GUILTY TN - Six elementary students killed in Chattanooga school bus crash, 21 Nov 2016

[CARIIS]

Wait - maybe I'm confused. He wasn't drug tested after this accident this week? That linked article was about an earlier fender bender.

I was confused about this too. They said they got a warrant for a blood draw to test?? The way it here is you basically have no choose or your license is taken.

Basically what we have learned from aviation is focusing on the where and how the seats are attached (related to G- Forces) are more important than seat belts.

Up to a threshold, seatbelts but help , but once G-forces exceed certain levels, in more intense accident sequences, objects (the seats themselves) become dangerous.

IMO in this accident sequence seatbelts would have not altered outcome, if sides of the bus were built to higher tolerances maybe the occupiable space would have been larger.

In any wreck "occupiable space" is the end all. In aviation they increased the g loads aviation seats must meet and we have seen huge differences. The Asiana crash in San Fran -- a lot of people got out of that one cause the higher G-loading seat attachments.

Earlier someone asked about the crash sequence. I saw an animation a few days ago and tried to find for you guys. It helped me immensely in understanding what occurred.

So here goes!

We are the driver in his seat facing forward. The bus apparently went off the road a little to the right. He attempted to correct, overcorrected to the left, and the bus fell over onto its right, (perpendicular to the highway) side and continued sliding down the road on its side , sideways.

The right side of the bus ; was the side scraping down the road, before the actual impact sequence began. It kinda seemed to me (doubt stuff had been timed yet) but the slide on its side down the highway might have been kinda longer than imagined..

It careened that way for a bit, went up a slightly inclined driveway which altered its trajectory, and the actual impact sequence started. ( My sense is that the flipping twice is not correct) - from the pics and the animation, it seems as if the vehicle remained on its right side , from the initial loss of control, through the entire slide, until final impact sequence started with the mailbox , pole, and with the tree which ended the impact sequence.

Don't know if that helps!!

 

[Jax49]

I was confused about this too. They said they got a warrant for a blood draw to test?? The way it here is you basically have no choose or your license is taken.

The two incidents got confused. He was not tested before but he was this week. It came back negative for drugs or alcohol.

 

[CARIIS]

I think at the end of the day we are gonna be talking about driver fatigue. I saw several documentaries on Amazon, and it brought back memories of what slavery might have been like.

They are hideously abusive.

[video=youtube;Vmc1KPD44Sg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmc1KPD44Sg[/video]

[FONT=&amp]Durham, based in Warrenville, Ill., operates about 13,700 vehicles around the U.S. and has nearly as many drivers, according to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.

[/FONT]http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/22/bus-driver-in-deadly-chattanooga-crash-had-reputation-for-speeding.html

A mother and 8-year-old son, who was injured in the crash, filed a lawsuit against Durham on Wednesday,

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-chattanooga-school-bus-crash-20161123-story.html

 

[rsd1200]

I think at the end of the day we are gonna be talking about driver fatigue. I saw several documentaries on Amazon, and it brought back memories of what slavery might have been like.

They are hideously abusive.

[video=youtube;Vmc1KPD44Sg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmc1KPD44Sg[/video]

[FONT=&amp]Durham, based in Warrenville, Ill., operates about 13,700 vehicles around the U.S. and has nearly as many drivers, according to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.

[/FONT]http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/22/bus-driver-in-deadly-chattanooga-crash-had-reputation-for-speeding.html

A mother and 8-year-old son, who was injured in the crash, filed a lawsuit against Durham on Wednesday,

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-chattanooga-school-bus-crash-20161123-story.html

I've had family/friends work there, as a temp 2nd job for extra money during the holidays, and to try and stay on after the holidays for a permanent job. It is a high speed environment. Especially during this time of year. It's just non-stop. They barely get a break to eat or relieve themselves. I'm leaning toward exhaustion too. It's just horrible, and heartbreaking, all the way around.

 

[Jax49]

Apologies if this was already linked. BBM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-bus-crash-killed-5-children-had-left-n687851

The Hamilton County Board of Education confirmed in a statement Wednesday that it had received complaints recently about Walker "and the way he operated his bus."

It said the complaints were forwarded to Durham School Services, the private company that is contracted to provide bus services for the school system, for whom Walker worked.

Hart, of the NTSB, said Durham was operating under a "conditional" federal safety rating, meaning some unspecified problems had been uncovered in the past, but that they had been resolved satisfactorily, in August 2015.

 

[Elley Mae]

Apologies if this was already linked. BBM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-bus-crash-killed-5-children-had-left-n687851

Sounds like he may have known about the problems w his license.

With the bus accident in baltimore that killed 6? The driver also had an issue w his license.

 

[katydid23]

But how does exhaustion make a driver go 60 mph on a windy road?

 

[al66pine]

Apologies if this was already linked. BBM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-bus-crash-killed-5-children-had-left-n687851

Thx Jax49 for this article. from ^ link.

"Hart [NTSB chairman] said that the investigation had just begun and that it wasn't known why Walker — who received his commercial driver's license only seven months ago — had left his normal route." bbm

Had Tenn. CDL only seven months? Is it possible he previously had CDL in TN, and let it expire or had it revoked/suspended/etc, then was able to get CDL again? Or maybe had CDL in another state?
Both ^ = pure spec on my part, thinking aloud.

 

[bluesneakers]

Thx Jax49 for this article. from ^ link.

"Hart [NTSB chairman] said that the investigation had just begun and that it wasn't known why Walker — who received his commercial driver's license only seven months ago — had left his normal route." bbm

Had Tenn. CDL only seven months? Is it possible he previously had CDL in TN, and let it expire or had it revoked/suspended/etc, then was able to get CDL again? Or maybe had CDL in another state?
Both ^ = pure spec on my part, thinking aloud.

Googled. I was confused.

 

[rsd1200]

But how does exhaustion make a driver go 60 mph on a windy road?

Not exhaustion as much as sleep deprived. They're worse than drunk drivers. They can still function. Idk, it could have been deliberate, but from first hand experience, when they get that sleepy, they just don't really realize. I thought I was going to die. I prayed.

 

[al66pine]

Apologies if this was already linked. BBM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-bus-crash-killed-5-children-had-left-n687851

Thx Jax49 for this article. from ^ link.

"Hart [NTSB chairman] said that the investigation had just begun and that it wasn't known why Walker — who received his commercial driver's license only seven months ago — had left his normal route." bbm

Had Tenn. CDL only seven months? Every bus driver has to start somewhere, can't start w 10 yrs experience under the belt.

Is it possible he previously had CDL in TN, and let it expire or had it revoked/suspended/etc, then was able to get CDL again? Or maybe had CDL in another state before? ^Both = pure spec on my part.

 

[MommyStephV]

Googled. I was confused.

He wouldn't have been able to obtain any license in TN if his driving privileges - either commercial or regular - were not valid in another state. CDL's are much more heavily regulated by the federal government than a regular license. I'm almost positive to obtain a CDL you now have to have a CDL learners permit for 2 weeks before you can obtain a full regular CDL. I work for our state DMV here but my division handles suspensions and revocations, not issuance, so I'm not 100% positive on some of the requirements to obtain documents, I am positive though, he wouldn't have gotten any sort of document, other than just an ID card, if he wasn't valid in all other states.


Edited because of course I can't figure out how to reply to the right post. I was trying to reply to the post above about him maybe having a CDL previously from another state...[emoji5]

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[al66pine]

Thanks re ^ post, MommyStephV. Looks like a combo of fed & TN law applies to CDL for school bus drivers.. Also looks like you were right about the suspension question, per TN law waaaay below.

_________________________________________________________
Below is 'plain English' from TN's safety agency, issuing CDLs
From https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt my bolding & snipping.
"What is a Commercial License?
Operators of larger and more complex vehicles will need to apply for a Commercial Driver License (CDL). These licenses include Class A, B, and C ....
If ... the vehicle is designed to transport more than fifteen (15) passengers including the including the driver, or if the vehicle is used as a school bus, a CDL would also be required, regardless of the weight of the vehicle.
- See more at: https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt#sthash.bA0DkuwG.dpuf
"How do I obtain a CDL learner's permit?
To obtain your permit, you must take and pass the CDL general knowledge test. Full-Service Driver Service Centers throughout the state** offer the CDL general knowledge test and the knowledge tests for any endorsement needed.
Is a temporary CDL authorized? No. The Temporary Driver License is not available to cover any type of commercial motor vehicle. - See more at: https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt#sthash.bA0DkuwG.dpuf
"Which tests are required when adding an endorsement to a CDL?Per federal regulation §383.93, paragraph C:
The following tests are required for endorsements:
.... (c)(5) School bus - knowledge and a skills test.
- See more at: https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt#sthash.bA0DkuwG.dpuf


Text of TN statute, w my bolding & snipping. From http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/
"55-50-404. Commercial driver license required.....
(b) No person may be issued a commercial driver license before passing a written and driving test for the operation of a commercial motor vehicle that complies with the minimum federal standards in 49 CFR part 383, and has satisfied all other federal requirements, as well as any other requirements imposed by state law....
(c) A commercial driver license may be issued only to a person who operates or will operate commercial motor vehicles and who is domiciled in this state; provided, that a commercial driver certificate may be issued to a person who operates or will operate a commercial motor vehicle and is not domiciled in a state that issues a commercial driver license in accordance with 49 CFR part 383.
(d) A commercial driver license may not be issued to a person during a period in which the person is disqualified from operating a commercial motor vehicle, or while the person's driver license is suspended, revoked or cancelled in any state; nor may a commercial driver license be issued to a person unless the person first surrenders all previously issued driver licenses, either commercial or noncommercial, issued by any state...."

 

[MommyStephV]

To add to my earlier post, with the commercial licenses, there are certain violations that are considered disqualifying offenses. Some are "serious" some are "major" and you are given so many serious or major convictions in a certain time period before your commercial license would be disqualified for a certain period of time. You can only be disqualified so many times before your are permanently disqualified and can never obtain a CDL again. There's a national driver registry, and the state that disqualified you puts a hold or stop out there that would prevent other states from issuing a credential i.e.: license to you.

Here's more information about CDL disqualifications:

http://www.dmv.nebraska.gov/frd/susprev/cdl.html


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[Spellbound]

Summary of all we know/don't know up to this point:
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/33778782/chattanooga-bus-crash-what-we-know-and-dont-know

 

[KaaBoom]

Summary of all we know/don't know up to this point:
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/33778782/chattanooga-bus-crash-what-we-know-and-dont-know

That article makes no sense.

The NSTB was having some problems downloading video and data from the cameras and the engine control module on the bus because of damage, according to agency chairman Christopher Hart.

Investigators are reviewing videos from the three cameras on the bus -- one rear-facing, one forward-facing and one facing the entrance -- and an informational box on the bus to determine what caused the crash.

So are they reviewing the video and data, or are they having problems getting it? Who writes this stuff? :facepalm:

 

[Spellbound]

That article makes no sense.





So are they reviewing the video and data, or are they having problems getting it? Who writes this stuff? :facepalm:

it sounds like they did get some down-loaded information from the cameras, but it was difficult to do.

He also said three cameras were on the bus and video footage had been downloaded from them for review, but downloading was difficult because they were damaged in the crash. The cameras also have audio recordings.

Police Chief Fletcher confirmed that investigators will be looking into multiple bus cameras that may have footage of the incident, but could not say how many cameras there were. [I am not clear if this means more video from cameras on this bus; perhaps they are not done with downloading everything]
He also said a preliminary listening of audio recorded on the bus did not confirm Walker made the death threat.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...ide-information-fatal-bus-crash-probe/399467/

and this:
Hart says the NTSB is bringing in a specialist to analyze video and audio recordings made on interior cameras that were damaged in Monday's wreck. Investigators are facing similar challenges in retrieving speed and braking information from the engine control module that has been removed from the bus
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-drugs-alcohol-involved-fatal-bus-crash-43746803

 

[MommyStephV]

Thanks re ^ post, MommyStephV. Looks like a combo of fed & TN law applies to CDL for school bus drivers.. Also looks like you were right about the suspension question, per TN law waaaay below.

_________________________________________________________
Below is 'plain English' from TN's safety agency, issuing CDLs
From https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt my bolding & snipping.
"What is a Commercial License?
Operators of larger and more complex vehicles will need to apply for a Commercial Driver License (CDL). These licenses include Class A, B, and C ....
If ... the vehicle is designed to transport more than fifteen (15) passengers including the including the driver, or if the vehicle is used as a school bus, a CDL would also be required, regardless of the weight of the vehicle.
- See more at: https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt#sthash.bA0DkuwG.dpuf
"How do I obtain a CDL learner's permit?
To obtain your permit, you must take and pass the CDL general knowledge test. Full-Service Driver Service Centers throughout the state** offer the CDL general knowledge test and the knowledge tests for any endorsement needed.
Is a temporary CDL authorized? No. The Temporary Driver License is not available to cover any type of commercial motor vehicle. - See more at: https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt#sthash.bA0DkuwG.dpuf
"Which tests are required when adding an endorsement to a CDL?Per federal regulation §383.93, paragraph C:
The following tests are required for endorsements:
.... (c)(5) School bus - knowledge and a skills test.
- See more at: https://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt#sthash.bA0DkuwG.dpuf


Text of TN statute, w my bolding & snipping. From http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/
"55-50-404. Commercial driver license required.....
(b) No person may be issued a commercial driver license before passing a written and driving test for the operation of a commercial motor vehicle that complies with the minimum federal standards in 49 CFR part 383, and has satisfied all other federal requirements, as well as any other requirements imposed by state law....
(c) A commercial driver license may be issued only to a person who operates or will operate commercial motor vehicles and who is domiciled in this state; provided, that a commercial driver certificate may be issued to a person who operates or will operate a commercial motor vehicle and is not domiciled in a state that issues a commercial driver license in accordance with 49 CFR part 383.
(d) A commercial driver license may not be issued to a person during a period in which the person is disqualified from operating a commercial motor vehicle, or while the person's driver license is suspended, revoked or cancelled in any state; nor may a commercial driver license be issued to a person unless the person first surrenders all previously issued driver licenses, either commercial or noncommercial, issued by any state...."

This is likely pretty accurate, it's from Lexis Nexis which is a third party service which generally requires payment for information. From my experience they don't always have accurate and/or up to date information.

Here's the TN CDL information from their website....http://www.tn.gov/safety/topic/cdlalt

All official government websites will have a .gov ending. Anything that doesn't makes me skeptical.


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[Thora_Jay]

Thu November 24, 2016

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/24/us/chattanooga-school-bus-crash/?iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial


Chattanooga, Tennessee (CNN)A Chattanooga school bus had not been traveling on its designated route when it crashed, killing six children and injuring dozens, investigators said.
The bus was on its way to drop off children after school Monday when driver Johnthony Walker swerved off the road and the vehicle plowed into a tree.

The bus, carrying 37 students, was not supposed to be on the narrow Talley Road, according to crash investigators.
"We are investigating why it was not on the designated route," National Transportation Safety Board Chairman Christopher A. Hart said.




First lawsuit filed


The first lawsuit stemming from the crash was filed Wednesday by the family of Jamar Boling, 8, who was injured in the accident. The complaint, which alleges that Boling sustained significant physical and psychological injuries, names the driver and Durham School Services, which operates the bus service.

More at link at top of post.

 

[CARIIS]

NTSB will get his wake-sleep info,--to see how exhausted he was.