TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

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bessie said:
A dark b&w photo accompanies the article. I'll try to scan it later, but it's so dark, I don't think scanning will work well. General description:

The photo is taken from a viewpoint about 6 feet from K's body. Between the photographer and the body is a narrow path of pressed down weeds and grass. At the end of the pathway is K's body lying horizontally, and covered by what appears to be a white sheet. On either side of the pathway and behind K are tall weeds, at least three feet high. Strewn about in front of the sheet are light colored objects that look like pieces of paper, perhaps something used by the investigators. It's very hard to distinguish.
Click to expand...

maybe those are her cards?

it sounds like LE made a path to her body and tried to stick to that path instead of tromping all over which is good.
 
Backwoods said:
RE: "her little playing cards" -- could definitely mean a small-scaled deck, but then -- December, you are from the South, I think, so maybe you will know what I'm saying here -- in my mind, I can hear folks (I'm thinking my grandmother or my mom, specifically) using "little" to refer to any possession of a child or other vulnerable person, ESPECIALLY one who is being treated badly, hurt, misjudged, etc. For example, in Kathy's case, maybe: "That monster just ripped the lining of her little coat!" etc. Not meaning so much, I think, that the coat is small (though it probably was, relatively) but that it belonged to a vulnerable person who was treated badly...

But it does make sense that, if she had the opportunity, Kathy would have liked owning a compact, cute little deck of cards, just as I did. (I think I bought them with my allowance.)
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Yes, and that is what I thought at first. that they were just 'little' because they belonged to a little girl.

so, i was thinking if it was a run of the mill deck, then how could nora even know for sure those were kathy's (unless there was only one deck in the house and it was gone). this is why i started thinking... what if they were never kathy's?

but, now that you have told me of the cute cards and the mini decks... this seems to fit better. there was something about the cards that was little girl-like to the man who was describing them. so, now i think it would be easy for nora to be sure those did belong to kathy.
 
nola said:
Sorry, if my link is on the blink -- I can still see the photo, but here the shot is again (XX fingers crossed that it will work).
images

And the link is the same blog that Bessie shared, just a different entry and photo. <Incidentally, I really like this blog> http://www.southnashvillelife.com/2010/03/nashvilles-history-in-pictures.html
Click to expand...

i just found this photo today as well. but i hadn't posted it yet because... ugh, my phone. so i am glad you posted it.
 
Backwoods said:
Just wanting to speculate -- maybe a funeral home was not an unusual place to carry out some post-homicide investigation at that time?

I know that on one of the Nashville-of-the-past web sites, I was reading how, at a time not all THAT long ago, ambulance service was provided by hearses from funeral homes.

I could relate -- was the same in my home county for many years (unless you waited for some kind of transport from Macon). I remember my dad had a bad asthma attack at work and was transported by hearse to the hospital! That can't have felt too encouraging!

So maybe there was more "overlap" of roles and "official sites" to carry certain things out -- between medical/LE/funeral home personnel and sites, back then.
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i think so...

also, as long as an official presence is there, it seems as good a place as any. maybe they just used the morgue downtown for people who were unclaimed or unidentified?
 
nola said:
Bessie, I thanked you for your posting with the additional details from the banner -- but that didn't seem like enough. This really pulls together so many of the crime scene specifics that we all were questioning. Thank you for going the extra mile to make that available. :yourock:

With all the conversation about playing cards, I will say that my son (11) carries cards in his backpack just in case he can get a game of 'something' in on the bus ride home from school. Honestly, I think he and his buds just make up games to pass the time. When bored, he will even play solitaire. Maybe this was the same for Kathy. When I saw Bessie's comment about the photo with little slips of paper lying around I immediately thought, ah...her playing cards.
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You're welcome!

To clarify, the objects on the ground appear too large to be playing cards. They're rectangular, but larger, closer in size to something like sheets of letter size paper. By the time the photo was taken, I'm pretty sure the evidence had been collected.
 
bessie said:
I *think* nola's photo is the one at this link, a Gulf station where White Castle is presently located. I saw it awhile back while searching the site. It's on the opposite side of Thompson from the KK. The picture shows how the buildings were clustered close to each other, and close to the street. Typical for the era.

http://www.southnashvillelife.com/2011/08/vintage-south-nashville-just-right-in.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for the picture bessie .... in the past few days I have come across hundreds of 1960 - 1970 historical pictures but most of them are from closer to downtown and not the Thompson lane area

It is also easy to find pics of the Hippodrome roller rink but only an occasional mention about the rink on Thompson Lane

The search continues.

Still working on the DeBardeleben angle (mostly trying to eliminate him ) .... turns out in some of the SS video tapes they (SS) changed the names of some of the ex wives and victims ,,, so that explains some of the discrepancies .... I think Backwoods had noticed that as well (thanks)

I also have found the SS (Secret Service) were more interested in boasting and telling everybody ... "how great they are" .... rather than work at finding all the DeBardeleleben victims .... wish we could have access to the files .... apparently DeBardeleleben had an obsession with writing and keeping notes on everything and receipts for everything .... those boxes of files are probably collecting dust somewhere under the boasting room of the SS offices ... :)

I have a busy week coming up but will keep digging :)
 
December said:
The daughters were not with him. He had dropped them off and was on his way home when he saw Kathy walking. this is why she didn't accept the ride, she didn't recognize him without his daughters.

i thought we weren't even sure hd had a bus? but, i have seen a reference where they specifically did say the rd bus picked them up and dropped them off. but, i can't link it up since there are a bunch of people's personal emails etc all over it. however, it is still one person's memory. i did quote it earlier in the thread somewhere... i think. but, this is where i read it.

you carried these cards in your purse? this is what i am wondering about. not just owning cards, but having them inside a purse and carrying them around. i mean, i guess she probably did. but, i didn't know would this be a thing to carry always or a thing to carry only ifyou had plans to use them.
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Both skating rinks used a bus to pick up kids. FB posts mentioned that one ran at night, and went to different parts of the city. It was a little unclear whether posters were talking about the HD bus or the AWRD. Thanks to Searchin's explanation of the street names (West End/Harding), it's clear now that the post about a night bus refers to the HD.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2226556916/permalink/10152297941871917/

Post from Dec 30, 2011 talks about AWRD bus picking kids up on Saturday mornings.

http://books.dreambook.com/chicur/memories.html

FB posts about the HD. Poster RM mentions the AWRD also had a bus that picked up on Saturday mornings.

https://www.facebook.com/thenashvilleiwishiknew/posts/542221469175466

Regarding cards, I don't remember carrying them, myself. My younger sister and one friend in particular, definitely did.
December said:
They did.

They had a tendency to jump to conclusions.

Most people in Nashville had already read The Tennessean which was the morning paper. So, the Banner comes along in the afternoon and does their own take on the same story. But, their take was more... sensationalistic maybe?

If they actually interview a named person and have a direct quote MAYBE you can trust that.

But, if they're the only ones saying something then they probably more or less made it up.

If we had The Tennessean that ran in the morning, then that is where a lot of their facts (that turn out to be right) are from.. they just took them from there.

The doctor they name was probably a doctor who did those things sometimes and they jumped to the conclusion he would. Of course, this does make me wonder, did certain people in Nashville rate an autopsy while others didn't? Or was the Banner talking out of their hat again?

In the Banner's defense, I will say there to this day is a lot of confusion on facts in this case. So, they MIGHT have believed they had accurate information not realizing no one had accurate information (this is going by one source and not doublechecking, usually).

The information about the search is interesting. But, bad news... there is some controversy about that. I'm not sure what exactly. And I'm not sure it affects anything they printed, but I'm just saying... it's a weird and confusing case.

It is unknown whether or not she got to the Rollerdrome. But, perhaps at one point, they thought she had not.. so why would they change their mind? Or did the Banner just ask the cop who gave them the quote and just gambled that the answer they got from him would be the right answer?

'at least three people involved'... well, hey, I agree with them on that. I think, based on brutality and logistics, it's a multi perp crime. But, that may just be me, unnamed cop, and the crazy Banner. Officially, as far as I know, that's not how it's being looked at...

Her father lived in Clarksville... well, maybe he did. I am very confused about that. someone's husband died during an operation and I really thought it was Nora's and since he wasn't mentioned in any of these articles... Or maybe he died after Kathy? This is a person I don't know, so I'm sorry.. no idea about him.

I really never knew much about the search, btw. so that is interesting. there may be some problems with it, but it is probably more or less right.
Click to expand...
The Banner interviewed people at the scene and K's mom. I find the article to be very thorough and straight forward, and not at all sensationalistic, and believe me, I read news stories with a very critical eye. The Banner also is the source of the photo.

BTW, the Banner article was published as an extra on the same day K's body was found. The Tennessean would have followed the next morning.
 
I apologize for not getting some of the photos I was going to get and other info for December. I've been quite ill the past couple of weeks and am just now feeling better. I haven't been in Websleuths at all...Hopefully I can get that done next week.
 
bessie said:
The comment is here. Of course, it is considered "rumor", not fact. However, the post doesn't indicate the other girls had already been dropped off. When read in context, it's obvious the poster mistakenly typed "taken" instead of "taking".

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/nashville-tn/TAPAQ4326OV40R0OL
Click to expand...

she might have meant to type had instead of was. so, had taken instead of was taking. if she is on a phone especially... my phone does some insane stuff. I saw someone's phone today change something about them eating their hat to them eating their kin (on a different site). thankfully, they explained because that initially sounded pretty extreme to me.

to me, it does not sound like the girls were in the car with.
i did have one thing confused... one of these girls was her best friend.

if the girls were in the car, why wouldn't Kathy go? (o.k., i know there is no answer for that, but if it is her best friend...) and why wouldn't the girls be an official sighting of her? they would at least definitely have been looking for her after they arrived (for her to arrive later). so maybe the police would know for certain if she got to RD or not.

for these reasons, iI think the person means that the man had already dropped off his daughters. but, it is possible none of this even happened since the person telling the story wasn't born yet.

it is possible that they didn't see Kathy at all that night and wished they had known she was going because she could've just gone with them. and somehow in retelling, it got confused to the grandfather offering her a ride.
 
bessie said:
The comment is here. Of course, it is considered "rumor", not fact. However, the post doesn't indicate the other girls had already been dropped off. When read in context, it's obvious the poster mistakenly typed "taken" instead of "taking".

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/nashville-tn/TAPAQ4326OV40R0OL
Click to expand...

OK, now I see -- I was combining that commenter's "grandfather" and the "father" of another commenter (the cab driver) in my mind -- so, as far as we know anyhow, the person who was taking two other girls skating and offered Kathy a ride was not questioned as a POI. (Well, he could have been, but if so the comment doesn't indicate it.) Sorry for any confusion I caused!

And yeah, comments taken as "rumor", anyhow.
 
norest4thewicked said:
I apologize for not getting some of the photos I was going to get and other info for December. I've been quite ill the past couple of weeks and am just now feeling better. I haven't been in Websleuths at all...Hopefully I can get that done next week.
Click to expand...

I hope you are feeling better. your health is important. I appreciate you doing those things.
i
 
December said:
she might have meant to type had instead of was. so, had taken instead of was taking. if she is on a phone especially... my phone does some insane stuff. I saw someone's phone today change something about them eating their hat to them eating their kin (on a different site). thankfully, they explained because that initially sounded pretty extreme to me.

to me, it does not sound like the girls were in the car with.
i did have one thing confused... one of these girls was her best friend.

if the girls were in the car, why wouldn't Kathy go? (o.k., i know there is no answer for that, but if it is her best friend...) and why wouldn't the girls be an official sighting of her? they would at least definitely have been looking for her after they arrived (for her to arrive later). so maybe the police would know for certain if she got to RD or not.

for these reasons, iI think the person means that the man had already dropped off his daughters. but, it is possible none of this even happened since the person telling the story wasn't born yet.

it is possible that they didn't see Kathy at all that night and wished they had known she was going because she could've just gone with them. and somehow in retelling, it got confused to the grandfather offering her a ride.
Click to expand...

If you read a little on in the comment, poster says something like "Oh I wish she had gone with them" -- I took that to mean they WERE with the grandfather when he offered Kathy the ride, upon first reading that part.

But now, considering your comments, I find it all kind of ambiguous. One thing -- we have to remember that this is a "family story" being repeated by the child/grandchild of those who were in that time, so there is a chance it is being presented a bit differently than it happened (not necessarily on purpose, just the way things get warped a little through years and tellings and interpretations).

FWIW, think that commenter says her aunt was "a good friend" of Kathy's. It's the cab driver's daughter (different commenter) that says her sister and Kathy were "best friends".
 
bessie said:
You're welcome!

To clarify, the objects on the ground appear too large to be playing cards. They're rectangular, but larger, closer in size to something like sheets of letter size paper. By the time the photo was taken, I'm pretty sure the evidence had been collected.
Click to expand...

that's weird... and there are a lot of them?

if there are maybe 10, i would say evidence lists and various types of info like measurements so it'd show in photos.

but if it is a lot like 50 then i can't imagine what it is
 
Backwoods said:
If you read a little on in the comment, poster says something like "Oh I wish she had gone with them" -- I took that to mean they WERE with the grandfather when he offered Kathy the ride, upon first reading that part.

But now, considering your comments, I find it all kind of ambiguous. One thing -- we have to remember that this is a "family story" being repeated by the child/grandchild of those who were in that time, so there is a chance it is being presented a bit differently than it happened (not necessarily on purpose, just the way things get warped a little through years and tellings and interpretations).

FWIW, think that commenter says her aunt was "a good friend" of Kathy's. It's the cab driver's daughter (different commenter) that says her sister and Kathy were "best friends".
Click to expand...

I just read it... I think she made the comment on more than one place because where I read it says best friend. but I remembered good friend before, too.

and i know the cab driver's daughter whose sister was the best friend also commented on two places.

there is no telling.

if this man actually spoke to Kathy that night (with or without daughters) then he would have talked to the police. this is someone from her neighborhood. whose daughters were her age and who love to skate.

if he's not in witness statements, then it is just a story that has gotten confused by the younger person. it is easy to do that.

i swear if iI only knew at the time i would have gotten Daddy to write down every scrap of memory he had about all of this and every person involved and any other random thing no matter how minor. then he would have to go over it 1,0000 times and add details. then he'd have to go through these newspapers with me and correct all of them. then we'd get all of it officially sworn in front of a judge, a notary, our preacher, the preacher from all of the churches in town, a few priests, some rabbis, and the mayor. because you never know.
 
bessie said:
Both skating rinks used a bus to pick up kids. FB posts mentioned that one ran at night, and went to different parts of the city. It was a little unclear whether posters were talking about the HD bus or the AWRD. Thanks to Searchin's explanation of the street names (West End/Harding), it's clear now that the post about a night bus refers to the HD.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2226556916/permalink/10152297941871917/

Post from Dec 30, 2011 talks about AWRD bus picking kids up on Saturday mornings.

http://books.dreambook.com/chicur/memories.html

FB posts about the HD. Poster RM mentions the AWRD also had a bus that picked up on Saturday mornings.

https://www.facebook.com/thenashvilleiwishiknew/posts/542221469175466

Regarding cards, I don't remember carrying them, myself. My younger sister and one friend in particular, definitely did.

The Banner interviewed people at the scene and K's mom. I find the article to be very thorough and straight forward, and not at all sensationalistic, and believe me, I read news stories with a very critical eye. The Banner also is the source of the photo.

BTW, the Banner article was published as an extra on the same day K's body was found. The Tennessean would have followed the next morning.
Click to expand...

I used to read them both every day, so yes... The Tennessean was a morning paper and The Banner was an afternoon paper. I read them both every day for years. The Banner was good for some specific types of stories (not crime) and it seems like they did get a lot of interviews.

But, yes, they did lead on this one due to the timing. Sorry, that was me being an idiot.

I appreciate you getting the article. That is very helpful.

And I have always said the Banner did use a very nice photo of Kathy and I am grateful to them for that. I don't have any pictures of her. I don't have very many pictures of anyone. iI feel someone does have a good photo of Kathy (at least one that has not been printed into a newspaper then scanned onto the internet), but i'mI'm not sure who that'd be.

iI will have to search again for that page iI found about the bus. it isn't any of these. iI will examine it closely andand try to figure out if there is any way to possibly use it. it has some more info... not much, but it makes clear that they mean the rollerdrome bus drops off at night (it is not the west harding woman, it is someone else on a different site). of course 'night' can mean a lot of things, but ...
 
Arnie M said:
Thanks for the picture bessie .... in the past few days I have come across hundreds of 1960 - 1970 historical pictures but most of them are from closer to downtown and not the Thompson lane area

It is also easy to find pics of the Hippodrome roller rink but only an occasional mention about the rink on Thompson Lane

The search continues.

Still working on the DeBardeleben angle (mostly trying to eliminate him ) .... turns out in some of the SS video tapes they (SS) changed the names of some of the ex wives and victims ,,, so that explains some of the discrepancies .... I think Backwoods had noticed that as well (thanks)

I also have found the SS (Secret Service) were more interested in boasting and telling everybody ... "how great they are" .... rather than work at finding all the DeBardeleleben victims .... wish we could have access to the files .... apparently DeBardeleleben had an obsession with writing and keeping notes on everything and receipts for everything .... those boxes of files are probably collecting dust somewhere under the boasting room of the SS offices ... :)

I have a busy week coming up but will keep digging :)
Click to expand...

thank you for your hard work

i hate it when certain people get too caught up in the glory aspect for themselves and forget the victims. the victims are important.

besides, with this individual, they will be solving cold cases right and left... that seems like it'd let them boast even more?
 
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