To train up a child, book has lead to the death of 3 children

[Deleted member 96356]

My guess is that kids who were in the system and had a poor home life to be taken from their parents, had emotional and behavioral problems, therefore were harder to get to behave than the bio kids.

Good point, and add to that the kids have come from other cultures, plus language barrier. "Respect! My! Authority!" is not a very effective childrearing method when the kid has a steep learning curve and is in a totally new environment, IMO. They're not being "willful" and "sinful", they just need time to understand.

And then there is the sad fact that people aren't always pleased with who they adopted. The monster who adopted Hana Williams was reportedly disappointed when Hana showed up as a young adolescent - they were expecting a younger girl. She pretty much rejected Hana from the start.

Basically, I don't think some people adopt for the right reason. "We very much want a child" is IMO totally different from "we want to save a heathen".

JMO, YMMV, :twocents:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Affidavit from Hana William's murder:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/66907264/Probable-Cause

It's horrific reading!

Hana's younger brother, also adopted, had a condition where he was leaking urine and he got disciplined when he did so. Who the **** disciplines a child for an accident like that, let alone a condition making him constantly prone to leak?

These so-called Christians doesn't have any trouble lying to protect themselves!

They are not Christians.. please stop calling them that..

People who believe in God do not practice this torture on children.

 

[Norwegian]

They are not Christians.. please stop calling them that..

People who believe in God do not practice this torture on children.

I said "so-called Christians"

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I said "so-called Christians"

Yeah, I know but they aren't even that. They are hateful abusive people that killed a child.

 

[Norwegian]

Did some more reading on the Schatz family.

Looks like one of their other children, Zariah Schatz, almost died at the same time.

If you google her name there's some terrible pictures of her bruised body.

Also a video, here: 301 Moved Permanently

Where she speaks about being hit "under her feet." That's torture!

 

[CHICANA]

Sean Paddock at his fourth birthday



http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/SeanPaddock.html

And lots more information at link!

When I had issues with my teen and child protective services came into the picture, they were going to have me take a class called parenting with love and logic, based on a book written by Foster Cline. I told them I'd already read the book and was, in fact, basing my parenting on it. This particular book doesn't promote any type of physical discipline at all, it's about giving your kids options, letting them choose, then letting them suffer the consequences of their choices. Anyway, I didn't get to take that class, however, when I checked out Foster Cline, I saw an article that mentioned him and his theory on re-birthing and how it lead to the death of a little girl. Since the victims here all seem to be adopted, I thought that maybe it has something to do with the "re-birthing" process which is outright child abuse.

They basically suffocate these children.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f227/re-birthing-death-candace-newmaker-30925/

Ponder: Candace? [No response] [Takes another pillow from Newmaker. Ponder repositions her body and pushes on Candace with her hands and body, grunting twice.] She needs more pressure over here so she can’t… so she really needs to fight. [McDaniel repositions himself on the pillow over Candace’s head, and she whimpers.]

Watkins: Getting pretty tight in here.

Ponder: Yep… less and less air all the time.

35:39 – 40:00 — (Ponder and McDaniel reposition themselves again.)

Ponder: She gets to be stuck in her own puke and poop.

Watkins: Uh huh. It’s her own life. Quitter.

40:01: Newmaker: Baby, do you want to be born?

[Weakly responds] No. [This is Candace’s last word.]

More on Foster Cline - CPS was still promoting his material in 2006 even though in 1995... Cline was charged with various breaches of professional conduct by the Colorado State Board of Medical Examiners. The charges were related to Cline's supervision of Connell Watkins(the same one involved in Candace's murder) and Michael Orlans in their treatment of a minor child, "T.B."

 

[SumnerRain]

I have skimmed this, so please forgive me if I repeat what others say. I think a HUGE reason why all these kids are adopted is a bonding issue. When you adopt a child, especially an older child, you don't have the same hormonal response to the child and there CAN be a big disconnect. It is very possible these kids have reactive attachment disorder (RAD), which happens when babies fail to bond in infancy to their caregivers.

Common signs and symptoms of reactive attachment disorder

An aversion to touch and physical affection. Children with reactive attachment disorder often flinch, laugh, or even say “Ouch” when touched. Rather than producing positive feelings, touch and affection are perceived as a threat.
Control issues. Most children with reactive attachment disorder go to great lengths to remain in control and avoid feeling helpless. They are often disobedient, defiant, and argumentative.
Anger problems. Anger may be expressed directly, in tantrums or acting out, or through manipulative, passive-aggressive behavior. Children with reactive attachment disorder may hide their anger in socially acceptable actions, like giving a high five that hurts or hugging someone too hard.
Difficulty showing genuine care and affection. For example, children with reactive attachment disorder may act inappropriately affectionate with strangers while displaying little or no affection towards their parents.
An underdeveloped conscience. Children with reactive attachment disorder may act like they don’t have a conscience and fail to show guilt, regret, or remorse after behaving badly.

So while I don't think these kids are "bad", it could be that the methods in the book were not working, or they showed the symptoms above and the "discipline" methods were intensified. Also consider these MAY be families adopting children to appease their moral compass to rescue needy children, sort of like a personal mission, and their bond with a difficult child may make them disconnected from the child. (Kind of like the step-parent/child relationship in SOME families).

Edited to clarify: I do NOT feel any of these parents are justified. I was trying to find a common link on why more adopted children are murdered. For these parents to read this book and NOT want to burn it, but to follow it, is scary indeed.

 

[Norwegian]

I understand very well what all of you are saying, all the reasons etc. Cultural differences, bonding, personalities etc.

Still, I don't really care - there's been torture, abuse, murder.

I've always despised adoptive parents giving their child back, but now I think I have to explore that action as a loving and caring act, after all.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I understand very well what all of you are saying, all the reasons etc. Cultural differences, bonding, personalities etc.

Still, I don't really care - there's been torture, abuse, murder.

I've always despised adoptive parents giving their child back, but now I think I have to explore that action as a loving and caring act, after all.

Excellent post. I agree with you: while "taking the baby back" might sound heartless, it is certainly more honest than this sh.... :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[gitana1]

More about Hana's case and the abuse of Ethiopian adoptees:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=t8S9rp14YomMfuW3A_x-tA&bvm=bv.56643336,d.cGE

 

[hambirg]

I understand very well what all of you are saying, all the reasons etc. Cultural differences, bonding, personalities etc.

Still, I don't really care - there's been torture, abuse, murder.

I've always despised adoptive parents giving their child back, but now I think I have to explore that action as a loving and caring act, after all.

+1

No matter these children's issues, there is something defective in these parents. These weren't infants who were shaken in a moment of some type of overwhelming melt down, by an otherwise loving parent. These were kids.

It takes a special kind of dysfunction to abuse a child to death. I'd like to believe that most people have some kind of switch in their brain, no matter their level of stress or anger, that would give them pause before actually killing a child. . . some little voice that says, "Hey, wait a minute. This isn't working."

I find the question of what these parents have in common more interesting than what these adopted children may have had in common. It's the parents' dysfunction that causes this, IMHO.

ETA-It seems these parents were all some type of fundamentalist Christian, Quiver fold types, right? Is it possible that they are so used to being told what to do and think, in the name of being obedient themselves, that they manage to somehow suppress their instincts? We know this kind of abuse happens with parents who use drugs, but it doesn't appear to be the issue in these cases, yet the outcome is the same. Why? Where is their human instinct that would compel them to stop?

 

[oh_gal]

They are not Christians.. please stop calling them that..

People who believe in God do not practice this torture on children.

(above bbm)
Sadly, there are all kinds of people in this world, who, due to a skewed mind, believe wholeheartedly in God, yet practice behavior like this.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

+1
ETA-It seems these parents were all some type of fundamentalist Christian, Quiver fold types, right? Is it possible that they are so used to being told what to do and think, in the name of being obedient themselves, that they manage to somehow suppress their instincts? We know this kind of abuse happens with parents who use drugs, but it doesn't appear to be the issue in these cases, yet the outcome is the same. Why? Where is their human instinct that would compel them to stop?

RSBM

Here is an article written by a woman who used the Pearl method until she managed to get out of her abusive marriage:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolong...a-child-reacts-to-the-death-of-hana-williams/

She says: "Why didn’t I stop [my ex-husband]? I finally did, but early in my marriage I was paralyzed by fear and brainwashed by bad teaching. We both feared raising ungodly kids."

Please note this is posted on a site that is for people who left the Quiverful movement and other survivors of spiritual abuse. I only offer the article because IMO it gives a little insight.

 

[hambirg]

RSBM

Here is an article written by a woman who used the Pearl method until she managed to get out of her abusive marriage:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolong...a-child-reacts-to-the-death-of-hana-williams/

She says: "Why didn’t I stop [my ex-husband]? I finally did, but early in my marriage I was paralyzed by fear and brainwashed by bad teaching. We both feared raising ungodly kids."

Please note this is posted on a site that is for people who left the Quiverful movement and other survivors of spiritual abuse. I only offer the article because IMO it gives a little insight.

Thanks, that was very interesting. And it addresses what I was getting at. .

At some point, a loving parent with some sense and a conscience will stop inflicting more pain. This is what Pearl believes, or at least one would hope this is what he believes. This isn’t what he teaches.

That's the part I just don't get. It is a tragedy that people are reading this book and actually trying to follow Pearl's advice. They need some re-education, IMHO.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

That's the part I just don't get. It is a tragedy that people are reading this book and actually trying to follow Pearl's advice. They need some re-education, IMHO.

RSBM

Unfortunately, education is the enemy to many religious groups where Pearl is popular. Google "theonomy" or "christian patriarchy". Once you get to the point where you believe we should revert to Abrahamic law (public stonings, etc.), schools must be abolished, and you're on the fence about whether slavery should be reinstated, well, Pearl's teachings won't sound too far out there.

But imagine what it is to be raised in a closed environment like that. Just to even question what you're told is terribly frightening. It's a vicious circle of the abused growing up to be abusers. I'm trying to tread lightly here so as not to offend others' beliefs, so if I've caused offense I apologize.

My heart breaks for the three young lives that were lost (so far) because of Pearl's "method". :rose: My heart aches for those children who are living it daily.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

(above bbm)
Sadly, there are all kinds of people in this world, who, due to a skewed mind, believe wholeheartedly in God, yet practice behavior like this.

Just because you believe in him does not make you a Christian. Walking the world, being a good example of him does.

I don't have an issue with spanking as a rule. I think used correctly and sparingly over all it helps. But I also believe that discipline is not about pain but redirection and raising up a good child.

This book teaches abuse plain and simple. Anyone who would use it on their child should be punished themselves..

 

[HMSHood]

+1

No matter these children's issues, there is something defective in these parents. These weren't infants who were shaken in a moment of some type of overwhelming melt down, by an otherwise loving parent. These were kids.

It takes a special kind of dysfunction to abuse a child to death. I'd like to believe that most people have some kind of switch in their brain, no matter their level of stress or anger, that would give them pause before actually killing a child. . . some little voice that says, "Hey, wait a minute. This isn't working."

I find the question of what these parents have in common more interesting than what these adopted children may have had in common. It's the parents' dysfunction that causes this, IMHO.

ETA-It seems these parents were all some type of fundamentalist Christian, Quiver fold types, right? Is it possible that they are so used to being told what to do and think, in the name of being obedient themselves, that they manage to somehow suppress their instincts? We know this kind of abuse happens with parents who use drugs, but it doesn't appear to be the issue in these cases, yet the outcome is the same. Why? Where is their human instinct that would compel them to stop?

I would not be surprised if abuse by parents plays a role in children being bullies. Abuse is a vicious cycle.

I have noticed many criminals tend to be abused by their parents. I also notice more so if the parents are extremely religious. I am not in any way suggesting religion causes crime. The extreme religion severely represses people because they cannot do this or that. I understand there has to be standards and morals, but it goes extreme. The severe repression makes their urges stronger, which can turn extreme.

http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/psychoanalysis/freud3.html

 

[Sheromom]

(above bbm)
Sadly, there are all kinds of people in this world, who, due to a skewed mind, believe wholeheartedly in God, yet practice behavior like this.

Oh yea! And elder from my church offered me his belt to beat my then two year old with for crying. Haven't been back for 19 years.....she is 21.

 

[Sheromom]

I would not be surprised if abuse by parents plays a role in children being bullies. Abuse is a vicious cycle.

I have noticed many criminals tend to be abused by their parents. I also notice more so if the parents are extremely religious. I am not in any way suggesting religion causes crime. The extreme religion severely represses people because they cannot do this or that. I understand there has to be standards and morals, but it goes extreme. The severe repression makes their urges stronger, which can turn extreme.

http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/psychoanalysis/freud3.html

Not so sure. I was horridly abused and have four lovely and well-adjusted adult children who are raising really good grands. Never, EVER felt the urge to pass on that legacy to my kids. In fact, the moment I met them, INSTINCT alone would have led me to protect them. I tend to think that if you are an adult, there is just NO excuse. Not that I think you are trying to excuse them but rather just to make a point. Just not sure I agree with your point.

 

[HMSHood]

Not so sure. I was horridly abused and have four lovely and well-adjusted adult children who are raising really good grands. Never, EVER felt the urge to pass on that legacy to my kids. In fact, the moment I met them, INSTINCT alone would have led me to protect them. I tend to think that if you are an adult, there is just NO excuse. Not that I think you are trying to excuse them but rather just to make a point. Just not sure I agree with your point.

What I am saying is that people who are abused have a history of being abused. Does it always happen? No. Some people who have no history of being abused end up being abusers. I am in NO way making any excuses for their behavior in any shape and form.

Some people choose to become consumed by rage that it eats them up. They act like overgrown children trapped in adult bodies.