TN TN - Chloie Leverette, 9, & Gage Daniel, 7, Unionville, 23 Sept 2012

[raeann]

I wonder if investigators have spoken with any friends or family members who can confirm that the propane tanks were there before the fire.

Why would anyone need that many? Was the home in an area that was known to lose power for extended periods of time? Did the family keep other supplies stockpiled such as food and water, medical supplies, etc?

Did any of the propane tanks blow up?

That many tanks may indicate some type of a "survivalist" concept? Many of these believers have buried shelters on their properties and hide all aspects of their supply stocks in fear that neighbors or others will demand access to their supplies and shelters when the "apocalypse" occurs. They thought of the children hiding in an unknown buried shelter is somewhat haunting.

jmo

 

[K.jill]

It is a bit out there but if the fire was arson could the arsonist have brought the tanks for the purpose of intensifying the fire?

 

[revampz]

This can go a couple of ways cant it and I am still wondering about the "tooth" they thought they had found. Either the kids started the fire in the basement and like someone said the grandparents ran down and were maybe further away than at the core where the kids were, or they did run and are hiding somewhere (think they would have come out now plus it was night time) or the grandparents were murdered and the kids taken...........the first and last seem the most likely at this stage............the only other scenario is murder, suicide and the kids were taken somewhere else first..... Just thinking out aloud......all in all is a horrible situation.

 

[shefner]

I think the fact that we might never really know what happened is the worst. I often think about this in missing children's cases. The parents live their whole lives without knowing what happened....how overwhelming.

 

[debirlfan]

If the grandparents were survivalists, then they might well have had a hidden shelter somewhere stocked with food and supplies. Chances are the kids would know where it was - and maybe nobody else does. Hopefully authorities will think to check whether there have been past orders placed for dried food, etc.

 

[shefner]

We always joked around and called the "survivalists" we know by the name "end of timers" or "doomsdayers." I believe they may have some merit, however. I attended a couple of their meetings and learned so much. They discussed how to make medicines out of herbs, how to use natural plants from the woods for food in hard times, and how to make the most out of a generator. Many of them started dehydrating food so they would not have to depend on freezer storage. I never heard them discuss propane....but I do know that we used the small tanks for our cookstove when we went camping.

Twenty tanks is quite a lot. I really hope we learn more about this case.

 

[debirlfan]

A quick google re storing propane tanks also brings up the fact that they are sometimes used to store other gasses.

 

[MsFacetious]

Gage and Chloie

 

[GrainneDhu]

This can go a couple of ways cant it and I am still wondering about the "tooth" they thought they had found. Either the kids started the fire in the basement and like someone said the grandparents ran down and were maybe further away than at the core where the kids were, or they did run and are hiding somewhere (think they would have come out now plus it was night time) or the grandparents were murdered and the kids taken...........the first and last seem the most likely at this stage............the only other scenario is murder, suicide and the kids were taken somewhere else first..... Just thinking out aloud......all in all is a horrible situation.

When I couldn't find any media accounts of other body parts found, I wondered if perhaps the tooth was a baby tooth that one of the children had lost at some point and was being kept as a memento.

 

[gngr~snap]

If he had that many propane tanks in the basement he very well may have had gasoline down there as well. Makes me think there was a gas leak of some sort that ignited when the children were playing.I wonder if the was a playroom or family room downstairs?
Was an explosion heard?
IMO the children were in the basement at the time the fire started,
and the grandparents were over come by smoke while trying to find/save the children.. Perhaps even falling through the floor into the basement when it gave way.

If a dead bird and a dog were found, the children were either not there or not upstairs
with a way to escape...

Their autopsy might explain more. the simple fact that the grandparents didn't flee tells me they were dead OR they knew the kids were still in the home

 

[TreeClimbingGirl]

Phillip Grizzell, the man in the missing persons pictures on Grandpa's FB, appears to be his nephew. The woman named in this article as his mother:

http://www.t-g.com/story/1591946.html

Makes a post on grandpa's photo indicating they are brother and sister. Phillip Frizzel was found. However I can't find any information as to the COD, other than it was treated as a criminal investigation. He was 33.

Not sure if it is related, but it certainly is interesting.

Praying these babies are found safe.

 

[TxLady2]

If these tanks were properly closed, I don't think children would be able to open the valve. I can't open one if it's been closed tightly enough. Besides children that young would have been told about the dangers of messing with them, so why would they even want to open them?
I am pretty sure that if a person keeps that many propane tanks in the basement, they're going to check them fairly often to make sure they're closed and not leaking. They didn't cause the fire, or blow up, unless the valve was open or had a leak in it.

Wonder if grandpa did any welding. My FIL kept a couple of propane tanks specifically to use for his welding torch. But he just had them refilled when they got empty. I can't imagine why anyone would need 20 of them.

 

[Indy Anna]

Some considerations about the propane tanks:

How long had they been stored in the basement?​

How were the tanks transported? Who transported them?​

How were the tanks stored?​

If the tanks were recently delivered -- or maybe the tanks were delivered individually at different times -- one may have become damaged during transport. There could have been an undetected leak (maybe the tanks weren't inspected after delivery) and the children were near the tanks playing with something that caused a spark.

If there was a propane leak, the family bird probably had already died from the fumes. So, unless the leak was new, the grandparents would have known something was wrong.

Once the fire started, could the intense heat have caused the other tanks to explode? This is what I was initially thinking had happened after the fire started.

 

[mom2four717]

Any indication of what size the tanks are?

 

[summer_breeze]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/chloie-lev...ee-kids-father/story?id=17358917#.UGhC0ZhkyAg

By LINSEY DAVIS (@LinseyDavis)
Sept. 30, 2012

There are few clues this morning in the search for two missing Tennessee children following a house fire that killed their grandparents last week.

 

[belimom]

Some considerations about the propane tanks:

How long had they been stored in the basement?​

How were the tanks transported? Who transported them?​

How were the tanks stored?​

If the tanks were recently delivered -- or maybe the tanks were delivered individually at different times -- one may have become damaged during transport. There could have been an undetected leak (maybe the tanks weren't inspected after delivery) and the children were near the tanks playing with something that caused a spark.

If there was a propane leak, the family bird probably had already died from the fumes. So, unless the leak was new, the grandparents would have known something was wrong.

Once the fire started, could the intense heat have caused the other tanks to explode? This is what I was initially thinking had happened after the fire started.

bbm

I was just asking DH about the tanks, since he's dealt with storing the tanks on our sailboat so much. He said he watched an episode of MythBusters recently where they tested a propane tank in a fire to see if it would explode. They set a barn on fire with a propane tank in it. Two results were discovered:

1) The pressure-release valve melted. The result was a slow leak, with a flame 2 to 3 feet out like a torch that just kept burning until the tank was empty. The tank never exploded.

2) Since they wanted to test if the tank would explode, they removed the pressure-release valve with special tools and sealed the tank somehow. The tank did explode, but it was from the expanding gas inside. The gas burned off very quickly and did not add add much 'fuel to the fire'.

Not sure what this would mean, other than lighting a match around tanks wouldn't result in an explosion that easily. Even if the tanks were leaking to begin with, the gas in the air that would catch fire would burn off too quickly to get any sort of reaction from the other tanks. Much different than a liquid fuel.

I'm really starting to believe that the children are not there... I hope they are found safe.

 

[MsFacetious]

If he had that many propane tanks in the basement he very well may have had gasoline down there as well. Makes me think there was a gas leak of some sort that ignited when the children were playing.I wonder if the was a playroom or family room downstairs?
Was an explosion heard?
IMO the children were in the basement at the time the fire started,
and the grandparents were over come by smoke while trying to find/save the children.. Perhaps even falling through the floor into the basement when it gave way.

If a dead bird and a dog were found, the children were either not there or not upstairs
with a way to escape...

Their autopsy might explain more. the simple fact that the grandparents didn't flee tells me they were dead OR they knew the kids were still in the home

Or they mistakenly THOUGHT the children were still in the home.

If the kids accidentally started the fire and then ran, the Grandparents would not know that.

If someone came in and abducted the kids without the Grandparents knowing, then set the fire to cover up evidence.
The Grandparents would not know that either.

If a fire starts in your house the first thing you do is get everyone out.
I don't think they would have just run out of the house without getting the kids... and I don't think they would have assumed the kids escaped.

Hopefully the autopsy will tell us if they were alive when the fire started. That might give us a few more hints.

I do wonder if maybe the autopsy DID show that, which is why they issued an Amber Alert for the kids?

 

[MsFacetious]

"I don't know what to think. I don't know what to think," Christopher Daniel, Gage's father, told The Associated Press Saturday.
"They don't think that they burned up in the fire, the way I took it they don't."

After cadaver-sniffing dogs combed through the debris, only physical evidence remained of the grandparents, not the children.

"If we just had ashes, their little bodies, you know, but we don't have anything," said the children's aunt, Mary Lamb, Molli McClaran's sister.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/chloie-lev...ee-kids-father/story?id=17358917#.UGh5UlF2OUM

 

[gitana1]

This immediately reminded me of the Sodder children in WV... Eerily similar.

Sodder Family - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

This reminds me of the Sodder children. It has never been determined if they actually died in the fire or if they were abducted.

I do hope that these babies are alive somehow, somewhere.

But in the Sodder case, bones and pieces of internal organs were spotted by firemen. However, before the house could be fully cleared and any remains removed, the family bulldozed four to five feet of dirt on everything. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5067563

It think it's pretty clear that the five Sodder kids burnt up in that fire.

I don't know what to think here.

We always joked around and called the "survivalists" we know by the name "end of timers" or "doomsdayers." I believe they may have some merit, however. I attended a couple of their meetings and learned so much. They discussed how to make medicines out of herbs, how to use natural plants from the woods for food in hard times, and how to make the most out of a generator. Many of them started dehydrating food so they would not have to depend on freezer storage. I never heard them discuss propane....but I do know that we used the small tanks for our cookstove when we went camping.

Twenty tanks is quite a lot. I really hope we learn more about this case.

I don't know. Some of the things they learn are okay, in case of a temporary emergency such as a major natural disaster. But, I don't actually understand the survivalist mentality that much. If the world as we know it had been destroyed and only a few people left to try to scrape a life together, I'd rather be in heaven than left in the hell on earth.

 

[Hejlena]

this situation bothers me greatly. are there ground searches being conducted? what its the terrain in the surrounding areas like? RSOs in the area? seems that enough information is there now to at least err on the side of caution and actively search for these babies. the Amber alert is a terrific start, but where is front page-all out-feet on the ground searches and news coverage? praying for guardian angels.