TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[bessie]

Here's the link to the photo. There are three versions, the original, and two with different levels of sharpening applied.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9dpNu3jLO3tel9ab3o4WHlBYzQ&usp=sharing

WARNING: Some will find the photo disturbing. I did.

 

[Backwoods]

OK, just some ponderings sparked by some of the new info bessie brought to the thread tonight:

bbm in the quotes:

I have a copy of the November 2009 Nashville Retrospect with the reprint of the Nashville Banner article by Larry Brinton dated December 2, 1969.

Here are the facts from the portion not visible in the ad posted here Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969.

Some facts are new, some we already know, and some vary from other reports. I'm including all of them, paragraph by paragraph.

• The Civil Defense team started searching Sunday night
• Kathy left home headed to the skating rink at 7:45 P.M. on Saturday evening
• "...an investigation disclosed" that she didn't make it to the rink.
• A Metro policeman at the scene declared, "There had to be at least three persons involved in this." (Keep in mind, this is not an official statement. The officer didn't want to be identified, and it reads like an initial gut reaction. He goes on to say he would "probably want to kill" the persons responsible if he could catch them.)
• K's nude body was lying 20' from the alley.
• It couldn't be seen by searchers walking down the alley or the street.
• Her skates and clothing were lying at her feet. (This description differs somewhat from the one reported by the Scene.)
• K's blouse was used as a gag.
• Two strips of cloth torn from the lining of her jacket were used to tie her wrists. (Answers the question about the plaid cloth some speculated might belong to the killer.)
• Spectators were kept away from the scene while LE searched for clues.
• According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found
• Kathy left home by herself intending to walk to the skating rink.
• She had not been there for "some time" because "she didn't want her two little brothers following her."
• K's mom told the Banner that K earned $1.00 by helping her with housework on Saturday.
• LE didn't say if the money was found at the scene.
• After being taken to the funeral home, Metro M.E., Dr. T. E. Simpkins, was expected to perform "a detailed examination and possible autopsy". (This is not the same doctor we talked about earlier who was named in this article, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723%2C2584619)
• LE at the scene said it was obvious K had been "criminally assaulted, probably before she was slain".
• Parents were separated; father lived in Clarksville.
• The plan was for K to call her mom when she finished skating, and her mom would pick her up.
• When K didn't call, her mom went to the rink, but it was closed.
• After hearing from Mrs. Jones that K had never run away, had no problems at home, and had told her mom she'd call when she was finished skating, the CD director ordered the unit to search.

So, *IF* The Banner got most things right (and taking into consideration that LE knowledge/theory/etc. could have been modified as more hours went by), sounds like Kathy really did set out on her journey pretty late in the evening, planning to walk, not take a bus. And we know now that the plan was for her mother to pick her up later, cued by a phone call.


That all would fit pretty well, thus far, with the "investigation" revealing that Kathy never reached the rink (assuming some folks who did go to the rink, rink employees, etc., were also questioned about seeing her there, as well). IF she was abducted near the KK, though, she got pretty close to her destination, though, right?


It could be that later developments in the investigation amended the initial thought that she never reached the rink somewhat, to the "it's not known" status we've heard elsewhere. Maybe somehow tying in to the suspicions about the bus driver...?



One thing that crosses my mind -- what if, for some reason, Kathy DID reach the rink, skated, and then, for whatever reason, was unable to use a phone at the rink to call her mom. She might have started out to find a phone elsewhere. Phone booth? Krispy Kreme?


I realize it was an impromptu, unofficial comment, but I wonder what about the scene caused the one policeman to say he thought at least three persons were involved? Just the whole horrible impact of it? Or was there something specific that made him think that, at initial glance? Maybe he just felt that it would have been hard for one perp to nab, bind, assault, and kill even one little girl so close (if it happened where she was found) to other people without being observed? (Not saying I think that, myself, just wondering if that maybe was his first impression.)


And that leads on into, why the initial feeling from one investigator that the attack happened where she was found? (We've talked about some possibilities already, I know.)


She was 20 feet from the alley -- so that kind of rules out someone just shoving her body and belongings from a vehicle...that is, unless there were tire tracks in the weeds (which, as far as we know right now, there weren't). OR maybe the weeds didn't start until a good bit out into the lot -- bessie says the vantage point of the photo seems about six feet from Kathy -- and thus a vehicle could pull pretty close without crushing the tall weeds.



Also, I suppose someone COULD have taken her out of a vehicle and carried her into the weeds ...

A dark b&w photo accompanies the article. I'll try to scan it later, but it's so dark, I don't think scanning will work well. General description:

The photo is taken from a viewpoint about 6 feet from K's body. Between the photographer and the body is a narrow path of pressed down weeds and grass. At the end of the pathway is K's body lying horizontally, and covered by what appears to be a white sheet. On either side of the pathway and behind K are tall weeds, at least three feet high. Strewn about in front of the sheet are light colored objects that look like pieces of paper, perhaps something used by the investigators. It's very hard to distinguish.

That path -- (bessie, some of this may not sound plausible to someone who has actually seen the photo, but as I haven't --):

(1) Could have been in existence already, a shortcut of some type, and Kathy and/or the perp could have just followed it.

(2) Could have been made by the perp pulling Kathy into the weeds either before or after the attack.

(3) Could have been made by the searcher who found her (and later, LE), with Kathy and the perp having gotten to the spot by another "path" that doesn't show in the photo.

The way you describe Kathy's body lying "at the end of the pathway" makes it sound as if, in the photo anyhow, it appears that the path doesn't continue on, bessie -- is that right?

Just sorting through some stuff "out loud", hoping it might help any or all of us onward...

ETA: bessie posted the photos link while I was composing this post, so I have seen the photo now. Oh, so sad.

 

[Backwoods]

bessie, also meant to ask you -- what do you think about the mention of Dr. T. E. Simpkins, M.E.? You think maybe he was at least involved in some kind of examination of the body?

I did find a reference to him as a medical examiner at this link (about a different case) -- well, at least I THINK it means he was the medical examiner in that case (punctuated kind of weird):

http://historicnashville.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/murder-on-9-mile-hill/

...Through introduction of testimony from Mrs. Sloan, Dr. T. E. Simpkins, the medical examiner, and officers taking part in the initial investigation, the prosecution established the fact that Mrs. Woodfield had died of stab wounds inflicted on her in her own home. ...

 

[bessie]

bessie, also meant to ask you -- what do you think about the mention of Dr. T. E. Simpkins, M.E.? You think maybe he was at least involved in some kind of examination of the body?

I did find a reference to him as a medical examiner at this link (different case):

http://historicnashville.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/murder-on-9-mile-hill/

It could be that he was supposed to perform the exam, but for some reason -- scheduling, case load, etc. -- the other doctor did it instead. I honestly haven't given that part of it much thought yet.

 

[Backwoods]

Thanks for the picture bessie .... in the past few days I have come across hundreds of 1960 - 1970 historical pictures but most of them are from closer to downtown and not the Thompson lane area

It is also easy to find pics of the Hippodrome roller rink but only an occasional mention about the rink on Thompson Lane

The search continues.

Still working on the DeBardeleben angle (mostly trying to eliminate him ) .... turns out in some of the SS video tapes they (SS) changed the names of some of the ex wives and victims ,,, so that explains some of the discrepancies .... I think Backwoods had noticed that as well (thanks)

I also have found the SS (Secret Service) were more interested in boasting and telling everybody ... "how great they are" .... rather than work at finding all the DeBardeleleben victims .... wish we could have access to the files .... apparently DeBardeleleben had an obsession with writing and keeping notes on everything and receipts for everything .... those boxes of files are probably collecting dust somewhere under the boasting room of the SS offices ...

I have a busy week coming up but will keep digging

Arnie M, I'm gonna take up for the SS a little bit here, LOL. (Gonna try not to clog up Kathy's thread with too much Debardeleben stuff -- well, unless and until it appears it's appropriate to -- now that there's an SK forum thread about him, but did want to address THIS.)

First, know that before watching that video series you made us (well, me, anyhow -- and thanks again!) aware of, I spent some keystrokes over on Carlene Tengelsen's thread bemoaning "why don't they release at least edited-to-show-just-faces pics of the unidentified women in Mike DeB's photos, etc., as with Rodney Alcala's, etc."

The videos did make me aware that they DID do just that, but releasing them just to LE agencies -- that made me feel a little better (although I still worry that some LE agencies may have "missed the memo" or just didn't check it out thoroughly). Videos also made me better aware that they had privacy concerns about the victims -- especially since, in DeB.'s case, many of them may not have been killed.

Don't get me wrong -- I still kind of wish they'd make a public appeal. But what I REALLY wish they would release publicly is the detailed timeline they developed from all those receipts, maps, notes, etc. That could curtail a lot of wild goose chases, possibly -- and boost some sleuthing where it's appropriate!

SS does do some self-back-patting, but I guess maybe they're entitled -- I think maybe it is the other video, the other one I linked, or maybe it is an FBI person speaking in your series, but someone points out that the SS didn't HAVE to go to all that trouble to try to find out what the heck and where the heck DeB. was up to, beyond his counterfeiting. I'll give them some credit for doing so... It had to be a really strange case for them.

However -- too bad they didn't take the hints (more subtle, but still there) from some of the weird stuff they found after his FIRST counterfeiting apprehension. A poster on another thread has pointed out that, sadly, photos/evidence pertaining to some women he may have harmed before then (and Carlene and Kathy would both fall into that time period) may have been lost or destroyed while he served a brief time in prison on that conviction. (Maybe he found a way to hang on to it, though, and it was included in the later haul of weirdness.)

 

[bessie]

OK, just some ponderings sparked by some of the new info bessie brought to the thread tonight:

bbm in the quotes:

So, *IF* The Banner got most things right (and taking into consideration that LE knowledge/theory/etc. could have been modified as more hours went by), sounds like Kathy really did set out on her journey pretty late in the evening, planning to walk, not take a bus. And we know now that the plan was for her mother to pick her up later, cued by a phone call.


That all would fit pretty well, thus far, with the "investigation" revealing that Kathy never reached the rink (assuming some folks who did go to the rink, rink employees, etc., were also questioned about seeing her there, as well). IF she was abducted near the KK, though, she got pretty close to her destination, though, right?


It could be that later developments in the investigation amended the initial thought that she never reached the rink somewhat, to the "it's not known" status we've heard elsewhere. Maybe somehow tying in to the suspicions about the bus driver...?



One thing that crosses my mind -- what if, for some reason, Kathy DID reach the rink, skated, and then, for whatever reason, was unable to use a phone at the rink to call her mom. She might have started out to find a phone elsewhere. Phone booth? Krispy Kreme?


I realize it was an impromptu, unofficial comment, but I wonder what about the scene caused the one policeman to say he thought at least three persons were involved? Just the whole horrible impact of it? Or was there something specific that made him think that, at initial glance? Maybe he just felt that it would have been hard for one perp to nab, bind, assault, and kill even one little girl so close (if it happened where she was found) to other people without being observed? (Not saying I think that, myself, just wondering if that maybe was his first impression.)


And that leads on into, why the initial feeling from one investigator that the attack happened where she was found? (We've talked about some possibilities already, I know.)


She was 20 feet from the alley -- so that kind of rules out someone just shoving her body and belongings from a vehicle...that is, unless there were tire tracks in the weeds (which, as far as we know right now, there weren't). OR maybe the weeds didn't start until a good bit out into the lot -- bessie says the vantage point of the photo seems about six feet from Kathy -- and thus a vehicle could pull pretty close without crushing the tall weeds.



Also, I suppose someone COULD have taken her out of a vehicle and carried her into the weeds ...




That path -- (bessie, some of this may not sound plausible to someone who has actually seen the photo, but as I haven't --):

(1) Could have been in existence already, a shortcut of some type, and Kathy and/or the perp could have just followed it.

(2) Could have been made by the perp pulling Kathy into the weeds either before or after the attack.

(3) Could have been made by the searcher who found her (and later, LE), with Kathy and the perp having gotten to the spot by another "path" that doesn't show in the photo.

The way you describe Kathy's body lying "at the end of the pathway" makes it sound as if, in the photo anyhow, it appears that the path doesn't continue on, bessie -- is that right?

Just sorting through some stuff "out loud", hoping it might help any or all of us onward...

ETA: bessie posted the photos link while I was composing this post, so I have seen the photo now. Oh, so sad.

As you can see now, what I described as a "pathway", imo, likely was made first by the attacker, and then became more defined by LE walking back and forth. And yes, it "ends" at K's body, with the tall weeds behind her standing undisturbed.

Tire tracks would've been immediately obvious in the tall weeds, and led the searchers right to her. Like you said, 20' is much closer to the alley than the street. It's more likely that she either was forced into the lot by her attacker; or, taken from a car parked in the alley and dragged or carried onto the lot after the attack. I still feel like she was abducted while walking near the KK, and forced to walk into the alley and onto the lot. JMO

 

[Backwoods]

As you can see now, what I described as a "pathway", imo, likely was made first by the attacker, and then became more defined by LE walking back and forth. And yes, it "ends" at K's body, with the tall weeds behind her standing undisturbed.

Tire tracks would've been immediately obvious in the tall weeds, and led the searchers right to her. Like you said, 20' is much closer to the alley than the street. It's more likely that she either was forced into the lot by her attacker; or, taken from a car parked in the alley and dragged or carried onto the lot after the attack. I still feel like she was abducted while walking near the KK, and forced to walk into the alley and onto the lot. JMO

Now find us an aerial view, bessie ... I know, I know, crying for the moon! It would be nice, though, huh?

 

[December]

OK, just some ponderings sparked by some of the new info bessie brought to the thread tonight:

bbm in the quotes:

So, *IF* The Banner got most things right (and taking into consideration that LE knowledge/theory/etc. could have been modified as more hours went by), sounds like Kathy really did set out on her journey pretty late in the evening, planning to walk, not take a bus. And we know now that the plan was for her mother to pick her up later, cued by a phone call.


That all would fit pretty well, thus far, with the "investigation" revealing that Kathy never reached the rink (assuming some folks who did go to the rink, rink employees, etc., were also questioned about seeing her there, as well). IF she was abducted near the KK, though, she got pretty close to her destination, though, right?


It could be that later developments in the investigation amended the initial thought that she never reached the rink somewhat, to the "it's not known" status we've heard elsewhere. Maybe somehow tying in to the suspicions about the bus driver...?



One thing that crosses my mind -- what if, for some reason, Kathy DID reach the rink, skated, and then, for whatever reason, was unable to use a phone at the rink to call her mom. She might have started out to find a phone elsewhere. Phone booth? Krispy Kreme?


I realize it was an impromptu, unofficial comment, but I wonder what about the scene caused the one policeman to say he thought at least three persons were involved? Just the whole horrible impact of it? Or was there something specific that made him think that, at initial glance? Maybe he just felt that it would have been hard for one perp to nab, bind, assault, and kill even one little girl so close (if it happened where she was found) to other people without being observed? (Not saying I think that, myself, just wondering if that maybe was his first impression.)


And that leads on into, why the initial feeling from one investigator that the attack happened where she was found? (We've talked about some possibilities already, I know.)


She was 20 feet from the alley -- so that kind of rules out someone just shoving her body and belongings from a vehicle...that is, unless there were tire tracks in the weeds (which, as far as we know right now, there weren't). OR maybe the weeds didn't start until a good bit out into the lot -- bessie says the vantage point of the photo seems about six feet from Kathy -- and thus a vehicle could pull pretty close without crushing the tall weeds.



Also, I suppose someone COULD have taken her out of a vehicle and carried her into the weeds ...




That path -- (bessie, some of this may not sound plausible to someone who has actually seen the photo, but as I haven't --):

(1) Could have been in existence already, a shortcut of some type, and Kathy and/or the perp could have just followed it.

(2) Could have been made by the perp pulling Kathy into the weeds either before or after the attack.

(3) Could have been made by the searcher who found her (and later, LE), with Kathy and the perp having gotten to the spot by another "path" that doesn't show in the photo.

The way you describe Kathy's body lying "at the end of the pathway" makes it sound as if, in the photo anyhow, it appears that the path doesn't continue on, bessie -- is that right?

Just sorting through some stuff "out loud", hoping it might help any or all of us onward...

ETA: bessie posted the photos link while I was composing this post, so I have seen the photo now. Oh, so sad.

Let us just imagine that the Banner got every single detail right as of what was known by their source 12/2/1969. Who is their source? How much of the crime scene has their source seen? Well, it does sound as if he's seen it (he says he wants to kill the murderers which, I don't blame him there!), but how much has he been able to examine?

Some of these details begin to change in papers that ran 12/3/1969... and it's major things. But, in between the Banner doing their story and the other papers chiming in with theirs, we have an examination of Kathy's body. Even if the person doing it was maybe not the best at his job, a body lying outside in 50 degree temperatures for days with various creatures in the environment will be different from one that has been outside for hours.

The time of departure... they have all been picking up the same time. This is probably the origin of that time. However, it may be possible that I can get a better time from the police. It is possible it is later than I was always told.

But, just the fact everyone says 7:45 p.m. exactly tells me they're picking it up probably from here. And the Banner may have even gotten it from Nora (which would explain why everyone would pick up their time). But, I don't know how Nora was doing when they talked to her, she might have been a little distracted.

I will say here about the bus.. even if it did run at night.. if she is leaving at 7:45 (let's just go with that for this post since we don't have anything else), that sounds kind of too late to catch the bus. Honestly, it sounds too late to go skating (seriously, just from a practical POV). The bus might have been lurking around and she might have gotten on it, but if she left that late at night I can't imagine she expected she'd be able to catch the bus. Which would mean she'd be super relieved if the bus happened along and Adcox helpfully offered her a ride to the RD.

I am going to try to find out why they do not know if she ever got there. All I can think is someone claimed they saw her very near there and that threw just enough doubt into things where they had to wonder if maybe she did. Or maybe her street shoes really are missing? (I don't know yet.) If they are, there is the possibility she was taken while changing into her skates or something of that nature.

From a few different things, it sounds like she got close to her destination. But, OTOH, it's really hard to say. We don't know why she was put in that lot. There could be another reason besides it being right beside where she was abducted. I don't know what.. but it could be the murderer could see it from his work and had already decided to put a body there one day and watch what happened. I keep wanting to think she got pretty close to where she was going, but then I realize there is really nothing I know that tells me that.

There was a phone booth at that intersection, I am 99% sure. There would probably have been a pay phone at the RD as well. There could have been a big line and it was getting cold... very cold that night.

I wonder if maybe she got there and did not see her friends there (maybe they'd already gone home or something). What would she do then? Go ahead and skate by herself? Go on to KK? Since she'd walked so far it looks like she'd want to salvage what she could of the night. Maybe she skated alone and attracted the wrong person's attention since apparently pedophiles lovelovelove skating rinks.

I have driven my car onto weeds before and if you don't stay parked on them, they don't get squished too much. Granted, I was not doing anything nefarious, so it didn't matter. But, it surprised me that they sprang back up. Looking at the weather, it had been pretty dry.. and the weeds were thick.. I think that he just drove onto the lot dumped her and quickly drove back out. I was imagining the weeds to be kind of pathetic, but they are robust looking weeds.

But, and I'm not really proposing this as a theory, but I'm just saying.. it almost looks like he used a wheelbarrow (just looking at the path). That seems wildly impractical considering what he was leaving. But, that is what the path looks like. I'm sure it is just due to various people treading along the same track.

 

[December]

It could be that he was supposed to perform the exam, but for some reason -- scheduling, case load, etc. -- the other doctor did it instead. I honestly haven't given that part of it much thought yet.

Either the source said it (but the source didn't know for sure) or this was the person the Banner would assume would be the most likely candidate. These would be my guesses.

I will try to see if there is an explanation in the police file. But, I don't think he is a medical examiner either. They keep saying now that Nashville did not have such a thing back then. But, IDK.

 

[bessie]

To complete this list I'm adding what we already knew from the article.

• Kathy Jones was a blonde, blue-eyed sixth grader
• Her body was found 300 yards from the Roller Drome Skating Rink on Thompson Lane.
• Kathy "apparently" was dead since Saturday night
• She "probably" was attacked while walking to the skating rink.
• She "apparently" suffocated
• A sock was stuffed down her throat
• Her blouse was "shoved into her mouth"
• Lying face down in the tall weeds behind Krispy Kreme
• A "faint trace of blood" on her stomach
• She was wearing only one sock
• A Civil Defense sergeant made the discovery
• The Civil Defense team started searching Sunday night
• A resident who lived next to the lot didn't hear unusual noises on Saturday night. She was away visiting relatives all day on Sunday.
• Kathy left home headed to the skating rink at 7:45 P.M. on Saturday evening
• "...an investigation disclosed" that she didn't make it to the rink.
• A Metro policeman at the scene declared, "There had to be at least three persons involved in this." (Keep in mind, this is not an official statement. The officer didn't want to be identified, and it reads like an initial gut reaction. He goes on to say he would "probably want to kill" the persons responsible if he could catch them.)
• K's nude body was lying 20' from the alley.
• It couldn't be seen by searchers walking down the alley or the street.
• Her skates and clothing were lying at her feet. (This description differs somewhat from the one reported by the Scene.)
• K's blouse was used as a gag.
• Two strips of cloth torn from the lining of her jacket were used to tie her wrists. (Answers the question about the plaid cloth some speculated might belong to the killer.)
• Spectators were kept away from the scene while LE searched for clues.
• According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found
• The body was taken to a funeral home after an investigator from the DA's office arrived on the scene.
• Kathy left home by herself intending to walk to the skating rink.
• She had not been there for "some time" because "she didn't want her two little brothers following her."
• K's mom told the Banner that K earned $1.00 by helping her with housework on Saturday.
• LE didn't say if the money was found at the scene.
• K was not "to the nylon-lipstick stage", according to her mother.
• After being taken to the funeral home, Metro M.E., Dr. T. E. Simpkins, was expected to perform "a detailed examination and possible autopsy". (This is not the same doctor we talked about earlier who was named in this article, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723,2584619)
• LE at the scene said it was obvious K had been "criminally assaulted, probably before she was slain".
• Parents were separated; father lived in Clarksville.
• The plan was for K to call her mom when she finished skating, and her mom would pick her up.
• When K didn't call, her mom went to the rink, but it was closed.
• After hearing from Mrs. Jones that K had never run away, had no problems at home, and had told her mom she'd call when she was finished skating, the CD director ordered the unit to search.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9dpNu3jLO3tel9ab3o4WHlBYzQ&usp=sharing

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

To complete this list I'm adding what we already knew from the article.

• Kathy Jones was a blonde, blue-eyed sixth grader
• Her body was found 300 yards from the Roller Drome Skating Rink on Thompson Lane.
• Kathy "apparently" was dead since Saturday night
• She "probably" was attacked while walking to the skating rink.
• She "apparently" suffocated
• A sock was stuffed down her throat
• Her blouse was "shoved into her mouth"
• Lying face down in the tall weeds behind Krispy Kreme
• A "faint trace of blood" on her stomach
• She was wearing only one sock
• A Civil Defense sergeant made the discovery
• The Civil Defense team started searching Sunday night
• A resident who lived next to the lot didn't hear unusual noises on Saturday night. She was away visiting relatives all day on Sunday.
• Kathy left home headed to the skating rink at 7:45 P.M. on Saturday evening
• "...an investigation disclosed" that she didn't make it to the rink.
• A Metro policeman at the scene declared, "There had to be at least three persons involved in this." (Keep in mind, this is not an official statement. The officer didn't want to be identified, and it reads like an initial gut reaction. He goes on to say he would "probably want to kill" the persons responsible if he could catch them.)
• K's nude body was lying 20' from the alley.
• It couldn't be seen by searchers walking down the alley or the street.
• Her skates and clothing were lying at her feet. (This description differs somewhat from the one reported by the Scene.)
• K's blouse was used as a gag.
• Two strips of cloth torn from the lining of her jacket were used to tie her wrists. (Answers the question about the plaid cloth some speculated might belong to the killer.)
• Spectators were kept away from the scene while LE searched for clues.
• According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found
• The body was taken to a funeral home after an investigator from the DA's office arrived on the scene.
• Kathy left home by herself intending to walk to the skating rink.
• She had not been there for "some time" because "she didn't want her two little brothers following her."
• K's mom told the Banner that K earned $1.00 by helping her with housework on Saturday.
• LE didn't say if the money was found at the scene.
• K was not "to the nylon-lipstick stage", according to her mother.
• After being taken to the funeral home, Metro M.E., Dr. T. E. Simpkins, was expected to perform "a detailed examination and possible autopsy". (This is not the same doctor we talked about earlier who was named in this article, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723%2C2584619)
• LE at the scene said it was obvious K had been "criminally assaulted, probably before she was slain".
• Parents were separated; father lived in Clarksville.
• The plan was for K to call her mom when she finished skating, and her mom would pick her up.
• When K didn't call, her mom went to the rink, but it was closed.
• After hearing from Mrs. Jones that K had never run away, had no problems at home, and had told her mom she'd call when she was finished skating, the CD director ordered the unit to search.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9dpNu3jLO3tel9ab3o4WHlBYzQ&usp=sharing

From above.
According to an investigator, it "appeared" the sexual attack had taken place at the scene where K's body was found

If and when the LEO with the files today tell us something different Its my speculation only, that the crime was committed where she was found.

Being autumn the ground was HARD. And with all the movements going on and someone heavier than her on top pushing her down into the hard ground I can see how that would make her rear appear black and blue for lack of better words.

300 yards away from the ring, but found behind the kk has me to believe she was taken there, but I don't believe she made it inside there neither. She got close coming off grand-view but never made it inside.

Thank you for posting the photo of the crime scene Bessie. Those weeds are tall enough that no one would have seen a thing. And with an object inside her mouth, no one would have heard a thing either. 20 feet or so off the alley, and close to the kk from the backside of the store coming down grandview is where she ran into the Demon. I believe it was local and someone whom had walked to that area themselves when they met Kathy.

Some of this could change, once we know about the shoes.

from above.
Her skates and clothing were lying at her feet.
After ripping the liner from her coat to bind her hands behind her back her rolled her over and used her coat as a cushion not to scratch his knees from the hard ground.

The above is nothing more than speculation and assumptions based on what I have read, and the photos that have been published here. Stating nothing as being fact unless otherwise known to be.

add on ...
As far as the arching of her back, neck far back if that information is correct and she was found face down.
from above.
Lying face down in the tall weeds behind Krispy Kreme

He could have rolled her over on her stomach and got on top and while raping her again he grabbed her shoulders with his hands, or her neck or hair even pulled her backwards in an extreme way, while this rapping was occurring if a physical death occurred during his rape rig may have started and continued just enough before she was let go to keep her in this arched position with her head in the far back position. Though purely speculation on that.

I do believe she was rapped at least twice by the same individual.

 

[bessie]

Articles from December 3, 1969

• Kathy died from suffocation around noon on Monday, December 1, 1969.
• She "apparently" was held captive for 36 hours
• Sixteen LEO's assigned to the case
• Three persons were questioned. All were released.
• One man was questioned and subsequently arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
• K was a shy girl who wouldn't talk to strange men.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723%2C2584619

• Two men sought for questioning
• One man in custody

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...rder kathy jones nashville tn&pg=4718,4334632

 

[December]

Remember that Kathy was reported as missing by her mother. The police, keeping with the custom of the day, decided she ran away. Sounds like Sunday night a search began. One question I have for the police is was that lot searched BEFORE she was found in it?

There are some non-specificed issues with the search, so what the Banner has is wrong. What the other papers have is wrong. There is another story with the search, but I don't have it yet. I believe that the papers tried to go with the most logical narrative with the search since some of these issues may have been known at the time. When I find out the correct scenario, I will post it of I can. I specifically asked about the search. This is just a general heads up that things might change depending on what those conflicting issues are.

I know all logic says she was attacked in the field which is why the Banner printed that. If she'd been found 11/30 then that would be the definite case. But, for some reason, everyone changed what they thought happened and it has stayed changed for over 40 years through many detectives. I'm just saying, bear this in mind. I know it makes less sense than the other way, but murders don't really make sense.

The ground being hard... well, maybe.. but, IDK. The weeds are very thick. So, this is a different scenario. The weeds look prickly. She should have scrapes and stuff from them. Maybe she did, I do not know. But, no one ever acted like she was attacked there after the first day. This is why people are very afraid.

MrTT, she was raped more than twice. I hate to say. It is a bizarre crime and I don't think I have ever heard of any like it.

Well, I have.. but not in Nashville.

I think he took her somewhere because he wanted to keep her. But, he was too rough with her and killed her before he meant to. This was after all of the other stabbings and hittings. So, then he took her back to the lot, somehow.

Maybe it started and ended in the same place.

I just keep seeing her in a narrow room. The walls are whitish, I am looking through a door. there is a counter and she is partly on that. No matter what else anyone says or writes, this picture is in my head and it won't stop. Over and over I see it. I don't try to. But, it keeps coming to me... for years. I wish I could draw.. this is a place. It is one of those places that seems obvious once you know, but if you don't maybe you won't see. Hidden in plain sight. This is just in my head. I don't know if someone told me this or what. But, it doesn't go away. Maybe the police found it. Maybe they just need a clue to connect the killer and her to it for sure. I will ask.

 

[December]

http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LINK_Train_Interior.jpg

I decided to find the room... or one like it.

this is from a train. it is much more modern than anything Kathy could have ever been in (willingly or not). but the general perspective is similar.

there was a railyard very close by where she was found.

 

[December]

http://www.twinmodular.com/Available_Used_Modulars/Ad Images/OceanSurveys-Interior24x48.jpg

inside a construction trailer. this one is wider than some. but to give an idea.

 

[bessie]

Remember that Kathy was reported as missing by her mother. The police, keeping with the custom of the day, decided she ran away. Sounds like Sunday night a search began. One question I have for the police is was that lot searched BEFORE she was found in it?

There are some non-specificed issues with the search, so what the Banner has is wrong. What the other papers have is wrong. There is another story with the search, but I don't have it yet. I believe that the papers tried to go with the most logical narrative with the search since some of these issues may have been known at the time. When I find out the correct scenario, I will post it of I can. I specifically asked about the search. This is just a general heads up that things might change depending on what those conflicting issues are.

I know all logic says she was attacked in the field which is why the Banner printed that. If she'd been found 11/30 then that would be the definite case. But, for some reason, everyone changed what they thought happened and it has stayed changed for over 40 years through many detectives. I'm just saying, bear this in mind. I know it makes less sense than the other way, but murders don't really make sense.

The ground being hard... well, maybe.. but, IDK. The weeds are very thick. So, this is a different scenario. The weeds look prickly. She should have scrapes and stuff from them. Maybe she did, I do not know. But, no one ever acted like she was attacked there after the first day. This is why people are very afraid.

MrTT, she was raped more than twice. I hate to say. It is a bizarre crime and I don't think I have ever heard of any like it.

Well, I have.. but not in Nashville.

I think he took her somewhere because he wanted to keep her. But, he was too rough with her and killed her before he meant to. This was after all of the other stabbings and hittings. So, then he took her back to the lot, somehow.

Maybe it started and ended in the same place.

I just keep seeing her in a narrow room. The walls are whitish, I am looking through a door. there is a counter and she is partly on that. No matter what else anyone says or writes, this picture is in my head and it won't stop. Over and over I see it. I don't try to. But, it keeps coming to me... for years. I wish I could draw.. this is a place. It is one of those places that seems obvious once you know, but if you don't maybe you won't see. Hidden in plain sight. This is just in my head. I don't know if someone told me this or what. But, it doesn't go away. Maybe the police found it. Maybe they just need a clue to connect the killer and her to it for sure. I will ask.

Respectfully, December, the paper didn't print that she'd been attacked in the field because it's logical. That statement was made to a reporter by an investigator on the scene who said it "appeared" to have happened that way. It was an initial observation based on what was apparent at the time, and no one said it was etched in stone. Later, the coroner determined the time of death to be Monday at noon, and the scenario changed because obviously she was not held for 36-40 hours in that vacant lot. There might be other reasons why they thought she was held captive, but time of death was one.

I'm sure we all realize that some facts are unknown, and reported "facts" might be inaccurate, but certainly many of them are true. I hope you will get answers to the missing pieces very soon.

 

[nola]

Articles from December 3, 1969

• Kathy died from suffocation around noon on Monday, December 1, 1969.
• She "apparently" was held captive for 36 hours
• Sixteen LEO's assigned to the case
• Three persons were questioned. All were released.
• One man was questioned and subsequently arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
• K was a shy girl who wouldn't talk to strange men.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHkcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fFEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6723%2C2584619

• Two men sought for questioning
• One man in custody

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...rder kathy jones nashville tn&pg=4718,4334632

All stated is just my humble opinion...
Reviewing all the news articles it seems to me that what we have is a change of investigator's initial 'take' on this crime once the coroner stated that the TOD was around noon on Monday. 'Everything' changes once "apparently" Kathy was held captive for 36 hours before dying at noon on Monday, and then (after death) left in the empty lot.
But If the coroner (Dr. Petrone) is incorrect (as he was in Marcia Trimble's case by 15+ days; and even by admission in Lillian Hick's case, that his estimate of TOD could be off as much as 4 hours) then once again, it is possible that Kathy died within hours of the attack - and perhaps the detective's first instincts are closer to what happened.
We know that the severe bruising means that she lived for a while after the brutal rape - enough time for her body to show the effects. But that could just mean hours, not days. So if the TOD is wrong and she died (let's say) early on Sunday morning then the crime could have happened in the lot or very close by (in killer's vehicle).
Multiple perps could have been involved, grabbing Kathy as he walked along with her skates that night, driving to an isolated spot near by (maybe even behind a business along the alley) where the beating and gang type rape(s) occurred. Once done, they could have pulled up to the empty lot, gathered her belongings and left her in the tall grass.
Since we also know that if Kathy had been in the lot, her body would not have been seen from the street or the alley - the tall weeds were obviously pretty dense (per Bessie shared photo). I believe that any earlier search of that lot prior to Tuesday would have disturbed the weeds and would have factored into the detectives first impression of the crime scene. Surely, this question would have been asked by reporters, as well. Just as the numerous previous searches of the garage were reported in the Trimble case.

I have to say, that it so pains me that Kathy's body was not autopsied. :banghead: However, Dr. P was a medical doctor, so surely his coroner's report holds something that can eventually tie a suspect to her murder. lease:


Mrs Lillian Hick's article. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=19720903&id=0QwrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tJoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2939,1497847

 

[Arnie M]

We often hear of the tall weeds in the lot but this newspaper article says "heavily wooded" as well

Quote ... she (Kathy) was lying face down in the heavily wooded field at 2806 Grandview Ave . [behind Krispy Kreme doughnuts]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969

 

[nola]

--Respectfully snipped--
I just keep seeing her in a narrow room. The walls are whitish, I am looking through a door. there is a counter and she is partly on that. No matter what else anyone says or writes, this picture is in my head and it won't stop. Over and over I see it. I don't try to. But, it keeps coming to me... for years. I wish I could draw.. this is a place. It is one of those places that seems obvious once you know, but if you don't maybe you won't see. Hidden in plain sight. This is just in my head. I don't know if someone told me this or what. But, it doesn't go away. Maybe the police found it. Maybe they just need a clue to connect the killer and her to it for sure. I will ask.

I read your post and my heart hurts for you -- crying for your pain. I pray that this crime's haunting of your soul will end and that you (and Kathy) will get justice. So sorry that you and your family have had to endure the evil of this world.

 

[December]

Respectfully, December, the paper didn't print that she'd been attacked in the field because it's logical. That statement was made to a reporter by an investigator on the scene who said it "appeared" to have happened that way. It was an initial observation based on what was apparent at the time, and no one said it was etched in stone. Later, the coroner determined the time of death to be Monday at noon, and the scenario changed because obviously she was not held for 36-40 hours in that vacant lot. There might be other reasons why they thought she was held captive, but time of death was one.

I'm sure we all realize that some facts are unknown, and reported "facts" might be inaccurate, but certainly many of them are true. I hope you will get answers to the missing pieces very soon.

I understand someone told them that. i am sorry not to be clear. yes, i know someone said it.

but, i think NOW reading it, it sounds logical to people. this is what i am trying to say.

i am sorry. i cannot always explain things becuase i get upset and i am trying to write it down as best i can.

i thought it would never be solved because i read all these cases on here and none of them are like Kathy's.

it is hard to read detailed senarios of how it is possible she was raped this way and that way and another way in the lot when it didn't happen. i am trying to be strong. i'm sorry.