it as strange that it was used in this sub.

Game controllers are originally derived from defence training equipment, they weren't designed to be game controllers originally, if you see what I mean.

 

[iamshadow21]

I understand. But, it seems to me the greatest risks to life (death) are on page 1 and the fact the vessel was experimental and not approved are clear.

Perhaps, but we have the benefit of hindsight and aren't being schmoozed by a charismatic 'innovator' who's telling us it's safer than crossing the street while urging us to just sign on the dotted line.

MOO

 

[Jade]

She apparently hasn’t been in touch with her brother in years. I’m taking this with a grain of salt. I don’t think it’s likely the CEO or Nargeolet would have let a terrified 19 year old on that vessel. Because they’d be stuck with him for 8-10 hours and that could be bad for everyone.

I agree. I also think it's very unlikely that a father, especially one as close to his son as this none was said to be, would have let his son get on that sub. I'm sure he was nervous, they probably all were, even the ones who had done it before, but I don't believe he was terrified and trying to appease his father, and I think the sister is doing them both a huge disservice with her comments. JMO

There’s no reason not to believe the sister and aunt of the deceased as quoted, imo,

The article says Azmah Dawood is in touch with other family members beyond some, including her brother, who disapproved of her using medical marijuana for her MS.

Azmah Dawood said she heard it from a family member with whom she is in touch.

I don’t find her words anything but anguished.

19-year-old Titan passenger was ‘terrified’ before trip, his aunt says


Suleman seems level headed and composed and I’m sure exceedingly well mannered. I doubt he would have presented with a raging out of control appearance even if he was inwardly terrified.


Lovely pictures of the family here:

Dad and son who passed away in Titanic sub tragedy died 'hand-in-hand'


I have no doubt that Suleman wanted nothing more than to go with his Father on this dream trip despite being terrified as anyone would be.


"Suleman is remembered fondly by Engro colleagues as a tall young man walking around with his beloved Rubik’s cube and a smile on his face," according to the obituary. "He loved science fiction literature and volleyball, but his greatest quality was the humility he espoused which was a true reflection of his parents’ upbringing."

Obituary for 19-year-old Titan passenger and his dad honors their ‘close friendship’



Shahzada Dawood was a business man and philanthropist not an explorer or adventurer like the others. They had a frame of reference for the enormous risks of going down that deep in an experimental craft. Dawood trusted, imo.

The disservice to the Dawoods was by the huckster promoting this trip not by a grieving sister and aunt, imo.


all imo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I assume this info is easily accessible, so potential passengers could have searched for it before going on excursions? I wonder if anyone ever onboard as a passenger was aware or sought such info?

3 words and a wildcard started my google search
pretty sure there are more documents. I’m trying to download others…

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/marine-technology-society-committee-2018-letter-to-ocean-gate/eddb63615a7b3764/full.pdf

eta: We‘re under tornado alert. It’s thunder storming so bad - my power keeps browning out. It’s one hell of a thunderstorm, I noticed we had several shingles gone from just last night. We’ve sure had our share In OK. I’ve gotta go. Be back later.. maybe @gitana1 can help with explanations or find more.

 

[fred&edna]

Perhaps, but we have the benefit of hindsight and aren't being schmoozed by a charismatic 'innovator' who's telling us it's safer than crossing the street while urging us to just sign on the dotted line.

MOO

Can't one use personal due diligence to weigh the risks of the "possible" charismatic schmoozer? The adventure seekers had plenty of time to decide whether to believe Rushton (or not).

 

[10ofRods]

This may be a stupid question, but if the pressure at the Titanic’s depth is so great, how are things onboard still intact (teacups, mirrors, etc)? Is it only things that are subject to a pressure differential (i.e. an enclosed space such as the submersible) that are at risk of an implosion?

This is a topic that requires so much study that it's impossible for anyone other than experts to truly explain. However, the upshot (as I understand it) is that materials pinned between the ocean floor and the vast pressure of the ocean can remain stable for long periods. Certain shapes are more prone to remain stable (hence the shape of sea creatures - most of whom do not live at the depth of the Titanic). Having an arc (roundish shape) seems to help.

Basically, the structures that still exist have become part of the pressure-transfer system that ultimately relays all gravitational stress to the ocean floor and then to the Earth's layers. Molecule by molecule, things are still disintegrating and eventually, there will be no Titanic to visit. None of the objects has an atmosphere creating space for the ocean water to move against it.

The Titan was almost a vacuum, compared to the ocean water at 12-13,000 below. Even a tiny rupture would cause, well, the kind of explosions we see when regular atmospheric air encounters a tube that's a relative vacuum.

This video helped me understand this: (all taking place with just 1 atmosphere difference between outside and inside):

(An experiment with a tube and a vacuum).

All my attempts at interpretation and with only partial understanding.

 

[iamshadow21]

Can't one use personal due diligence to weigh the risks of the "possible" charismatic schmoozer? The adventure seekers had plenty of time to decide whether to believe Rushton (or not).

One can, but the point of regulation and safety standards is we don't have to become experts or blindly trust people in matters of our own safety absolutely.

MOO

 

[MsMarple]

Can someone explain how John Cameron and “the community” knew Titan had dropped the ascent weights and was trying to ascend?

My bolding:

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure, and that its inside censors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.

"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency," he said.

James Cameron says the Titan passengers probably knew the submersible was in trouble

The <em>Titanic</em> director has made 33 dives to the shipwreck and visited ocean depths in a submersible he built himself. He compares OceanGate to the Titanic in that both ignored safety warnings.

www.wbur.org

 

[ch_13]

The lawsuits are going to happen one way or another... personal or otherwise, I have no doubt about that.

My opinion is... we each have a personal due diligence regarding the risks we take (assuming we have no mental deficiencies nor access to additional information). I know others disagree.

Of course I believe that everyone has to do their personal due diligence. But one can only do so much diligence and at some point you have to trust that you're not being led astray.

In hindsight it's easy to say that the passengers should have been alarmed that the sub was built from carbon fiber and it wasn't certified. Or maybe they should have checked around the deep sub community to see what kind of reputation Rush had. But on the other hand, the voyages to the Titanic were being written up in the NY Times and Smithsonian Magazine. The OceanGate board of directors included retired admirals and astronauts. There was a legendary Titanic diver associated with the project. The CEO was telling people that this was as safe as crossing the street. Is it really surprising if the passengers felt reassured and didn't dig further?

Case in point: Not that long ago, I took a rafting trip with an outfitter. I checked their reviews on Yelp and TripAdvisor and they were fairly positive. Was that sufficient? Should I have asked them questions about the conditions of their rafts and what materials they were made of? Should I have investigated if they were ever sued? Should I have confirmed that their state license was in good order? Should I have called the local chamber of commerce and asked about their reputation? How much due diligence is enough?


Edit - Let me add that my perspective on this has shifted somewhat since seeing those Jay Bloom texts. Stockton Rush was definitely underplaying the risks to his potential customers. He made this voyage to the bottom of the ocean in a largely untested 'exploratory' vehicle seem like a jaunt in the park. Maybe the passengers should have seen through him, but I bet he was a charismatic and convincing salesman.

 

[iamshadow21]

Can someone explain how John Cameron and “the community” knew Titan had dropped the ascent weights and was trying to ascend?

My bolding:

Cameron told ABC News that he believes the Titan's hull began to crack under pressure, and that its inside censors gave the passengers a warning to that effect.

"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency," he said.

James Cameron says the Titan passengers probably knew the submersible was in trouble

The <em>Titanic</em> director has made 33 dives to the shipwreck and visited ocean depths in a submersible he built himself. He compares OceanGate to the Titanic in that both ignored safety warnings.

www.wbur.org

I assume 'inside the community' is the deep sea submersible bush telegraph. It's not a very big group and everyone seems to know everyone. Wouldn't surprise me if there's a group chat or private email chain that's been blowing up over the last week. They're all over the world and the internet would be where they've been discussing this.

MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

Can someone explain how John Cameron and “the community” knew Titan had dropped the ascent weights and was trying to ascend?

I don’t have a link handy, but from stuff I read early today, I got the sense the extreme deep sea exploration community is pretty darn small when it comes down to it, and James Cameron has been doing it a long, long time (almost since the location of the Titanic was first discovered in the 80s?). So these people all talk to each other (“the community”), and I think I read it included members of the military, and others who would be aware of the possible/probable outcomes.

 

[fred&edna]

Were Mr Reiss and his wife simple fools conned by (huckster) Rushton, too?? I don't think they feel that way.

'Simpsons' Writer Mike Reiss Reveals Titanic Sub Experience, Tech Issues on Ocean Floor

 

[crhedBngr]

3 words and a wildcard started my google search
pretty sure there are more documents. I’m trying to download others…

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/marine-technology-society-committee-2018-letter-to-ocean-gate/eddb63615a7b3764/full.pdf

eta: We‘re under tornado alert. It’s thunder storming so bad - my power keeps browning out. It’s one hell of a thunderstorm, I noticed we had several shingles gone from just last night. We’ve sure had our share In OK. I’ve gotta go. Be back later.. maybe @gitana1 can help with explanations or find more.

Oh, my.

Stay safe!!

JMVHO.

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder what evidence James Cameron is using.

Anyone know?

JMO.

James Cameron has been liaising with the deep sea diving community ... perhaps there is some overlap with this community and the rescuers. So he has heard about the position of the debris.

Eg:
"Cameron connected with people he knows in the deep-sea diving community and was told the submersible had lost communication and tracking simultaneously"
"Cameron, who directed the hit 1997 film “Titanic” and has made 33 dives to the Titanic wreckage, said he then talked with other people and “got confirmation that there was some kind of loud noise that was consistent with an implosion event.” "

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/23/us/james-cameron-titan-submersible-ac360-interview/index.html