Too many clues

[madeleine]

you know what's interesting about this case to me?sometimes I feel he totally manipulates her,sometimes I feel it's the other way around,weird,cause in other cases you can tell exactly who the brain is....
there is something else I never sae before when following a case.....these two don't seem like two separate people most of the time.....they are just......"he PACK"........sometimes it's like their personalities are gone and it's just them as the couple......

edit: "the pack"

 

[claudicici]

I totally agree.
I just saw the interview Agatha posted on the Media thread and I never saw that one before.
JR just keeps talking and talking.PR is quiet.
Everytime he's asked about JonBenet he brings up Beth.He doesn't say anyting about JonBenet.
He talks about his favorite Job bible story again.He almost seems happy and excited that he gets to talk and talk.
It's Patsy's last interview.Her left eye looks swollen.Almost looks like he hit her before the interview and told her to let him do the talking.She lies to the audience and tells them JonBenet was only in one pageant over one weekend and there were a lot of costume changes.She tells the audience how much she loves Christmas but not how she loves Jon Benet.
In this interview JR seems to have her under control and seems to lead.
...and they seem strangely "unreal" to me all the time....like bad actors playing a role...

 

[Steely]

Like I mentioned, Steely, I didn’t know about the phone in the basement until recently, and had never heard it mentioned. I know it wasn’t the point you were trying to make in your post, but since you did bring it up...

I know it always baffled me, as it did others, that the supposed “unsuccessful hang-up” could go unnoticed by Patsy after placing the 911-call for obvious reasons. Phones which can be used as either (wall phone or table-top) have a small piece of plastic (usually) which is turned or flipped appropriately for how it is used. If it is on the wall, this piece of plastic is what holds the receiver in place and keeps it from falling off. If it is on a table or desk, the piece of plastic is turned so it doesn’t interfere with removing the receiver.

My reason for pointing this out is that it is what makes me think now that the 911-call had to have been placed from the basement (or possibly some other phone somewhere else). It couldn’t have been made from a wall phone because of these reasons. If Patsy didn’t hang up the wall phone enough to disconnect the connection, nothing would have been keeping the receiver in place and it would have fallen to the countertop.

Further, if that reasoning is correct, it goes to why they would “say” that the call was placed from the kitchen -- if they admitted they were in the basement, it proves their guilt.

Did I explain that so it makes sense?
.

Aha! Yes! I thought I was in your cross-hairs. LOL. Do you know where all the other NON-wall phones were in the house? I'd like to see that mapped out, wouldn't you? I also wondered if they had more than one line to the house. Did LE ever test that phone to see if they could replicate a false-hang-up, do you know? I'd also want to check to see if that phone had been re-called or had customer complaints about false hang-ups. I haven't had a wall phone for years but I remember having ours off the hook slightly a few times. Different type though...old school phone, for sure.

 

[Steely]

I've posted my theory in the theory thread.After everything I read I basically believe PR's decision was motivated by her religious believes.She saw JonBenet almost like a Jesus,a Redeemer ...I believe PR was abused herself as a child and when she found out JonBenet was going through the same thing she went over the edge.In the bible "ransom" is the price or payment made for our redemption, as when it is said that the Son of man "gave his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28; Comp. Acts 20 )
I believe she sacrificed JonBenet so JonBenet could return to being the perfect angel...and she knew she would reunite with her soon.Victory.Saved by the Cross.

Because of the "Victory S.B.T.C." the religious aspect crossed my mind too.

Because of PR's cancer, I wonder if she didn't want her kids to grow up without her (did she suspect who their stepmother might end up being?) ...so that triggered PR to want to have her VICTORY on CHRISTMAS and she planned so they could ALL go to heaven (Saved by the Cross...on Christmas) together. Maybe she planned to kill the WHOLE family and end it with her own suicide ...but when PR went to choke JB who she thought was asleep in her bed...JB wasn't really asleep yet...she was faking because she'd been playing Nintendo with Burke...So JB screamed when she saw the rope but before PR could finish choking her with the ROPE which left FIBERS in her bed...Burke dropped his NINTENDO controller and came running in. That's my PR "inscribe JB's bracelet with her death date but give it to her early so you can see it on her while she is still alive" theory. For this scenario, I think PR fixed JB's hair so it would look good before she put her to bed so it would look good when JB died and maybe to make it easier. (suspicious of intent for PILLOWS in this scenario too...)

I also wondered if PR was mentally ill with something like that Munchausen by Proxy where a parent deliberately hurts their child to get attention for themselves. That idea popped into my head when I read about all JB's doctor visits although the doctor said it wasn't an unusual amount of visits...it sure sounded like it to me. I'll have to look that up.

Here's my PR Santa Scenario. I speculated a scenario where PR tells her BEFORE Christmas..."Santa is coming after Christmas with a special present for you!" And then that night PR dressed up in the Santa suit, snuck in her room with that BLACK FLASHLIGHT and brought that Santa Bear to JB and had a KNIFE (the paring knife found in the laundry, wasn't it?) to her throat and she was planning to STAGE an attempted abduction (visit her in the night...in dim light...give her the bear...and leave her alive but VERY frightened. And when she SCREAMED, PR hit he over the head with the flashlight quite a bit too hard. That too would have made headlines...Beauty Queen nearly abducted by "Santa." PR's comments about that Santa Bear triggered this whole scenario.

 

[otg]

Aha! Yes! I thought I was in your cross-hairs. LOL. Do you know where all the other NON-wall phones were in the house? I'd like to see that mapped out, wouldn't you? I also wondered if they had more than one line to the house. Did LE ever test that phone to see if they could replicate a false-hang-up, do you know? I'd also want to check to see if that phone had been re-called or had customer complaints about false hang-ups. I haven't had a wall phone for years but I remember having ours off the hook slightly a few times. Different type though...old school phone, for sure.

No, no, no, Steely. You weren’t in my cross-hairs. You simply brought up the subject of the phone, which I felt was important.

The hang-up was (I think) first mentioned in Steve Thomas’s book, IRMI. Maybe it was brought up in the tabs, I’m not sure. Regardless, it was reported along with the alleged conversation afterward in numerous news reports. But the details of how it happened has never been addressed, except in the forums; and even then, it was simply questioned how the receiver stayed in place without ending the connection. I think the basement phone provides the answer to that; and further, that if it was used to place the 911-call, it implicates the Ramseys in the cover-up. And if they were in the basement when the 911-call was made, and if Burke's voice proves his presence during the call...

One more thing I should mention here: If the little plastic “tab” is not turned for use on a desktop when it is being used there instead of on a wall, it makes it more likely that a receiver won’t be seated correctly in the receiver well -- and hence, not end the connection.
.

 

[otg]

Aha! Yes! I thought I was in your cross-hairs. LOL. Do you know where all the other NON-wall phones were in the house? I'd like to see that mapped out, wouldn't you? I also wondered if they had more than one line to the house. Did LE ever test that phone to see if they could replicate a false-hang-up, do you know? I'd also want to check to see if that phone had been re-called or had customer complaints about false hang-ups. I haven't had a wall phone for years but I remember having ours off the hook slightly a few times. Different type though...old school phone, for sure.

(Oh, yeah, forgot that part.)

I understood they did have a separate line for dial-up internet connection.

Don't know what kind of testing LE did to replicate the circumstances.

Anyone?
.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I like your theory of the phone in the basement being used for the 911 call. Add to that JR's surprise when he starts reading that note (while PR is on 911 call) and I'm thinking that JR surely thought he would die of a heart attack. I believe she wrote the note while he was doing the staging. I would have pegged JR for being smarter than that, though. Turning her loose on that rn was either the dumbest or the smartest thing he did that night. It was just crazy enough to force a jury to consider "reasonable doubt". All these years later I don't think reasonable doubt would play into a trial, but I also don't believe there will ever be a trial.

 

[otg]

I like your theory of the phone in the basement being used for the 911 call. Add to that JR's surprise when he starts reading that note (while PR is on 911 call) and I'm thinking that JR surely thought he would die of a heart attack. I believe she wrote the note while he was doing the staging. I would have pegged JR for being smarter than that, though. Turning her loose on that rn was either the dumbest or the smartest thing he did that night. It was just crazy enough to force a jury to consider "reasonable doubt". All these years later I don't think reasonable doubt would play into a trial, but I also don't believe there will ever be a trial.

I think that's about the best statement about the wisdom of having her write the RN I've read, Beck.
.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I think that's about the best statement about the wisdom of having her write the RN I've read, Beck.
.

What I wouldn't give for a photo of JR's face as he read that note! Being the intelligent, savvy businessman that he was, that photo would be priceless!

 

[otg]

I’ve been trying (unsuccessfully) to find that exact model of phone in the above pics to find out what all the buttons are for, and see if it might be for the different lines going to the house. I’m not a telephone expert or anything, but I do know the difference between a “butt set” and a “beige box”.

It does seem to be very similar to many models of “4-line business phones”, which can be used for as many as four separate lines, and usually have an intercom feature for communications between different rooms. This would be useful in a large house, and it would make sense, considering that the two phones (basement and kitchen) look to be the same model.

Just some more information to consider, or it may be that this just goes along with the theme of this thread of “Too many clues”.
.

 

[madeleine]

I totally agree.
I just saw the interview Agatha posted on the Media thread and I never saw that one before.
JR just keeps talking and talking.PR is quiet.
Everytime he's asked about JonBenet he brings up Beth.He doesn't say anyting about JonBenet.
He talks about his favorite Job bible story again.He almost seems happy and excited that he gets to talk and talk.
It's Patsy's last interview.Her left eye looks swollen.Almost looks like he hit her before the interview and told her to let him do the talking.She lies to the audience and tells them JonBenet was only in one pageant over one weekend and there were a lot of costume changes.She tells the audience how much she loves Christmas but not how she loves Jon Benet.
In this interview JR seems to have her under control and seems to lead.
...and they seem strangely "unreal" to me all the time....like bad actors playing a role...

the one with the hawaiian pastor?he almost pushes her off the couch in that one like he wants her out of there.......

I realized we don't know these people at all.....we've seen only what their lawyers and publ.rel people wanted us to see (and advized them to TRY to show)

I find it so strange that they never said anything about what JB's last words were for example.....what she said in the car that night before she fell asleep....what she was like that day and I mean happy things.....I don't even know who the last person was she said something to....they don't talk about her like other parents do......all we've heard was a script.

I don't see emotions,love,anger,nothing,they are so indifferent most of the times.

 

[joeskidbeck]

The part that really cinched it for me was both of them saying that JonBenet was the only one who could rightfully forgive her murderer. Enough said.

 

[Becky319]

You see I can't follow that logic. If as you believe, she wrote all the threats, why then would she then deliberately ignore them?

Don't you think it would have been an excuse to say, hold off until the next morning? That way, they could have gotten rid of the body and all the 'evidence' that PP and BR was supposed to secreted out of the house, and therefore keep it just between themselves. Call the cops the next day and say, we did what they said, but they didn't call us to deliver the ransom. Then the cops have to find JBR, (that could take weeks/months) and by that time, all the evidence, if any, would have been harder to trace back to them.

Hi MurriFlower. I think the ransom note was written for the soul purpose of getting the police to think it was a kidnapping, period. If the Ramsey's were involved in JB's death (I think they are) it was wise of them not to move the body out of the house as you risk being seen by neighbors, by surveillance cameras at stores along the route you took, dna left in your vehicle, being seen dumping the body, returning home. Stuffing a size 6 girl's panty, a roll of tape, some rope into something and carrying it out of the house is a lot easier than getting a child out without being seen. They had to keep a certain timeline because they had a pilot waiting on them and more importantly their other kids meeting them at an airport en route to Michigan. Writing the ransom note turned out to be a good move for them, sent the cops in the wrong direction from the get go, friends, John, police running amok all over the house and yard ruining evidence left and right. I think they got the exact results they wanted with the ransom note.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

You see I can't follow that logic. If as you believe, she wrote all the threats, why then would she then deliberately ignore them?

Don't you think it would have been an excuse to say, hold off until the next morning? That way, they could have gotten rid of the body and all the 'evidence' that PP and BR was supposed to secreted out of the house, and therefore keep it just between themselves. Call the cops the next day and say, we did what they said, but they didn't call us to deliver the ransom. Then the cops have to find JBR, (that could take weeks/months) and by that time, all the evidence, if any, would have been harder to trace back to them.

That would probably have been more sensible, except they would have been thinking with less than clear heads. And there was the matter of the trip out of town first thing in the morning, so their perceived time frame for action was rather small.

As for the fact that she deliberately ignored the threats...that's precisely one of the reasons I believe she DID write the note. She KNEW the threats were bogus, and so did John. If they'd read all those threats and thought their child's life depended on their actions, more likely they would have followed the note to the letter, with the exception of notifying the police and making very sure the 911 operator knew that the note stressed no police.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

The part that really cinched it for me was both of them saying that JonBenet was the only one who could rightfully forgive her murderer. Enough said.

Erin Runnion said that the only person who could forgive Alejandro Avila was Samantha. I don't really see anything wrong with the statement that only JBR could forgive her killer. I know you're looking at it like they can't forgive JBR's killer because they are the killers, and yes that might very well the reason, but I'm not going to use that quote to further prove their guilt. And if the R's did they say that they forgave JBR's killer, people would be saying that they're only saying that to take suspicion off them/prove the intruder theory more. The whole forgiveness issue just isn't strong enough for me to use it as something that helps to prove guilt or innocence. I can think of why a guilty person would say they forgive or don't forgive the killer (aka themselves) or why an innocent person would say they forgive or don't forgive the killer.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Actually, I'm not using that statement to mean they are guilty. I am very much agreeing with them on that statement. JonBenet knows what happened that night and she knows whether or not is was "forgivable", none of us do.

 

[Agatha_C]

Take a good look at this picture. Does it look to you, like both sides of the bed had been slept in? It doesn't look that way to me... No indent on the pillow to the right.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Out of curiosity, Agatha, do you think JR may not have been involved at all till the next morning when PR woke him up with her fantastic rn? That would definately put a new spin on things for me. And would point to a much younger culprit as well. Either that or this whole shebang was Patsy, Patsy, Patsy.

 

[joeskidbeck]

If the latter is the case, I hate to think of the night from He11 that Patsy must have faced alone. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, that kind of terror and desperation.

 

[Agatha_C]

Beck,

I'm thinking he wasn't involved until it was to late for him do anything but go along (only when it pertains to the killing and the first staging). As for all the other aspects of what took place before and after, well, he was in so deep he had to wear waders.