TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[December]

I read your post and my heart hurts for you -- crying for your pain. I pray that this crime's haunting of your soul will end and that you (and Kathy) will get justice. So sorry that you and your family have had to endure the evil of this world.

thank you...

i needed that.

it hurts so much. i want to be strong for her.

thank you.

 

[bessie]

We often hear of the tall weeds in the lot but this newspaper article says "heavily wooded" as well

Quote ... she (Kathy) was lying face down in the heavily wooded field at 2806 Grandview Ave . [behind Krispy Kreme doughnuts]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969

I know, Arnie, and I've wondered if that meant trees and shrubs were growing there, too.

 

[December]

We often hear of the tall weeds in the lot but this newspaper article says "heavily wooded" as well

Quote ... she (Kathy) was lying face down in the heavily wooded field at 2806 Grandview Ave . [behind Krispy Kreme doughnuts]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969

there are trees on the lot now, so maybe there were some then.

maybe they outright pitched a tent in the lot? or something?

thank you for the link as i have never heard 'heavily wooded' i guess i missed that.

the lot is much more demure now than it was then.

i thought maybe she walked through the lot before i got a look at it... no way. (i mean willingly walking on her own to go to kk or whereever)

 

[nola]

Okay, what if the perps were a car full of teenagers (maybe high or drunk) driving around looking for someone to rob. They see a little girl, purse in hand and think she's the perfect target. They stop their car, grab her with the intent of scoring some cash only to discover that she has $1 and a token for skating. This angers them -- the crime then escalates to a beating and a gang rape. They dump her back where they found her after a long night of "what to do, now" discussions. Maybe this is why crime scene DNA (mentioned, but not confirmed) recovered on Kathy hasn't matched a known sexual predator -- these perps were previously only petty thieves, drug users, but not rapist and murderers. So their DNA has never been collected and entered into CODIS.

Maybe a review of petty gang crimes like muggings of pedestrians would allow the scum to float to the top?

 

[nerosleuth]

According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found.

If and when the LEO with the files today tell us something different Its my speculation only, that the crime was committed where she was found.

Being autumn the ground was HARD.

After ripping the liner from her coat to bind her hands behind her back her rolled her over and used her coat as a cushion not to scratch his knees from the hard ground.

I don't believe that the crime was committed where the victim was found. I believe the crime was committed at another location.

If the crime was committed in the field, the victim would have been deceased longer than 24 hours.

There likely would have been dirt or grass stains, (maybe even mud if the ground had been wet) that would have been found on the victim's body, clothing, and coat.

And there could have been weeds or plants in the field that had thorns on them. The thorns possibly could have made a scrape marks on the victim's or attacker's skin.

I do wonder if any shoe prints or tire tracks were found anywhere near the body.

 

[December]

All stated is just my humble opinion...
Reviewing all the news articles it seems to me that what we have is a change of investigator's initial 'take' on this crime once the coroner stated that the TOD was around noon on Monday. 'Everything' changes once "apparently" Kathy was held captive for 36 hours before dying at noon on Monday, and then (after death) left in the empty lot.
But If the coroner (Dr. Petrone) is incorrect (as he was in Marcia Trimble's case by 15+ days; and even by admission in Lillian Hick's case, that his estimate of TOD could be off as much as 4 hours) then once again, it is possible that Kathy died within hours of the attack - and perhaps the detective's first instincts are closer to what happened.
We know that the severe bruising means that she lived for a while after the brutal rape - enough time for her body to show the effects. But that could just mean hours, not days. So if the TOD is wrong and she died (let's say) early on Sunday morning then the crime could have happened in the lot or very close by (in killer's vehicle).
Multiple perps could have been involved, grabbing Kathy as he walked along with her skates that night, driving to an isolated spot near by (maybe even behind a business along the alley) where the beating and gang type rape(s) occurred. Once done, they could have pulled up to the empty lot, gathered her belongings and left her in the tall grass.
Since we also know that if Kathy had been in the lot, her body would not have been seen from the street or the alley - the tall weeds were obviously pretty dense (per Bessie shared photo). I believe that any earlier search of that lot prior to Tuesday would have disturbed the weeds and would have factored into the detectives first impression of the crime scene. Surely, this question would have been asked by reporters, as well. Just as the numerous previous searches of the garage were reported in the Trimble case.

I have to say, that it so pains me that Kathy's body was not autopsied. :banghead: However, Dr. P was a medical doctor, so surely his coroner's report holds something that can eventually tie a suspect to her murder. lease:


Mrs Lillian Hick's article. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19720903&id=0QwrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tJoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2939,1497847

i do think sunday is possible.

i also have the weird feeling (this could be wrong), but maybe they had her one place but then moved her.

the only reason for this would be the place they had her either they needed (a vehicle) or would lead to them being caught redhanded (a nearby house they'd borrowed). but, i think if this is the case, they always knew they would move her. but this would account for lack of wildlife intervention. this would also account for them keeping her things together. which is all weird, i know. i don't know if this took place, but speculation.

they keep saying they have some sort of DNA. not recover as dna at the time, of course.

also, if he examined her then he should have a detailed list of her injuries. and whether they were inflicted over a period of time or what. he should have that, at least. this may help match the pattern to whatever kind of vile individual could do such a horrendous thing to an innocent young girl (or anyone for that matter).

 

[December]

I don't believe that the crime was committed where the victim was found. I believe the crime was committed at another location.

If the crime was committed in the field, the victim would have been deceased longer than 24 hours.

There likely would have been dirt or grass stains, (maybe even mud if the ground had been wet) that would have been found on the victim's body, clothing, and coat.

And there could have been weeds or plants in the field that had thorns on them. The thorns possibly could have made a scrape marks on the victim's or attacker's skin.

I do wonder if any shoe prints or tire tracks were found anywhere near the body.

i wonder about those tracks as well.

the dense weeds would work against getting shoe prints, but you never know.. they may have gotten something.

as far as the weeds against the attacker's skin.. i was thinking the same thing. he wouldn't want to be uncomfortable.

 

[December]

Okay, what if the perps were a car full of teenagers (maybe high or drunk) driving around looking for someone to rob. They see a little girl, purse in hand and think she's the perfect target. They stop their car, grab her with the intent of scoring some cash only to discover that she has $1 and a token for skating. This angers them -- the crime then escalates to a beating and a gang rape. They dump her back where they found her after a long night of "what to do, now" discussions. Maybe this is why crime scene DNA (mentioned, but not confirmed) recovered on Kathy hasn't matched a known sexual predator -- these perps were previously only petty thieves, drug users, but not rapist and murderers. So their DNA has never been collected and entered into CODIS.

Maybe a review of petty gang crimes like muggings of pedestrians would allow the scum to float to the top?

this is possible.

there were some weird things going on in 1969 (i guess weird things always go on, but still). if these individuals have a van... then they have a perfect place to carry out the crime.

word would quickly get around to the local pedos. thus, adcox knew about it.

 

[December]

I noticed the banner called her outerwear a jacket while other publications have called it a coat.

there are some people who consider anything that is not a full length coat a jacket.

iI think it is possible she was wearing a car coat or something. I will find an example of what I mean.

if some individual slithered up behind her in the dark, he'd mostly see the coat and the fact she had a purse. maybe he did think she was older than she was... at first, from the back.

this makes me think that yes, rapists who usually pick grown women ought to be considered. because from the back in the dark.. she might have looked a little older.

 

[nerosleuth]

Thank you for the link to the map.

Using street view as her eyes and coming from her street she made a left than a quick right on woodbine st to grand-view dr av with intention of heading down towards the kk and the ring.

She didn't mind walking by her self after dark, but she didn't like to have cars coming behind her or in front of her not knowing whom was driving or if something may happen, so she avoided it when she was able.

Using the street view map that was posted a few days ago, I see two possible routes here.

The first one that MrTT pointed out is Kathy walking on Woodbine and then Grandview to reach her destination.

The second one is the alley between Grandview and Nolensville that ran from Thompson to Woodbine that another person suggested a few days ago.

The question here is did Grandview or the alley have any street lights back then?

If the alley didn’t have street lights, I don’t know if Kathy would have been comfortable walking on a dark alley at night.

What about Grandview and Lutie? Did those streets have street lights and sidewalks back then?

I can understand Kathy wanting to take Grandview if it was a well lit street at night and didn’t like the traffic on Nolensville.

About the area around the Nolensville-Thompson intersection, were there any nearby fast food or pizza joints back then where teens would have went to on a weekend night?

This thought just came to me. Was there any drive in theaters still open around that time of the year in the Nashville area? I’m thinking of a drive in theater that is set back from the roadway and closed for the season.

 

[December]

http://www.briki.com/briki/Tennesse...01_GRASSMERE_PARK_RD_NASHVILLE,_TN_37211.html

grassmere (zoo) again. mostly wooded in 1969.

there were stables.. iI will try to find a photo

 

[bessie]

i do think sunday is possible.

i also have the weird feeling (this could be wrong), but maybe they had her one place but then moved her.

the only reason for this would be the place they had her either they needed (a vehicle) or would lead to them being caught redhanded (a nearby house they'd borrowed). but, i think if this is the case, they always knew they would move her. but this would account for lack of wildlife intervention. this would also account for them keeping her things together. which is all weird, i know. i don't know if this took place, but speculation.

they keep saying they have some sort of DNA. not recover as dna at the time, of course.

also, if he examined her then he should have a detailed list of her injuries. and whether they were inflicted over a period of time or what. he should have that, at least. this may help match the pattern to whatever kind of vile individual could do such a horrendous thing to an innocent young girl (or anyone for that matter).

Like the creature who killed poor Glenda Sirmans on the very same day and not so far from Nashville. Her murder received even less coverage than Kathy's. And Wanda June Anderson, raped and beaten to death with a pipe just a few years earlier. Reba Kay Green, stabbed in her bed while lying next to her twin sister. So many. Too many.

TN TN - Glenda Marie Sirmans, 13, Farragut, 29 November 1969 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


http://www.wsmv.com/story/19024068/cold-case-detectives-seek-publics-help-in-grisly-killings

 

[December]

nerosleuth, there were drive ins during this time period. I will try to figure out where. but I believe one was near 100 oaks (within a mile?).

there were some restaurants, but i am not sure if there was any fast food.

there was a hot dog stand closer to 100 oaks and some said teens liked to hang around it
sorry... my phone..allmof a sudden

 

[nola]

Using the street view map that was posted a few days ago, I see two possible routes here.

The first one that MrTT pointed out is Kathy walking on Woodbine and then Grandview to reach her destination.

The second one is the alley between Grandview and Nolensville that ran from Thompson to Woodbine that another person suggested a few days ago.

The question here is did Grandview or the alley have any street lights back then?

If the alley didn’t have street lights, I don’t know if Kathy would have been comfortable walking on a dark alley at night.

What about Grandview and Lutie? Did those streets have street lights and sidewalks back then?

I can understand Kathy wanting to take Grandview if it was a well lit street at night and didn’t like the traffic on Nolensville.

About the area around the Nolensville-Thompson intersection, were there any nearby fast food or pizza joints back then where teens would have went to on a weekend night?

This thought just came to me. Was there any drive in theaters still open around that time of the year in the Nashville area? I’m thinking of a drive in theater that is set back from the roadway and closed for the season.

Good points...not sure when street lights were added to Grandview Avenue, but you can see (photo & link attached) that both 2806 & 2804 Grandview (empty lots behind KK) now have lights surrounding property.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=nolensville+pike+map&ie=UTF-8&ei=WexiUqHEEIHh2AXU5oGoDg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

 

[nola]

I find myself obsessed with finding photos of this Nashville area from the 1960s! Anybody else?

A photograph of a billboard supporting Metropolitan Government, circa 1968. The sign stood at the corner of Thompson Lane and Nolensville Road and read: "Metro...growing today to meet tomorrow's needs."

http://digital.library.nashville.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/nr/id/1613/rec/1

...on a personal note, my daddy was the distributor for Royal Crown Cola in southern Mississippi in 1968 (when this photo was taken). From time to time I will come across a RCC sign (once it was an actual RC Cola can lodged in a strange place) that makes me think that my dad is sending me a message from Heaven. He loved mysteries and puzzles, so this would so be like him....trying to zoom in to see if I can determine if this photo faces where the RollerDrome would have been...hmmmm.

This is a photo of the same corner looking out on to Thompson Lane from the Gulf station taken in 1963.

http://www.southnashvillelife.com/2011/08/vintage-south-nashville-just-right-in.html

 

[Searchin']

I know, Arnie, and I've wondered if that meant trees and shrubs were growing there, too.

I drove down the alley again today and noticed the lot is fenced on three sides leaving the KK side open. So I parked in KK's parking lot and walked around. I did notice several large trees on the right side of the lot (looking from the alley). I was amazed how soft the ground was (I know that was mentioned earlier). I don't think it would take much to leave a print or tire tracks. Of course this is a month earlier than the crime.

Oh....thank you Bessie for explaining how to post a photo. I will try that soon.

 

[nola]

Searchin',
What's behind the Title & Cash Advance building? Is that also empty lots or a parking lot?
Thanks for your eyes on the ground -- can't wait to see your photos.

 

[Searchin']

I find myself obsessed with finding photos of this Nashville area from the 1960s! Anybody else?

A photograph of a billboard supporting Metropolitan Government, circa 1968. The sign stood at the corner of Thompson Lane and Nolensville Road and read: "Metro...growing today to meet tomorrow's needs."

http://digital.library.nashville.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/nr/id/1613/rec/1

...on a personal note, my daddy was the distributor for Royal Crown Cola in southern Mississippi in 1968 (when this photo was taken). From time to time I will come across a RCC sign (once it was an actual RC Cola can lodged in a strange place) that makes me think that my dad is sending me a message from Heaven. He loved mysteries and puzzles, so this would so be like him....trying to zoom in to see if I can determine if this photo faces where the RollerDrome would have been...hmmmm.

This is a photo of the same corner looking out on to Thompson Lane from the Gulf station taken in 1963.

http://www.southnashvillelife.com/2011/08/vintage-south-nashville-just-right-in.html

Nola, I understand your obsession about looking for photos. I find myself staying up to all hours as I discover new websites. I usually have to bookmark them and continue the next day.

With a copy of the Gulf station photo in hand, I parked in Eckerd's lot which is about the location where the photographer stood. It's looking south down Nolensville Rd (White Castle is now across Thompson Lane from the Gulf station/Eckerd). The building in the background with the Kroger sign is still there....it's just another business.
Since I don't know how long WC has been there, that may have originally been the location of Charlie's Tavern.

 

[Backwoods]

I find myself obsessed with finding photos of this Nashville area from the 1960s! Anybody else?

A photograph of a billboard supporting Metropolitan Government, circa 1968. The sign stood at the corner of Thompson Lane and Nolensville Road and read: "Metro...growing today to meet tomorrow's needs."

http://digital.library.nashville.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/nr/id/1613/rec/1

...on a personal note, my daddy was the distributor for Royal Crown Cola in southern Mississippi in 1968 (when this photo was taken). From time to time I will come across a RCC sign (once it was an actual RC Cola can lodged in a strange place) that makes me think that my dad is sending me a message from Heaven. He loved mysteries and puzzles, so this would so be like him....trying to zoom in to see if I can determine if this photo faces where the RollerDrome would have been...hmmmm.

This is a photo of the same corner looking out on to Thompson Lane from the Gulf station taken in 1963.

http://www.southnashvillelife.com/2011/08/vintage-south-nashville-just-right-in.html

Yep -- I just keep hoping to catch a glimpse of the 1969 Krispy Kreme or the AWRD!! Don't know that it would help, but it's like a quest...

I look at the vehicles and people in these old pictures and think...was that truck involved? Did that guy know something?

nola, while you are hunting up pics of the area from that time, here's something I found the other night that MIGHT help, I don't know. This site includes some older-style KK signs from around the country (as well as newer ones).:

http://www.agilitynut.com/sca/donuts3.html

I don't know what style sign the KK would have had in 1969, but it occurred to me that, if it was an older style and we saw it from "afar off", we might not immediately recognize it as KK.

 

[Searchin']

Searchin',
What's behind the Title & Cash Advance building? Is that also empty lots or a parking lot?
Thanks for your eyes on the ground -- can't wait to see your photos.

There really isn't much (nor is there much space) behind the Title & Cash Advance building: Just a dumpster and a gravel area for parking.

As for photos....I really haven't found much concerning the Woodbine area. However, I'll keep looking and keeping my fingers crossed!