Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #3

[LinasK]

Yes, last week one of the owners of a Titanic submersive company was interviewed by MSM and he made it clear that he uses only certified and tested equipment, etc. I didn't catch the name of his company. I am guessing there are other companies out there that offer the same services, but hopefully are above board regarding certification, testing and retesting, etc.

None others use Carbon Fiber. All use steel or Titanium and take a max of 3 passengers.

 

[ch_13]

Quote:
"The second question is whether such experimentation should be banned. "

Actually what OceanGate did is banned.
Well in many Countries including the USA.

To take on tourists the vessel must meet certain official certifications and Titan did not meet these.
To get around this, Titan launched off Canada because Canada doesn't have the tourist requirements that we in the USA have.

There were other ways OceanGate got around the regulations, such as the company being registered in the Bahamas.

I'm going off of memory here so anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

2 Cents

I'm not entirely sure that current U.S. law bans voyages like the Titan.

From a Washington Post article:

Before the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993, tourist submersibles could be piloted by anyone with a valid U.S. Coast Guard captain’s license. But the law created new regulations for vessels diving deep, so long as they set off in American waters or fly a U.S. flag. Titan did neither.

I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the clause about setting off in U.S. waters. If the Polar Prince had embarked from Maine, would the Passenger Safety Act have applied? I don't think so, because the Titan itself only operated in international waters. I've been trying to find clarification one way or the other, but none of the articles I've read have definitively stated that the Act would have applied if the support ship left from the U.S.

In any case, it's ironic that for as much as Stockton Rush hated regulations which he felt stifled innovation, his most lasting legacy will probably be a bunch of new laws in Canada and the U.S. to bar others from doing what he did.

 

[PrairieWind]

I'm not entirely sure that current U.S. law bans voyages like the Titan.

From a Washington Post article:

Before the Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993, tourist submersibles could be piloted by anyone with a valid U.S. Coast Guard captain’s license. But the law created new regulations for vessels diving deep, so long as they set off in American waters or fly a U.S. flag. Titan did neither.

I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the clause about setting off in U.S. waters. If the Polar Prince had embarked from Maine, would the Passenger Safety Act have applied? I don't think so, because the Titan itself only operated in international waters. I've been trying to find clarification one way or the other, but none of the articles I've read have definitively stated that the Act would have applied if the support ship left from the U.S.

In any case, it's ironic that for as much as Stockton Rush hated regulations which he felt stifled innovation, his most lasting legacy will probably be a bunch of new laws in Canada and the U.S. to bar others from doing what he did.

I think he did things this way as an attempt to avoid the US Court system. He probably won't succeed in that. but you are right. In trying to avoid so many regulations, he will ultimately have created as situation where more regulation is imposed. Dumb.

 

[MsMarple]

It is rather critical that Rush was an aeronautical engineer, and not a naval architect. At least from what I've seen, there was no naval architect involved in the design. Submersibles are a specialty, and Rush did not have any specialists working with him. That's equivalent to building a bridge without a structural engineer.

A naval architect experienced in submersibles would have modeled the hull design on a computer, simulating the loads. It would have been immediately apparent that carbon fiber was not suitable for hull operating at such depths. The lack of suitability of carbon fiber should have ruled out this material.

The unsuitability of a carbon fiber hull was already known. In 2011 billionaire Richard Branson hoped to develop a submersible that could visit five of the deepest parts of the ocean with a goal of eventually charging people up to a half million dollars for the rides. The overall design was different than Titan’s but it used similar materials including carbon fiber.

Unfortunately in 2014 it turned out that pressure tests revealed that after the first dive the hull posed a safety problem:

"Once Virgin took over the project, the importance of the one-off record dive shifted and they wanted to repurpose the craft. They wanted to do five dives," Wright said. "The problem is the strength of the vessel does decrease after each dive. It is strongest on the first dive."

Last week, a spokesman for Virgin said that the five ocean dives had already been scrapped.

"We were not sure [DeepFlight Challenger] would make it down," the spokesperson said. "That project has been put on ice while we look at other technology that works."

Richard Branson Has Put DeepFlight Challenger Project 'On Ice' For Now

Virgin Galactic is scrapping its five ocean dive plans with its DeepFlight Challenger, which was supposed to bring aquanauts to the bottom of the ocean. A statement from the submarine's builder hinted why.

www.techtimes.com

Interview from 2011:

Graham Hawkes Talks Deep Flight Challenger

Billionaire adventurer Richard Branson recently announced his plans to go to the deepest parts of the ocean in the one-man submersible Deep Flight Challenger. PM spoke with the man behind the Deep Flight Challenger, Graham Hawkes.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[Sunny Day]

When I read that the teenager had taken his Rubik's cube with him so he could break a worlds record and be in the Guinness Book of World Records it just totally broke my heart. So incredibly sad. I can't stop thinking about that.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

I have to say that I read an article interviewing Mrs. Dawood, wife of Shahzada and mother of Suleman, both lost in the submersible and my heart absolutely broke for her. Reading how excited they were and how her son was planning to film himself solving a Rubik's cube at the Titanic. This is SUCH a tragedy. I can't even imagine being her, waiting on the mothership for her husband and son and the agonizing worry during the time they were "missing". They also brought their 17 year old daughter aboard the mothership on the trip too. Just horrifying.

Frankly, we have an amusement park here with a very tall bungee jump ride. When you go on this ride you sign a waiver that says you can die, etc. No one going on the ride ever thinks that will happen because the ride operates constantly without incident. But all it would take for a terrible accident there would be a frayed rope nobody noticed.

I think that was probably a similar attitude to those on the sub, especially the excited father and son who seem to have not as much experience with exploring or submarining as the other occupants.

They probably didn't think there would be a problem, despite the waiver, since the submarine had made a couple previous successful attempts.

I think also, listening to Stockton Rush talk about his submersible and the attitudes he seemed to have toward safety is chilling now that the implosion happened. He seemed to have a texas-size ego and very little common sense.

 

[LinasK]

I have to say that I read an article interviewing Mrs. Dawood, wife of Shahzada and mother of Suleman, both lost in the submersible and my heart absolutely broke for her. Reading how excited they were and how her son was planning to film himself solving a Rubik's cube at the Titanic. This is SUCH a tragedy. I can't even imagine being her, waiting on the mothership for her husband and son and the agonizing worry during the time they were "missing". They also brought their 17 year old daughter aboard the mothership on the trip too. Just horrifying.

Frankly, we have an amusement park here with a very tall bungee jump ride. When you go on this ride you sign a waiver that says you can die, etc. No one going on the ride ever thinks that will happen because the ride operates constantly without incident. But all it would take for a terrible accident there would be a frayed rope nobody noticed.

I think that was probably a similar attitude to those on the sub, especially the excited father and son who seem to have not as much experience with exploring or submarining as the other occupants.

They probably didn't think there would be a problem, despite the waiver, since the submarine had made a couple previous successful attempts.

I think also, listening to Stockton Rush talk about his submersible and the attitudes he seemed to have toward safety is chilling now that the implosion happened. He seemed to have a texas-size ego and very little common sense.

Yeah, sadly it doesn't seem that the Daewood family gave the construction of the Titan the same due diligence that the Bloom family did.

 

[Gardenista]

Friend of ‘Titan’ Sub Victim’s Wife Tried Every Resource in Her Power to Help with Rescue (Exclusive)

When Tracy Ryan learned Hamish Harding was one of five people missing in the Titan submarine, she tried every resource imaginable to help her friend's husband

people.com

 

[arielilane]

Christine Dawood told BBC News that she was originally meant to be on the small submersible with her husband, Shahzada, but gave the spot to her 19-year-old son Suleman after seeing how excited he was about the prospect of seeing the Titanic.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1673481268846010371

https://twitter.com/48hours

Teen on doomed Titanic sub couldn't wait for chance to set Rubik's Cube record during trip, his mother says

Wife says seeing the Titanic was a lifelong dream for Shahzada Dawood, and their son Suleman had hoped to set a Guinness World Record on the ill-fated sub.

www.cbsnews.com

6/26/2023

London — The father and son who were among the five people who died on the OceanGate Titan submersible as it dived to tour the Titanic wreckage couldn't wait for the excursion — and the teen had his eye on setting a world record, according to the wife and mother of the victims. Christine Dawood told CBS News' partner network BBC News that she was originally meant to be on the small submersible with her husband, Shahzada, but gave the spot to her 19-year-old son Suleman after seeing how excited he was about the prospect of seeing the Titanic.

"I was really happy for them because, both of them, they were really, really wanted to do that for a very long time," she said.

According to Dawood, Suleman brought his Rubik's Cube on the submersible and planned to set the Guinness World Record for the deepest-ever completion of the puzzle once they reached the famous shipwreck. He could solve the three-dimensional puzzle in 12 seconds, she told BBC, and took it with him everywhere. [...]

 

[Luna20]

I don't see Rush as a "huckster". If he sold a trip that he wouldn't go on himself, I'd agree.
He built and flew an experimental plane when he went to meet the Blooms.
His words and mindset were true to his actions. He believed in what he was doing and that it was safe enough.
Obviously, it wasn't. I wish the non-explorer father and son weren't on the sub especially. I wish the accident hadn't happened.
I also know that experimentation and exploration aren't free and funds are needed to support. It wasn't a commercial endeavor but a funded experiment.

It was a tragedy. There are lessons to be learned, but I don't think it was a good guy/bad guy situation.

JMO.

I think Rush was looking for investors and that was the reason for pitching it to a specific demographic.

We don’t know the facts on his finances yet but I’m curious to see if he was up against the wall in some form or another. In his text that we have seen he seemed to defensively hard sell it with a touch of sarcasm.

Did he have tunnel vision for a reason? Was it his contractual job responsibility to book the ‘crew’ (clients), find investors to finance the project further?? Something impaired his ability to make the right decisions, including his ego.

 

[LadyL]

This kid was naive. I think Rush invited him along for the publicity: YouTuber Shares Footage from His Canceled 'Titan' Mission with Stockton Rush and Paul-Henri Nargeolet Ahead of Sub's Implosion

of course but it's mutual - he gets more followers and freebies and a free submersible ride out of it

 

[tarabull]

Titanic sub’s voice recordings, data to be probed as officials mull possible criminality

TSB Chairwoman Kathy Fox said voice recordings “could be useful in our investigation” but insisted that the investigation’s purpose was not to affix blame.

nypost.com

 

[Charlot123]

Titanic sub’s voice recordings, data to be probed as officials mull possible criminality

TSB Chairwoman Kathy Fox said voice recordings “could be useful in our investigation” but insisted that the investigation’s purpose was not to affix blame.

nypost.com

It is interesting to know what conclusions will be made. It appears that Rush was pretty outspoken about using outdated Boeing material. And there may be no law forbidding to sell it. Likewise, there were letters asking Rush to reconsider, but it is a voluntary measure. The submerge had not been certified, but it is not the same as someone certifying it for a bribe.

There might be just an ethical question coming down to, how much should be disclosed about the risks, especially to very young adults.

I think at this point in time, I am prepared to call Stoughton Rush's actions unethical. Maybe this is where it will stay.

 

[somequestions]

I think it is important to find out, from a structural perspective, why this tragedy happened.

One possibility put forth is that it was not a good idea to make the submersible out of 3 different types of materials.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

This youtuber spent 9 days preparing to go on the same sub, but his mission was canceled, lucky for him. This is a video of his experience, which was just a few weeks or days before the doomed mission.

 

[Eloise]

When I read that the teenager had taken his Rubik's cube with him so he could break a worlds record and be in the Guinness Book of World Records it just totally broke my heart. So incredibly sad. I can't stop thinking about that.

Yeah same. I do find it hard to have much sympathy for the others for a variety of reasons - different for each of them (for example, PH Nargeolet I do feel sad about, but he himself had lived a full life and knew the dangers well and was prepared to die down there), but I have loads of sympathy for young Suleman and his lost potential, and of course for his mum.

I can't help but feel like Stockton Rush basically got away with manslaughter, at least. JMO. You can give people all the waivers in the world to sign, it doesn't remove your ethical and moral obligation to make things as safe as possible (and I know at least where I live, having people sign a waiver doesn't actually do anything to protect you against claims of negligence anyway, though it may mitigate some claims)

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah same. I do find it hard to have much sympathy for the others for a variety of reasons - different for each of them (for example, PH Nargeolet I do feel sad about, but he himself had lived a full life and knew the dangers well and was prepared to die down there), but I have loads of sympathy for young Suleman and his lost potential, and of course for his mum.

I can't help but feel like Stockton Rush basically got away with manslaughter, at least. JMO. You can give people all the waivers in the world to sign, it doesn't remove your ethical and moral obligation to make things as safe as possible (and I know at least where I live, having people sign a waiver doesn't actually do anything to protect you against claims of negligence anyway, though it may mitigate some claims)

Imagine a man who invented something else. A flying car, for example. It is beautiful, all new materials. He says, I am an engineer, a Princeton grad, trust me, I have been working on the prototype for that many years, i have consulted all engineers in my hi-tech state, bla-bla. We’ll be the first group flying in a car to mount Rainier. With your love of travel, you have been to the space, to the Pole, this will be unique, totally new experience, you pay me $100 each for the gas, that’s all.

So he gets 3-4 people in, gets behind the wheel, takes off, then his invention falls on the ground and everyone dies.

Is this exactly getting away with murder? I don’t think so. He was that overconfident driver who ruined himself, his creation and the passengers.

Or simply, people who trust someone saying “I know how to do it”, should, in fact, use better judgment? But consider this, at least one of them, maybe more, trusted other people saying “i know how to do it”, and got back safely? So they previously had positive experience with people saying similar things.

 

[Eloise]

Imagine a man who invented something else. A flying car, for example. It is beautiful, all new materials. He says, I am an engineer, a Princeton grad, trust me, I have been working on the prototype for that many years, i have consulted all engineers in my hi-tech state, bla-bla. We’ll be the first group flying in a car to mount Rainier. With your love of travel, you have been to the space, to the Pole, this will be unique, totally new experience, you pay me $100 each for the gas, that’s all.

So he gets 3-4 people in, gets behind the wheel, takes off, then his invention falls on the ground and everyone dies.

Is this exactly getting away with murder? I don’t think so. He was that overconfident driver who ruined himself, his creation and the passengers.

Or simply, people who trust someone saying “I know how to do it”, should, in fact, use better judgment? But consider this, at least one of them, maybe more, trusted other people saying “i know how to do it”, and got back safely? So they previously had positive experience with people saying similar things.

I did say manslaughter. Murder obviously requires intent to kill, which wouldn't be there. But ignoring the pleas of peers who told him what he was doing was wrong, ignoring staff who told him what he was doing was wrong... he wasn't some brave inventor trying something new, he was simply going against all common sense and engineering knowledge and expertise. That's not being cutting edge or whatever, its just reckless. He dismissed the need to be safe on multiple occasions, according to many people who knew him. Its one thing to put yourself in danger in that way, but another thing entirely to drag others down with you (many of whom wouldn't ever be able to know any better) and expect them to even pay exorbitant amounts of money for the privilege.

 

[heavenly2012]

It is interesting to know what conclusions will be made. It appears that Rush was pretty outspoken about using outdated Boeing material. And there may be no law forbidding to sell it. Likewise, there were letters asking Rush to reconsider, but it is a voluntary measure. The submerge had not been certified, but it is not the same as someone certifying it for a bribe.

There might be just an ethical question coming down to, how much should be disclosed about the risks, especially to very young adults.

I think at this point in time, I am prepared to call Stoughton Rush's actions unethical. Maybe this is where it will stay.

I was wondering about ethics as well. He did so many unethical things to sidestep safety. Registering the Titan in the Bahamas and going out of Canada for example so it was never certified ever for safety. I thought his shady maneuvers may eventually be considered not only unethical but criminal. That’s what I think will be the result of the investigation.
How he was ever allowed to bring the public aboard and drive this sub that had never been certified I will never know.
I’m hoping there will be many rules and regulations to come out of this to prevent this happening again.

 

[MistyWaters]

Why is extreme ‘frontier travel’ booming despite the risks?

Not only do risky activities make people feel euphoric, they also convey status. But should there be limits on what tourists can do?

theconversation.com

Why are we so obsessed with extreme forms of tourism?​

Risky activities release chemicals in the brain that can be addictive. Research suggests engaging in risky tourism activities, such as scaling a high mountain, can bring about feelings of accomplishment and euphoria. Travellers report feeling alive and experiencing a sense of transformation.

Some are also attracted to the pristine, untouched and remote aspects of the locations that they visit. Furthermore, the element of fantasy associated with imagining certain places or stories, like the movie Titanic, can be alluring.

Besides physical frontiers, there is also the thrill people get at pushing the human body to its limits and facing one’s fears. Base-jumping, skydiving, bungee jumping and polar plunges are common examples of this.

In a slightly more mundane way, even tasting “scary food” pushes tourists outside of their comfort zone and helps them feel alive.

Still others make extreme tourist journeys to follow in the footsteps of their heroes, such as those who travel to Antarctica to pay homage to explorer Ernest Shackleton.

Extreme and risky activities not only make participants feel euphoric, but they also convey status. When bucket lists are ticked off and experiences shared on social media, this brings bragging rights. Research suggests many travellers seek recognition for undertaking the first, longest or most extreme experiences possible.

But frontier tourism is clearly not for all. It is usually only accessible to a privileged few, as the tragic circumstances of the Titan highlight. Passengers onboard the vessel reportedly paid US$250,000 for the voyage.