TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[bessie]

oh o.k.I am wrong I
iam having issues again
sorry

Aww... don't feel bad, December. I almost missed that part, myself

 

[bessie]

The articles states that homicide investigator CM said:

"I believe she was assaulted somewhere else and the body brought here..."

Now we know the source of that theory. Nice to have an answer because it's been bugging me. Next question: what is the basis for it?

 

[Backwoods]

i think at the very least she may have been in a vehicle for a while. she may have still been wearing her coat then and perhaps pushed onto the floor. i mean, this is speculation. but, that would be a simple way to get foreign particles on her coat.

insulation is interesting since that relates to another business in the roller drome building. was she pulled away from skating into another room at some point?

I just used "insulation" as a possible "foreign particles" source going on things I have read in other cases, I think -- I had forgotten about the insulation business at the Rollerdrome building... <gulp> Probably not, but it is kind of weird, huh?

Maybe she could have been grabbed as she arrived at the Rollerdrome -- just outside or in a hallway, etc.? One thing I've thought -- the noise of a roller skating rink would be a good "cover" for any protest Kathy might have been able to make initially.

 

[Labpawsx12]

Why do police believe Kathy was "held hostage in a vacant building" before she was killed, vs. the murder's home, car, etc.? In all of the information that we have read, what would make them come to the conclusion she was held in a "vacant building"? Of course we can all speculate but I wondered if they have evidence of this and have just not released it.

"One man questioned was arrested Tuesday on charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor." Does that charge have anything to do with Kathy? The man was questioned about Kathy's murder and then arrested for contributing to the del. of a minor. Three paragraphs above that says 3 persons were questioned but all were released. (Kingsport Times). From previous posts we know that 3 men were "suspects", were questioned, released, and cleared. So.......who is the guy that was questioned and then charged for contributing? And did it have anything to do with Kathy?

Is there a reason that we keep using the initials of J.R.J. instead of using his name? Someone posted his criminal record. I have a list of different addresses that he has lived at and phone numbers. Is it okay to post this? I also have his wife's name.

December, or anyone else, do you know what Kathy's fathers name was? I don't see anywhere that has listed it.

Did Kathy have any sort of problems with her eyes? Please don't take this as me being disrespectful, I just tend to pay attention to detail. In the photo of Kathy, it looks like her right eye is fully open but her left eye is halfway or almost closed. I just wondered if it was the photo or if she may have had some sort of handicap.

"Niece of Kathy Jones" commented that Kathy was buried in Springhill Cemetery. "December", you said she was buried in Westlawn Cemetery. The niece of Kathy also says that her brother, Kelly, is buried beside her. I cannot find an obit for Kathy, Kelly or Nora. I know it's expensive to place obit ads. Could they not have been placed because of the family's financial situation? I've checked the cemetery website for each of the above cemeteries but neither has maps of the deceased. Does anyone know if there is a family plot and at which one?

I have something else to add but I need to check on one thing first before I post.

 

[Backwoods]

Why do police believe Kathy was "held hostage in a vacant building" before she was killed, vs. the murder's home, car, etc.? In all of the information that we have read, what would make them come to the conclusion she was held in a "vacant building"? Of course we can all speculate but I wondered if they have evidence of this and have just not released it.

"One man questioned was arrested Tuesday on charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor." Does that charge have anything to do with Kathy? The man was questioned about Kathy's murder and then arrested for contributing to the del. of a minor. Three paragraphs above that says 3 persons were questioned but all were released. (Kingsport Times). From previous posts we know that 3 men were "suspects", were questioned, released, and cleared. So.......who is the guy that was questioned and then charged for contributing? And did it have anything to do with Kathy?

Is there a reason that we keep using the initials of J.R.J. instead of using his name? Someone posted his criminal record. I have a list of different addresses that he has lived at and phone numbers. Is it okay to post this? I also have his wife's name.

December, or anyone else, do you know what Kathy's fathers name was? I don't see anywhere that has listed it.

Did Kathy have any sort of problems with her eyes? Please don't take this as me being disrespectful, I just tend to pay attention to detail. In the photo of Kathy, it looks like her right eye is fully open but her left eye is halfway or almost closed. I just wondered if it was the photo or if she may have had some sort of handicap.

"Niece of Kathy Jones" commented that Kathy was buried in Springhill Cemetery. "December", you said she was buried in Westlawn Cemetery. The niece of Kathy also says that her brother, Kelly, is buried beside her. I cannot find an obit for Kathy, Kelly or Nora. I know it's expensive to place obit ads. Could they not have been placed because of the family's financial situation? I've checked the cemetery website for each of the above cemeteries but neither has maps of the deceased. Does anyone know if there is a family plot and at which one?

I have something else to add but I need to check on one thing first before I post.

bbm:

(1) I don't recall the "vacant building" report (not doubting you, it just hasn't stuck in my mind), but my guess would be it was JUST a guess OR maybe they found a vacant building that had something in it that suggested it MIGHT have been so used...?

(2) I think I know the answer to the question of the identity of the delinquency-of-a-minor guy but I am not absolutely certain, so will let someone who is answer rather than risk causing confusion.

(3) I, too, have wondered about Kathy's father's name and haven't been able to locate it.

(4) Also noticed that Kathy's left eye appears a bit odd in the one photo we have -- and I remember that, in many school photos of that time, persons wearing glasses often were posed at that side-view angle (to lessen glare from the glasses, I guess), so wondering if a photographer might do the same thing if someone had a lazy eye, droopy eyelid, etc. Also meaning absolutely no disrespect to Kathy -- she appears to have been a very pretty girl, from the one photo we have.

(5) I think that, in 1969, most papers would still have been running at least a basic-details free obituary, so for Kathy, at least, I don't understand why there wouldn't be one. Maybe one appeared in a paper/in papers that don't show up online, though -- though maybe you have also searched otherwise. There is a link to Kathy's gravesite on FindAGrave earlier in the thread -- did you see that?

 

[Arnie M]

Too many nagging questions ....

~If Kathy was not assaulted in the empty lot then of course it happened elsewhere
~That means she would have been held captive and restrained somehow
~The strips of her clothing would seem insufficient to restrain her for several days
~Especially since her feet were not bound as far as we know
~So was she locked in a house or a building ?
~I doubt she was carried around alive in a car for several days
~And if she was , why drop her off in such a public place
~Was she restrained by some other means , then bound and gagged with her own clothing just before death ?
~Why drop her off so close to the Rollerdrome and KK ... there were much safer and remote areas just a block or two away (large fields)

~All these issues would be eliminated if everything happened right there in the lot the same night she went missing

~That would mean cold temperatures had preserved the body and investigators simply made a mistake about time of death

~But then again ... if it was a spontaneous assault and rape right there in the lot ... it does not make sense to take the time to cut strips of fabric from her clothing to tie her up .... it would take two hands to do that .... how was she restrained while that was being done .... and what would stop her from screaming out while that was happening .

~somebody else here keeps asking about her shoes .... good question ... if her shoes were not there it could mean she was wearing her skates which makes it look as though she was grabbed in the Roller Rink

~Maybe she was held there for those days and then put in the empty lot afterwards ... but that would require a well hidden soundproof room which seems unlikely at the rink or even unlikely at a nearby home for that matter

Sorry for the ramble folks but a kidnapping and then death a few days later would require a whole bunch of things to make it work .... whereas if it all happened that one night in the lot would seem to make more sense.

I keep thinking the cool evening temperatures preserved the body and the tall weeds blocked the out the daytime sun and maybe that made the investigators get the time of death wrong.

 

[Backwoods]

Too many nagging questions ....

~If Kathy was not assaulted in the empty lot then of course it happened elsewhere
~That means she would have been held captive and restrained somehow
~The strips of her clothing would seem insufficient to restrain her for several days
~Especially since her feet were not bound as far as we know
~So was she locked in a house or a building ?
~I doubt she was carried around alive in a car for several days
~And if she was , why drop her off in such a public place
~Was she restrained by some other means , then bound and gagged with her own clothing just before death ?
~Why drop her off so close to the Rollerdrome and KK ... there were much safer and remote areas just a block or two away (large fields)

~All these issues would be eliminated if everything happened right there in the lot the same night she went missing

~That would mean cold temperatures had preserved the body and investigators simply made a mistake about time of death

~But then again ... if it was a spontaneous assault and rape right there in the lot ... it does not make sense to take the time to cut strips of fabric from her clothing to tie her up .... it would take two hands to do that .... how was she restrained while that was being done .... and what would stop her from screaming out while that was happening .

~somebody else here keeps asking about her shoes .... good question ... if her shoes were not there it could mean she was wearing her skates which makes it look as though she was grabbed in the Roller Rink

~Maybe she was held there for those days and then put in the empty lot afterwards ... but that would require a well hidden soundproof room which seems unlikely at the rink or even unlikely at a nearby home for that matter

Sorry for the ramble folks but a kidnapping and then death a few days later would require a whole bunch of things to make it work .... whereas if it all happened that one night in the lot would seem to make more sense.

I keep thinking the cool evening temperatures preserved the body and the tall weeds blocked the out the daytime sun and maybe that made the investigators get the time of death wrong.

bbm: If the coat lining was thin and/or worn, it might have torn (or cut) pretty easily but, I agree, it would be at least a bit hard for one person to restrain her while ripping/tearing the pieces and then tying her -- surely not impossible, but it would have been a risk of her screaming or making some kind of escape (and oh, I wish she could have made an escape!!!)

Maybe this is one reason the one policeman made the non-official statement that it took at least three people to do this...?

I have wondered, too, if Kathy might have been struck and knocked out early on in the attack, with the bindings and the tying of her blouse around her mouth and neck accomplished while she was unconscious. But then, when she started to rouse, maybe the blouse-gag was not enough to silence her and the perp(s) at that time made use of the portion of her sock? Just a theory.

Or maybe the razor-sharp instrument was being brandished (and used for cutting the lining) and to threaten/torture Kathy as well during the early stage, and she was too terrified to resist much.

 

[nola]

Why do police believe Kathy was "held hostage in a vacant building" before she was killed, vs. the murder's home, car, etc.? In all of the information that we have read, what would make them come to the conclusion she was held in a "vacant building"? Of course we can all speculate but I wondered if they have evidence of this and have just not released it.

"One man questioned was arrested Tuesday on charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor." Does that charge have anything to do with Kathy? The man was questioned about Kathy's murder and then arrested for contributing to the del. of a minor. Three paragraphs above that says 3 persons were questioned but all were released. (Kingsport Times). From previous posts we know that 3 men were "suspects", were questioned, released, and cleared. So.......who is the guy that was questioned and then charged for contributing? And did it have anything to do with Kathy?

Is there a reason that we keep using the initials of J.R.J. instead of using his name? Someone posted his criminal record. I have a list of different addresses that he has lived at and phone numbers. Is it okay to post this? I also have his wife's name.

December, or anyone else, do you know what Kathy's fathers name was? I don't see anywhere that has listed it.

Did Kathy have any sort of problems with her eyes? Please don't take this as me being disrespectful, I just tend to pay attention to detail. In the photo of Kathy, it looks like her right eye is fully open but her left eye is halfway or almost closed. I just wondered if it was the photo or if she may have had some sort of handicap.

"Niece of Kathy Jones" commented that Kathy was buried in Springhill Cemetery. "December", you said she was buried in Westlawn Cemetery. The niece of Kathy also says that her brother, Kelly, is buried beside her. I cannot find an obit for Kathy, Kelly or Nora. I know it's expensive to place obit ads. Could they not have been placed because of the family's financial situation? I've checked the cemetery website for each of the above cemeteries but neither has maps of the deceased. Does anyone know if there is a family plot and at which one?

I have something else to add but I need to check on one thing first before I post.

I, too was searching for Kathy's grave...and finally found her (Nora Kathleen "Kathy" Jones) listed as in Spring Hill Cemetery. No details, but for those of us who may find ourselves in Nashville, it's good to know where to pay our respects.http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=119435994

 

[Backwoods]

I, too was searching for Kathy's grave...and finally found her (Nora Kathleen "Kathy" Jones) listed as in Spring Hill Cemetery. No details, but for those of us who may find ourselves in Nashville, it's good to know where to pay our respects.http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=119435994

Thanks, nola.

Noted from the Info tab at your link (first click on cemetery name under "Burial:" to get to the tab), under Cemetery Notes and Description: "A photo volunteer reports that Spring Hill charges a fee to provide plot location information."

 

[MrsTigglesworth]

Why do police believe Kathy was "held hostage in a vacant building" before she was killed, vs. the murder's home, car, etc.? In all of the information that we have read, what would make them come to the conclusion she was held in a "vacant building"? Of course we can all speculate but I wondered if they have evidence of this and have just not released it.

"One man questioned was arrested Tuesday on charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor." Does that charge have anything to do with Kathy? The man was questioned about Kathy's murder and then arrested for contributing to the del. of a minor. Three paragraphs above that says 3 persons were questioned but all were released. (Kingsport Times). From previous posts we know that 3 men were "suspects", were questioned, released, and cleared. So.......who is the guy that was questioned and then charged for contributing? And did it have anything to do with Kathy?

Is there a reason that we keep using the initials of J.R.J. instead of using his name? Someone posted his criminal record. I have a list of different addresses that he has lived at and phone numbers. Is it okay to post this? I also have his wife's name.

December, or anyone else, do you know what Kathy's fathers name was? I don't see anywhere that has listed it.

Did Kathy have any sort of problems with her eyes? Please don't take this as me being disrespectful, I just tend to pay attention to detail. In the photo of Kathy, it looks like her right eye is fully open but her left eye is halfway or almost closed. I just wondered if it was the photo or if she may have had some sort of handicap.

"Niece of Kathy Jones" commented that Kathy was buried in Springhill Cemetery. "December", you said she was buried in Westlawn Cemetery. The niece of Kathy also says that her brother, Kelly, is buried beside her. I cannot find an obit for Kathy, Kelly or Nora. I know it's expensive to place obit ads. Could they not have been placed because of the family's financial situation? I've checked the cemetery website for each of the above cemeteries but neither has maps of the deceased. Does anyone know if there is a family plot and at which one?

I have something else to add but I need to check on one thing first before I post.

Just jumping off this for a few thoughts...totally my opinion and the idea actually just came to me. On your first point, their speculation that she was held in an abandoned building...what if they were pretty sure of their suspects, and this article was written during initial investigations. Possibly, they checked out their homes and families and speculated that since it was improbable the assaults happened there, and improbable that it all could have taken place in the lot, that a vacant building was their next best guess??? Or maybe they do have key evidence they are holding back as is sometimes the case.

As for JRJ, although Bessie gave me the OK to post his info since he is an offender local to the area at the time and is currently in Jail for a somewhat similar assault, I did not put his full name just because he was not named officially in this case. I found his address on Heather place eerily near where she was found.

I did see a 'possible marriage' for him, but could not confirm since I could find no other mention of her with him... Curious what you have found... He is high on my list!

In regards to the obits, after searching the newspapers of that time, it seems mid paper, there was a list of local deaths with a bit of info about them, then a list of funeral notices. The closest paper I could find archived was from Kingsport, and they didn't even have every day, so no mention that I saw.... But maybe I need to keep going after January?? It was probably a while before they got to bring her home

Moo

 

[bessie]

Too many nagging questions ....

~If Kathy was not assaulted in the empty lot then of course it happened elsewhere
~That means she would have been held captive and restrained somehow
~The strips of her clothing would seem insufficient to restrain her for several days
~Especially since her feet were not bound as far as we know
~So was she locked in a house or a building ?
~I doubt she was carried around alive in a car for several days
~And if she was , why drop her off in such a public place
~Was she restrained by some other means , then bound and gagged with her own clothing just before death ?
~Why drop her off so close to the Rollerdrome and KK ... there were much safer and remote areas just a block or two away (large fields)

~All these issues would be eliminated if everything happened right there in the lot the same night she went missing

~That would mean cold temperatures had preserved the body and investigators simply made a mistake about time of death

~But then again ... if it was a spontaneous assault and rape right there in the lot ... it does not make sense to take the time to cut strips of fabric from her clothing to tie her up .... it would take two hands to do that .... how was she restrained while that was being done .... and what would stop her from screaming out while that was happening .

~somebody else here keeps asking about her shoes .... good question ... if her shoes were not there it could mean she was wearing her skates which makes it look as though she was grabbed in the Roller Rink

~Maybe she was held there for those days and then put in the empty lot afterwards ... but that would require a well hidden soundproof room which seems unlikely at the rink or even unlikely at a nearby home for that matter

Sorry for the ramble folks but a kidnapping and then death a few days later would require a whole bunch of things to make it work .... whereas if it all happened that one night in the lot would seem to make more sense.

I keep thinking the cool evening temperatures preserved the body and the tall weeds blocked the out the daytime sun and maybe that made the investigators get the time of death wrong.

Agreed. Shoes, or lack thereof, is key. You know my thoughts on this matter. I lean heavily toward the lot as site of the rape and murder, and question the recorded TOD. Ihe article Mrs. T posted the other day, the ME said rape occurred at least 24 hours prior to death. So if Monday at noon is correct, then the last sexual attack would have been no later than noon on Sunday, which somewhat negates the "held for days" theory. IMO.

bbm: If the coat lining was thin and/or worn, it might have torn (or cut) pretty easily but, I agree, it would be at least a bit hard for one person to restrain her while ripping/tearing the pieces and then tying her -- surely not impossible, but it would have been a risk of her screaming or making some kind of escape (and oh, I wish she could have made an escape!!!)

Maybe this is one reason the one policeman made the non-official statement that it took at least three people to do this...?

I have wondered, too, if Kathy might have been struck and knocked out early on in the attack, with the bindings and the tying of her blouse around her mouth and neck accomplished while she was unconscious. But then, when she started to rouse, maybe the blouse-gag was not enough to silence her and the perp(s) at that time made use of the portion of her sock? Just a theory.

Or maybe the razor-sharp instrument was being brandished (and used for cutting the lining) and to threaten/torture Kathy as well during the early stage, and she was too terrified to resist much.

I agree that she might have been knocked unconscious near the onset of the attack. That's a fairly common tactic used by killers to disable the victim. I don't know what weapon would have been used to do that if he abducted her walking down the sidewalk, though. Regardless, he likely pushed her to the ground, face down, and straddled her on his knees while holding the knife to her throat, and warning her to stay quiet. With his victim subdued, he then yanked off the jacket (or coat), and slashed at the lining to tie her hands. The blouse was torn off next, and fashioned into a gag. If she was unconscious, he might've taken the time to remove the sock first, but I also tend to think that part was done later. JMO

 

[bessie]

As for JRJ, although Bessie gave me the OK to post his info since he is an offender local to the area at the time and is currently in Jail for a somewhat similar assault, I did not put his full name

Thank you, Mrs. T. At the time, I was under the mistaken impression there was MSM on this guy in relation to KJ. Then it would've been okay to post his name. Since he was not named by LE, and the known arrests were unrelated (afaik), then no, we can't post his name in the thread. I'm also uncomfortable with posting EWA's name, even though he was a well known suspect who at one time was charged with K's murder. Why? Because the charges were dropped. Then in 1998, the lead detective made it very clear he was no longer a suspect. I don't know if he has surviving family members, but in any case, we should use initials or "bus driver" to refer to him.

 

[bessie]

As for JRJ, although Bessie gave me the OK to post his info since he is an offender local to the area at the time and is currently in Jail for a somewhat similar assault, I did not put his full name

Thank you, Mrs. T. At the time, I was under the mistaken impression there was MSM on this guy in relation to KJ. Then it would've been okay to post his name. Since he was not named by LE, and the known arrests were unrelated (afaik), then no, we can't post his name in the thread. I'm also uncomfortable with posting EWA's name, even though he was a well known suspect who at one time was charged with K's murder. Why? Because the charges were dropped. Then in 1998, the lead detective made it very clear he was no longer a suspect. I don't know if he has surviving family members, but in any case, we should use initials or "bus driver" to refer to him.

 

[December]

Kathy is at Spring Hill not Westlawn. WE have grave lots at Westlawn which is where that confusion came in.. for some reason, I thought she was buried at the same place our grave lots are located. But, she is not.

Kathy, Kelly, Nora, Linda, Faye, Brenda (Faye's baby daughter), and (I think) Faye's adult daughter Donna are all at Spring Hill. (I'm not sure about Donna, but I feel strongly she'd be buried near her mom?)

Donna worked at the cemetery. Westlawn and Spring Hill are now connected in some way. I called Donna (not knowing I'd get Donna, surprise!.. this is a few years ago when she was living) to talk about our Westlawn plots and we started talking about everyone named above buried at Spring Hill. This is why I got it mixed up because.. well, who wouldn't?

I have been to the cemetery and I have seen Kathy's grave. She has a small, cute headstone appropriate for her age. But, honestly, I was crying and stuff because of Linda so I guess I didn't half notice where I was.

 

[December]

Investigator CM is Charles Mills.. he is named in other articles. I guess he wasn't named then because the crime had just happened at that point. He was a senior investigator.

 

[December]

In the 2009 article, Pat Posilgione emails them about the case. It is pretty obvious from what he says that he and Micky Miller had looked through Kathy's file between 1998 and 2009. Pat Postilgione is kind of a big deal with cold cases and Micky Miller is the head of homicide. So, anyway, they had investigated AFTER 1998.

From what I understand, the police do pull out the cold cases and go through them as much as they can. They didn't let Kathy's sit for ten years. They looked at it.

Also, Pat Postilgione was known to go through files from the beginning for time to time just to make sure nothing was missed. (I am speaking of him in past tense because he has retired.)

 

[December]

I have been thinking of knives before. Apparently any knife of good quality can be made "razor sharp" although someone i asked told me they thought the paper might just be creating some drama using those words. But, let's say there is good reason to think "razor sharp"... I have been thinking of knives.

Switchblades might be something a murderer would have. Also, I included a stilleto due to the puncture wound.

And a bayonet to knife conversion. This is a Czech bayonet which I think would be an unlikely thing to find. I just chose it because I found a good comparison photo. But, there are bayonets that would be more common to the area that have been converted to knives that look kind of like this.. so it is more to give an idea.

 

[December]

I don't know for sure Kathy's father's name. But, Kelly's first name is William. So, maybe that is a clue?

JRJ was identified because I said Russell instead of Darrell in a post. This does not prove his innocence. But, we were looking for a relative of Kathy's (not my relative, btw) and HIS name is Darrell not Russell. But, I just typed Russell again by mistake. Hmm. for some reason I KEEP making that error. Maybe that guy JRJ is a very, very good suspect!

Anyway, MrsTigglesworth tried to find a link between JRJ and Kathy's family and she could not. But, if you think about WHY she would be doing that you will have his last name. ETA a family link, I mean.

 

[December]

Also, I think switchblades were once sold in stores for a cheap price. And then people around here trade knives with one another. So, after a point if enough people bought the knives then they would be traded for years after they were sold.. or acquired or brought back from the war or whatever else. Obviously, if someone was trading a really good knife then you better put up something of equal value. But, if someone was trading a knife that was originally cheap (but still had a decent blade) then you could trade them something cheap.

I say all of this because many people were hauled in by police and some got arrested. It doesn't seem like any knives were found on the people. Therefore the murderer didn't carry a knife all of the time or he ditched it as soon as he saw the cops headed his way.

I don't KNOW no one had a knife, but if anyone had and the papers got wind of it...

A lot of men had pocket knives though.. hm... maybe this is where razor sharp came in.. maybe they did find some knives on arrestees but decided those knives were too dull to be of concern.

ETA
SPECULATION

 

[December]

The articles states that homicide investigator CM said:

Now we know the source of that theory. Nice to have an answer because it's been bugging me. Next question: what is the basis for it?

I am going to let the investigator know that Charles Mills (he is even interviewed by the scene, so it's known he was a detective on the case) said this to the newspaper. Of course, Mr. Mills has very likely died by now because he retired in the late 70s. But, that will let him know whose notes to look through. And if Mr. Mills is still alive, perhaps he would be happy to answer any questions the current investigators might have since he actually saw the crime scene with his own eyes.