Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[ch_13]

I don't see Rush as a "huckster". If he sold a trip that he wouldn't go on himself, I'd agree.
He built and flew an experimental plane when he went to meet the Blooms.
His words and mindset were true to his actions. He believed in what he was doing and that it was safe enough.
Obviously, it wasn't. I wish the non-explorer father and son weren't on the sub especially. I wish the accident hadn't happened.
I also know that experimentation and exploration aren't free and funds are needed to support. It wasn't a commercial endeavor but a funded experiment.

It was a tragedy. There are lessons to be learned, but I don't think it was a good guy/bad guy situation.

JMO.

I respectfully disagree that this wasn't a commercial endeavor for Rush. He openly talked about OceanGate becoming the SpaceX or Virgin Galactic of the sea. He thought that the sub business would make him a billionaire.

These are some excerpts from a 2017 Fast Company article:

Rush, it turns out, has a lot more in common with Richard Branson than Steve Zissou. While he certainly loves the mystery and allure of the sea, he is also a businessman—he earned a business degree from Berkeley and helmed a few IP ventures—who can’t help but see the ocean as a vast mass of resources filled with oil and gas reserves, diamond mining, and rare earth minerals to be harvested and profited from.
...
Eventually, as the pool of wealthy adventure-minded travelers willing to take a dive in a sub dwindles, Rush hopes that his submarine technology will be well proven, and he can start to contract with the biggest of the high rollers: oil and gas companies. “The biggest resource is oil and gas, and they spend about $16 billion a year on robots to service oil and gas platforms,” he explains. “But oil and gas [companies] don’t take new technology. They want it proven, they want it out there.”

The Titanic trips help make the case, showing those oil and gas companies that his technology works, while making a profit—something the company hasn’t quite done yet. “We’ll be profitable with the Titanic trips,” says Rush. “The Titanic is where we go from startup to ongoing business.”

https://www.fastcompany.com/40406673/the-man-who-wants-to-send-us-to-the-bottom-of-the-ocean

Check out the article, there's a lot more about his business strategy and future plans.

 

[Kingsley]

I respectfully disagree that this wasn't a commercial endeavor for Rush. He openly talked about OceanGate becoming the SpaceX or Virgin Galactic of the sea. He thought that the sub business would make him a billionaire.

These are some excerpts from a 2017 Fast Company article:

Rush, it turns out, has a lot more in common with Richard Branson than Steve Zissou. While he certainly loves the mystery and allure of the sea, he is also a businessman—he earned a business degree from Berkeley and helmed a few IP ventures—who can’t help but see the ocean as a vast mass of resources filled with oil and gas reserves, diamond mining, and rare earth minerals to be harvested and profited from.
...
Eventually, as the pool of wealthy adventure-minded travelers willing to take a dive in a sub dwindles, Rush hopes that his submarine technology will be well proven, and he can start to contract with the biggest of the high rollers: oil and gas companies. “The biggest resource is oil and gas, and they spend about $16 billion a year on robots to service oil and gas platforms,” he explains. “But oil and gas [companies] don’t take new technology. They want it proven, they want it out there.”

The Titanic trips help make the case, showing those oil and gas companies that his technology works, while making a profit—something the company hasn’t quite done yet. “We’ll be profitable with the Titanic trips,” says Rush. “The Titanic is where we go from startup to ongoing business.”

https://www.fastcompany.com/40406673/the-man-who-wants-to-send-us-to-the-bottom-of-the-ocean

Check out the article, there's a lot more about his business strategy and future plans.

I don't disagree at all that experimental technology often moves to commercial and there is a lot of money to be made.
Thanks for the article quote.

 

[Cryptic]

It’s crazy to me that Rush kept finding successful business owners and entrepreneurs - intelligent people - who were willing to ignore red flags.

The British / Pakistani Billionaire and his young son aside, I think most of Rush's intelligent and astute customers had the following line of thought:

- I am 60(+) years old. My children are grown, they are well provided for and I have accomplished my career goals.

- I like exploring, pushing the limits, and.... degrees of danger excite me.

- Some people- usually younger and unmarried thrill seekers, get into cave diving with calculated risks. But... I prefer the Titanic dive in the home made sub with calculated risks.

 

[PrairieWind]

I respectfully disagree that this wasn't a commercial endeavor for Rush. He openly talked about OceanGate becoming the SpaceX or Virgin Galactic of the sea. He thought that the sub business would make him a billionaire.

These are some excerpts from a 2017 Fast Company article:

Rush, it turns out, has a lot more in common with Richard Branson than Steve Zissou. While he certainly loves the mystery and allure of the sea, he is also a businessman—he earned a business degree from Berkeley and helmed a few IP ventures—who can’t help but see the ocean as a vast mass of resources filled with oil and gas reserves, diamond mining, and rare earth minerals to be harvested and profited from.
...
Eventually, as the pool of wealthy adventure-minded travelers willing to take a dive in a sub dwindles, Rush hopes that his submarine technology will be well proven, and he can start to contract with the biggest of the high rollers: oil and gas companies. “The biggest resource is oil and gas, and they spend about $16 billion a year on robots to service oil and gas platforms,” he explains. “But oil and gas [companies] don’t take new technology. They want it proven, they want it out there.”

The Titanic trips help make the case, showing those oil and gas companies that his technology works, while making a profit—something the company hasn’t quite done yet. “We’ll be profitable with the Titanic trips,” says Rush. “The Titanic is where we go from startup to ongoing business.”

https://www.fastcompany.com/40406673/the-man-who-wants-to-send-us-to-the-bottom-of-the-ocean

Check out the article, there's a lot more about his business strategy and future plans.

That is a good article.

I certain don't think Rush was a "huckster." He was ambitious and pushing boundaries. I don't know if his motivation was exploration or just making money, but it maybe doesn't matter. I saw his comment about regulations getting in the way. There is some of those comments I agree with. But he was pushing things too far. Elon Musk has achieved what he has with SpaceX by hiring the best brightest engineers available and giving them opportunities. Rush wasn't dong that. He seemed to be limiting access, not allowing third party review. This was causing his innovation to cross over into recklessness.

 

[Sundog]

Hopefully investigators will conduct a forensic financial audit which may throw some light on Rush’s ambitions and actions.

It may turn out that he was struggling to find funds and was willing to take risks he might not have done otherwise.

Such behavior in other industries would label Rush as a loose cannon and wise investors would steer clear. The same may have been happening here. The big question that may never be answered is what was his state of mind when he stepped into Titan that day?

It’s crazy to me that Rush kept finding successful business owners and entrepreneurs - intelligent people - who were willing to ignore red flags.
All MOO

Rush's family will know his "state of mind" that day, and so will the crew, if any investigative authorities have any concerns they can ask.

With regard to financial audit of OceanGate, I don't know why this would be done unless there was some evidence of financial crimes that could lead to an audit. They would have to have probable cause and bring charges against him for that to happen. I don't see that.

JMO

 

[Sundog]

I respectfully disagree that this wasn't a commercial endeavor for Rush. He openly talked about OceanGate becoming the SpaceX or Virgin Galactic of the sea. He thought that the sub business would make him a billionaire.

These are some excerpts from a 2017 Fast Company article:

Rush, it turns out, has a lot more in common with Richard Branson than Steve Zissou. While he certainly loves the mystery and allure of the sea, he is also a businessman—he earned a business degree from Berkeley and helmed a few IP ventures—who can’t help but see the ocean as a vast mass of resources filled with oil and gas reserves, diamond mining, and rare earth minerals to be harvested and profited from.
...
Eventually, as the pool of wealthy adventure-minded travelers willing to take a dive in a sub dwindles, Rush hopes that his submarine technology will be well proven, and he can start to contract with the biggest of the high rollers: oil and gas companies. “The biggest resource is oil and gas, and they spend about $16 billion a year on robots to service oil and gas platforms,” he explains. “But oil and gas [companies] don’t take new technology. They want it proven, they want it out there.”

The Titanic trips help make the case, showing those oil and gas companies that his technology works, while making a profit—something the company hasn’t quite done yet. “We’ll be profitable with the Titanic trips,” says Rush. “The Titanic is where we go from startup to ongoing business.”

https://www.fastcompany.com/40406673/the-man-who-wants-to-send-us-to-the-bottom-of-the-ocean

Check out the article, there's a lot more about his business strategy and future plans.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a business strategy and future plans and aspiring to be a billionaire. Many adventurous and entrepreneurial individuals have similar goals and why not? The issue is about the safety of the submersible, IMO, and the accountability that was ignored regarding certification, continuous testing after earlier dives, etc.

IMO

 

[PrairieWind]

Rush's family will know his "state of mind" that day, and so will the crew, if any investigative authorities have any concerns they can ask.

With regard to financial audit of OceanGate, I don't know why this would be done unless there was some evidence of financial crimes that could lead to an audit. They would have to have probable cause and bring charges against him for that to happen. I don't see that.

JMO

Your are right that the NTSB/Coast Guard investigation wont be looking at financial things likely. Just the actual cause of the accident. It would take a criminal probe to look in to those things. I don't know about the Canadian inquiry however, they maybe could do that all inclusive.

I see there is OceanGate Expeditions Ltd, the Bahamian company, and OceanGate, Inc. the corporation in Washington. I wonder who actually owned the submarine. I think the Bahamian company was the operating company that contracted with clients, but that doesn't mean it owned the vehicle.

 

[ch_13]

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a business strategy and future plans and aspiring to be a billionaire. Many adventurous and entrepreneurial individuals have similar goals and why not? The issue is about the safety of the submersible, IMO, and the accountability that was ignored regarding certification, continuous testing after earlier dives, etc.

IMO

I don't disagree, but I was responding to a post that was claiming this wasn't a commercial venture. I was pointing out that in Rush's own words, he was interested in the moneymaking aspects of DSVs. This wasn't a purely altruistic undertaking.

 

[MsMarple]

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Newfoundland and Labrador (RCMP NL), Canada, announced today that it is examining the circumstances that led to the deaths of the five individuals who were aboard the submersible Titan to determine if a full investigation is warranted. Such an investigation will proceed only if the RCMP's examination of the circumstances indicate criminal, federal or provincial laws may possibly have been broken.

RCMP Newfoundland and Labrador examining circumstances that led to deaths of those aboard the submersible Titan | Royal Canadian Mounted Police

 

[Trebor5591]

OceanGate CEO Bragged About Using Expired Carbon Fiber [from Boeing Aircraft] to Build Doomed Submarine​

"Arnie Weissman, editor-in-chief of Travel Weekly, initially agreed to join the June expedition, the Washington Post reports, but backed out at the last minute due to a scheduling conflict. A May dive he was supposed to go on also was canceled due to bad weather.

A conversation he had with OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush the night before the expedition, however, still haunts him to this day.

According to Weissman, Rush had bought the carbon fiber used to make the Titan "at a big discount from Boeing," because "it was past its shelf life for use in airplanes.""

MSN

 

[MsMarple]

ST. JOHN'S, N.L. -- A maritime law professor at Louisiana's Tulane University says the owner of a small submersible that imploded Sunday on its way to the wreck of the Titanic will likely seek court protection -- and soon.

Davies said in an interview that the company would first have to decide which country's liability laws would be most favourable.

Such laws allow a vessel owner to cap the amount of money it could be ordered to pay out, but only if the owner can prove it was far enough removed from any wrongdoing.

Titan owner OceanGate will likely seek court protection, and soon: lawyer

A maritime law professor at Louisiana's Tulane University says the owner of a small submersible that imploded Sunday on its way to the wreck of the Titanic will likely seek court protection -- and soon.

beta.ctvnews.ca

 

[Cool Cats]

Youngest Person to Explore 'Titanic' Site Details 'Safety Issues': 'I Fell Unconscious'

Sebastian Harris was 13 years old when he made a voyage to the wreckage of the famous ship in 2005

www.yahoo.com

 

[Sundog]

Youngest Person to Explore 'Titanic' Site Details 'Safety Issues': 'I Fell Unconscious'

Sebastian Harris was 13 years old when he made a voyage to the wreckage of the famous ship in 2005

www.yahoo.com

View attachment 431222

In the interview with Suleman Dawood's mother, she said that Suleman had long wanted to go on a submersible dive to see the Titanic, but that OceanGate did not allow passengers under 18 years of age. And when Suleman first became eligible, it was when Covid hit and Titan's trips were postponed.

So it is interesting that MIR took a 13 year old on a submersible dive to the Titanic in 2005.



edited for clarity

 

[Cool Cats]

In the interview with Suleman Dawood's mother, she said that Suleman had long wanted to go on a submersible dive to see the Titanic, but that OceanGate did not allow passengers under 18 years of age. And when Suleman was eligible, Covid hit and Titan's trips were postponed.

So it is interesting that MIR took a 13 year old on a submersible dive to the Titanic in 2005.

Good point.

I am sure it is only because his father took him, his father is
Titanic expedition leader G. Michael Harris. He went with his father.

Photo of them together

Youngest person ever to visit Titanic lost consciousness on ‘dangerous’ expedition

Sebastian Harris was just 13 when he and his Titanic expedition leader dad G. Michael Harris set off to explore the wreckage in 2005

www.ladbible.com

 

[Gardenista]

In the interview with Suleman Dawood's mother, she said that Suleman had long wanted to go on a submersible dive to see the Titanic, but that OceanGate did not allow passengers under 18 years of age. And when Suleman first became eligible, it was when Covid hit and Titan's trips were postponed.

So it is interesting that MIR took a 13 year old on a submersible dive to the Titanic in 2005.



edited for clarity

My guess why OceanGate did this is because it was experimental and children can't give consent like all of the adults did who went on the Titan.

 

[SophieRose]

Rush's family will know his "state of mind" that day, and so will the crew, if any investigative authorities have any concerns they can ask.

With regard to financial audit of OceanGate, I don't know why this would be done unless there was some evidence of financial crimes that could lead to an audit. They would have to have probable cause and bring charges against him for that to happen. I don't see that.

JMO

I was wondering if Rush's wife Wendy was aboard the mother ship that carried Titan. I thought I saw her in one of the videos of other expeditions.

Stockton Rush Family: Wife Wendy Rush Works at OceanGate

Learn about the family of OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush, including his wife, Wendy Rush.

heavy.com

That podcast says it costs $250,000 to go on the Titanic sub expedition. It says that Rush’s wife, Wendy, “works communication with the sub.” Her role was to send directions to the sub in part, the podcast said. The submersible is called “Titan.”

 

[Cool Cats]

My guess why OceanGate did this is because it was experimental and children can't give consent like all of the adults did who went on the Titan.

Yup.

If a seventeen year old had died in the implosion, any liability release forms he had signed would be null and void.

 

[10ofRods]

Since the submersible was not purchased whole, I do wonder if anyone "owned" it as a vehicle. I suspect that OceanGate has legal documents outlining which branch of OceanGate registered it (it is definitely in the international registry of sea craft, but I'm not sure if that registration has to state or does state ownership - it's more just so that ships can register at ports and have paperwork to show where they are from.

Since the Titan did not travel alone and was basically a submersible gadget (that could have been operated remotely, as some submersibles are), it might not have a registered owner. In that case, the LLC or the other legal entity that purchased the parts and paid for the hull building process would likely own it.

The Marine Traffic website listed the owner as simply OceanGate, IIRC. I figure that would be the legal status as well (but which part of Oceangate? No idea).

IMO.

 

[Von Moltke]

I respectfully disagree that this wasn't a commercial endeavor for Rush. He openly talked about OceanGate becoming the SpaceX or Virgin Galactic of the sea. He thought that the sub business would make him a billionaire.

These are some excerpts from a 2017 Fast Company article:

Rush, it turns out, has a lot more in common with Richard Branson than Steve Zissou. While he certainly loves the mystery and allure of the sea, he is also a businessman—he earned a business degree from Berkeley and helmed a few IP ventures—who can’t help but see the ocean as a vast mass of resources filled with oil and gas reserves, diamond mining, and rare earth minerals to be harvested and profited from.
...
Eventually, as the pool of wealthy adventure-minded travelers willing to take a dive in a sub dwindles, Rush hopes that his submarine technology will be well proven, and he can start to contract with the biggest of the high rollers: oil and gas companies. “The biggest resource is oil and gas, and they spend about $16 billion a year on robots to service oil and gas platforms,” he explains. “But oil and gas [companies] don’t take new technology. They want it proven, they want it out there.”

The Titanic trips help make the case, showing those oil and gas companies that his technology works, while making a profit—something the company hasn’t quite done yet. “We’ll be profitable with the Titanic trips,” says Rush. “The Titanic is where we go from startup to ongoing business.”

https://www.fastcompany.com/40406673/the-man-who-wants-to-send-us-to-the-bottom-of-the-ocean

Check out the article, there's a lot more about his business strategy and future plans.

One may wonder how many of such companies exist that sell trips to dangerous places on earth in the air or into the oceans. One thing is certain: better check them carefully, just in case don''t fall for ads, appearances.

 

[Cool Cats]

I don't disagree, but I was responding to a post that was claiming this wasn't a commercial venture. I was pointing out that in Rush's own words, he was interested in the moneymaking aspects of DSVs. This wasn't a purely altruistic undertaking.

Right and Jay Bloom said:

"Rush put a big push on him to book the trip. “He was doing research and he had some scientific endeavors that he was doing. He was using tourists to pay for it,” he recalls. “That's how he was financing his operation, by charging observers to go with him.”

'Titan' Family Tragedy Averted Due to Son’s Warnings About Safety of Sub

Jay Bloom and his 20-year-old son Sean Bloom backed out of their plans to board the 'Titan' submersible over safety concerns, a decision that saved their lives.

people.com