Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[Trooper]

The world knows he guilty, the evidence is overwhelming, so why embarrass themselves by calling everyone else liars. It reeks of desperation. Maybe it's just a different system in SA but wow. Makes me forget about any plans of travel outside the US. The thought of ever being caught up in a crime, like Amanda Knox, outside the US is terrifying.

od course..its possible to be executed in the USA and be innocent of the crime... something that doesn't happen in many countries, South Africa included...

 

[Trooper]

Does anyone know if he actually even plays cricket?

I find it very believable that he could have the cricket bed under his bed for extra protection. He seemed to be very paranoid.

He probably, like a lot of South African blokes, has a bit of a bash in the park.. he is not a player in the competitive sense at all. Having a cricket bat in and of itself is not a matter of suspicion for about 2 billion people all across the globe for whom cricket is life and death, its the matter of him having it so handy for the purpose he rendered it in his zeal to help Reeva.

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks. In the US, most of the time you don't need a key to unlock the door from the inside. But I know that in places like Europe and I see now that in South Africa, too, the door is unlocked with a key.

Did the investigators do any fingerprint tests on the door? To see if she had tried to open it?

I noticed the toilet door didn't have a catch, but an old fashioned keyhole lock. The key wasn't in it though. It made me think that if Reeva had locked herself in and then removed the key, Oscar could have seen through that keyhole right to where she was killed. His shots were very accurate, for someone shooting 'blind' through a door.

But then, if the key was removed and in Reeva's hand, how did he get the door open?

 

[zwiebel]

I'd like to know what building regs are like in SA. What would the construction of the interior walls be like in that apartment? That could be a clue in what could be heard from one room to the next.

If they are hollow or paper thin, it would be difficult to understand why Reeva wouldn't have heard him dragging himself towards the door.

 

[whiterum]

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but did Roux say which window was closed at the time? I thought there was some confusion over OP saying the bathroom window was open, and Roux saying it was closed. But here, he's admitting it was open but says the toilet window was closed.

The BBC's Andrew Harding in court says the defence line was clear that as
Ms Steenkamp was in a closed toilet with a closed window, the screams the witness said she heard could not have come from her.

Mr Pistorius was in the bathroom where the window was open so the screams must have come from him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26432447

How does he know the toilet cubicle window was not also open at the time Reeva was shot. How on earth could he know for sure that it was not closed after the shooting and before police arrived at the scene. OP and others had ample time to open and close whatever they saw fit.

 

[HauntsForHope]

od course..its possible to be executed in the USA and be innocent of the crime... something that doesn't happen in many countries, South Africa included...

With DNA evidence now I would think we got a handle on that problem. But if you'r really worried about it then be sure to stay in these states, where there is no death penalty:

Alaska (1957)
Connecticut** (2012)
Hawaii (1957)
Illinois (2011)
Iowa (1965)
Maine (1887)
Maryland*** (2013)
Massachusetts (1984)
Michigan (1846)
Minnesota (1911)
New Jersey (2007)
New Mexico* (2009)
New York (2007)#
North Dakota (1973)
Rhode Island (1984)^
Vermont (1964) West Virginia (1965)
Wisconsin (1853)
Dist. of Columbia (1981)

And stay out of these states that still execute:
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Washington
Wyoming

 

[Trooper]

How does he know the toilet cubicle window was not also open at the time Reeva was shot. How on earth could he know for sure that it was not closed after the shooting and before police arrived at the scene. OP and others had ample time to open and close whatever they saw fit.

precisely.... and it was high summer, too.

 

[whiterum]

It is noteworthy that both Mrs Burger and her husband could not have known that the 4th shot was the head shot, yet they both spoke of the last scream they heard from the women as having died out about two seconds after or on the sound of the last shot. So IMO what they both heard is consistent with the evidence.

 

[aa9511]

I noticed the toilet door didn't have a catch, but an old fashioned keyhole lock. The key wasn't in it though. It made me think that if Reeva had locked herself in and then removed the key, Oscar could have seen through that keyhole right to where she was killed. His shots were very accurate, for someone shooting 'blind' through a door.

But then, if the key was removed and in Reeva's hand, how did he get the door open?

I wish she had huddled down in the space between the wall and the toilet on the side farthest from the door. Of course, like you said, he could have looked through the keyhole and then shot her in her back or in her head from the front.

 

[zwiebel]

Second tweet from the top is interesting, about the exchange between Oscar and one of his lawyers, I thought.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SmithInAfrica

 

[SallyLu]

I love Websleuths experiments! Are we keeping track of them from over the years?

Excuse my typing, I've hurt my hand. See photos.

My (most unscientific) experiment was a failure but also a small success.

Failed because
I couldn't find the bat or the cricketer so used a heavy lump of wood myself.
And could barely make a dent, let alone break the solid wood door.

Success because
I took the dog with me. Dog who is totally, totally allergic petrified and terrified of gunshots, fireworks, even just the smell is enough to send him racing for safety.

He sat there happily while I tried to demolish that door. It sounded nothing like a gunshot to him. Case closed for me.

 

[Trooper]

With DNA evidence now I would think we got a handle on that problem. But if you'r really worried about it then be sure to stay in these states, where there is no death penalty:

thanks for the info.. I see a preponderance of states still adhere to the medieval practice... think I'll skip it in its entirety... I see that in the USA it takes years , and a specially organized group of lawyers working pro bono to work year in year out to get the DNA testing on appeal thru the Supreme court for an appeal on those grounds.. some don't make it, .. Texas seems to be awfully keen to execute even with the appeal for DNA testing in the pipeline.. no comin back from the dead for Texas, ey?

 

[zwiebel]

I noticed from the video linked earlier, prosecution are saying they believe Oscar had his prosthetic legs on when he shot Reeva. If they could prove that with his footprints in her blood it would really damage his case.

Sadly though, it appears the crime scene blood was walked through by a detective. Pretty shocking - who would step in blood even if it wasn't a crime scene?

(Graphic pics)
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/05/31/graphic-photos-of-oscar-pistorius-crime-scene-leaked/

 

[Trooper]

I don't think anyone in South Africa would mistake a cricket bat thunk for gunshot.. this was a fanciful concept for Mr Roux.. it had no logic to it. I suppose he had to try it on , but it would have been met with general disbelief.

That cricket bat is like the dog that didn't bark , to me..

 

[Trooper]

because I think the cricket bat was used to hit Reeva before she hid and locked herself in the toilet.. it was already in the bedroom.. just where, Oscar hasn't said, .. 'laying in the bedroom'. bit vague..

 

[zwiebel]

I wish she had huddled down in the space between the wall and the toilet on the side farthest from the door. Of course, like you said, he could have looked through the keyhole and then shot her in her back or in her head from the front.

From the blood splatter on the seat, I think she may have been trying to do just that when she was shot. I still think it's odd a person would aim at where the toilet was when thinking an intruder was in there.

It also seems like there were only two bulletholes in the door. Could that explain the pause between shots? Oscar maybe fired once, then looked through the hole it made to get a view of where the 'intruder' was?

 

[zwiebel]

because I think the cricket bat was used to hit Reeva before she hid and locked herself in the toilet.. it was already in the bedroom.. just where, Oscar hasn't said, .. 'laying in the bedroom'. bit vague..

I thought the post mortem found no other injuries except the bullet wounds?

 

[Trooper]

maybe he lunged a her with it .. I just cannot see a cricket bat 'laying in the bedroom'. along with his prosthetic legs, his shoes, her clothes, his clothes.. I think that bat was there as part of the process of violence towards Reeva before the shots were fired... bruising from the shot would be extensive, and if he whacked her with it just before, the bruising would be indistinguishable..


I guess, I just find the bat to be an event, a part of the process that has more to do with the whole events leading up to the shooting as well as after..not just an accidental tool to break down a locked door. After firing 4 shots into it.

 

[Trooper]

an accidental AND highly convenient tool..

 

[SallyLu]

Those bullet holes do not look low to me and the damage to the door would be hard to make if hit from below - meaning without his prosthetic legs on.

I also think that with all the tile in the bathroom and toilet areas it would magnify the screams.