Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
The long and the short of it, in my opinion, is that OP was at no time under any direct threat from this 'intruder'. OP had the gun and the 'intruder' was safely locked in the toilet. He could have kept the gun pointed at the door and screamed for Reeva to wake up. He didn't wait for her to 'wake' up. At all times he had the upper hand and wasn't in any imminent danger. Of course, he couldn't have screamed for Reeva to wake up when he knew she was the one he was shooting at. Much as I'd like to keep an open mind, nothing makes any logical sense. Quite apart from the fact he'd had people stay over before and hadn't shot at anyone for going to the toilet or getting up and having a drink. They must have made noises too but didn't end up having 4 bullets pumped into them.
 
Why are there only two bullet holes? Did he fire through the first holes or something? And WHY would he do that, unless he had a specific place he was aiming at?

Maybe they're in the missing door panel?? I've wondered about the other 2 bullet holes, too.
 
By the time Oscar arms himself with the cricket bat, he has
(1) been subjected to a woman screaming ( Ms Burger)

(2). got his loaded gun

(3) fired off 4 shots into the toilet

(4) realizes he has shot someone in the toilet area, and that toilet door is locked

(5)..found , from somewhere. (but WHERE was it? ), a cricket bat to batter at the locked door .

Despite living in a high-security compound, Pistorius told an interviewer recently that he slept with a revolver by his bed, a baseball bat behind his door and a machinegun by the window.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-charge-star-athlete-to-appear-in-court.html

Tuesday 04 March 2013
The Telegraph
 
Kills his lover in a jealous rage on Valentines Day. JMO

"...the news that banned drugs were found in Pistorius's home may end up playing a major role in his trial—a line of argument by the prosecution or the defense.
The Sun, citing police sources, reported that steroids were found during a search of the house when officers arrived to find Reeva Steenkamp dead from gunshot wounds. The Daily Mirror adds that there were "boxes and boxes" of unopened steroids found in a drawer, in "every form possible" including pills and syringes. The Mirror claims Pistorius told police they weren't his, and he was just holding the PEDs for a friend."
http://deadspin.com/5985333/reports-boxes-and-boxes-of-steroids-found-in-oscar-pistoriuss-home

"BANNED steroid drugs were found in Oscar Pistorius’s house after he shot dead lover Reeva Steenkamp."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...rius-house-after-he-shot-Reeva-Steenkamp.html


"...anabolic steroids, when used in high doses, increase irritability and aggression. Some steroid abusers report that they have committed aggressive acts, such as physical fighting or armed robbery, theft, vandalism, or burglary. Abusers who have committed aggressive acts or property crimes generally report that they engage in these behaviors more often when they take steroids than when they are drug free."

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=141262&page=5#effects
 
At about 2.00 in this video here, he starts knocking in the cricket bat (hitting it with a wooden mallet). I can JUST about imagine how the sound of wood hitting wood from a distance, but much harder, might sound like a very, very faint gunshot.
http://youtu.be/NXmEyxqzVUc


At about 1.40 here they start hitting the ball and this is the only sound I've managed to find that I really could easily mistake for a gunshot. But they're in a big, echoey room and the bat's hitting a leather ball - or are cricket balls made of leather coated wood? I'm ashamed to say I don't know.
http://youtu.be/rciPdOo0VOg

TY for these two videos!

In the 2nd one, where the person is hitting the ball, it does sound a bit like gunshots.

Since cricket balls are made of a core of cork, covered with a layer of tightly wound string, then a leather case, I'm skeptical that a cricket bat striking a wooden door would produce a similar sound.

I thought the sound in the first video where the guy was "knocking in" the bat with a wooden mallet didn't resemble the sound of gunshots at all. I think this sound would perhaps resemble the bat striking the wooden toilet door more so than the cricket bat striking the ball.

Great find for comparison's sake.
 
Second tweet from the top is interesting, about the exchange between Oscar and one of his lawyers, I thought.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SmithInAfrica

As OP was leaving the dock, he spoke with Lawyer, Ian Levitt, and OP looked angry so Levitt went quiet.

So was that why OP was late back to the court after lunch? IMO OP looked very worried yesterday.

IMO I think that the Defence has been assuring OP all this time that they will be able to discredit the witnesses and he will get off but I think now the trial is in progress that OP is not so sure.

When OP was late back from lunch, I thought he could have done a runner!
 
Kills his lover in a jealous rage on Valentines Day. JMO

"...the news that banned drugs were found in Pistorius's home may end up playing a major role in his trial—a line of argument by the prosecution or the defense.
The Sun, citing police sources, reported that steroids were found during a search of the house when officers arrived to find Reeva Steenkamp dead from gunshot wounds. The Daily Mirror adds that there were "boxes and boxes" of unopened steroids found in a drawer, in "every form possible" including pills and syringes. The Mirror claims Pistorius told police they weren't his, and he was just holding the PEDs for a friend."
http://deadspin.com/5985333/reports-boxes-and-boxes-of-steroids-found-in-oscar-pistoriuss-home

"BANNED steroid drugs were found in Oscar Pistorius’s house after he shot dead lover Reeva Steenkamp."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...rius-house-after-he-shot-Reeva-Steenkamp.html


"...anabolic steroids, when used in high doses, increase irritability and aggression. Some steroid abusers report that they have committed aggressive acts, such as physical fighting or armed robbery, theft, vandalism, or burglary. Abusers who have committed aggressive acts or property crimes generally report that they engage in these behaviors more often when they take steroids than when they are drug free."

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=141262&page=5#effects

There were no steroids in his blood or urine. That was a little PR lie by the original police investigator who was so gung ho to get Pistorius that he stated his hopes and speculations as facts. He was fired and has conceded that he made mistakes in the investigation, including walking through the crime scene without protective foot covers and hoarding the bullet-riddled door on the floor of his office rather than in a locked evidence room..
 
I noticed from the video linked earlier, prosecution are saying they believe Oscar had his prosthetic legs on when he shot Reeva. If they could prove that with his footprints in her blood it would really damage his case.

Sadly though, it appears the crime scene blood was walked through by a detective. Pretty shocking - who would step in blood even if it wasn't a crime scene?

(Graphic pics)
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/05/31/graphic-photos-of-oscar-pistorius-crime-scene-leaked/

I have never had the impression that Botha actually stepped in the blood. IMO it was OP who stepped in the blood by picking RS up and taking her down the stairs.
 
Did anyone heard about this today ? :confused: (as I mentioned before I couldn't follow any live stream)

I read the updates given at WS and a lot of tweets but never before found this information


According to the defence, the first bullet fired by Pistorius struck Steenkamp in the right thigh and the second missed her and instead lodged in the bathroom wall.

A third shot struck her in the shoulder, while the fourth struck her head.

It's understood there is a dispute between the parties as to the order of the bullets.

After the 4th shot, there was silence.

Three witnesses have now testified to hearing shots mingled with screams. Pistorius kept shooting until there was silence. Until he knew Steenkamp was dead. This goes to premeditation as he had enough time to stop shooting between the 1st and 4th [shot]. There is no way a judge will believe his story about not knowing who was behind the door. Even if it was an intruder, Pistorius has admitted to culpable homicide which is the equivalent of manslaughter. This alone carries a sentence of 15 years.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/588534367891803?stream_ref=10


This completely contradicts what was said at the bail hearing

Botha: Reeva shot on right side of head, in right hip and right elbow.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-21522052

REEVA Steenkamp suffered gunshot wounds to the head - above the right ear - hip and elbow, a shot which broke her arm, the Pretoria Magistrate's Court heard yesterday.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/02/20/updates-day-2-of-pistorius-bail-hearing

and it also completely contradicts what the pathologist of the DT (Perumal) said in an interview (at 24:26)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8TF4MrO8Q#t=1467
.
.
 
I think the cricket bat explanation from Roux was very quickly rubbished by Nel. Burger was asked to describe the timing of the bangs. She answered bang........ bang.bang.bang. It would have been impossible to swing the bat with enough power to break the door with only a second between each bang. One would need to swing the bat backwards some distance to provide enough force to break the door, this taking several seconds. For there to be virtually no gap between the bangs would mean that the bat could only have tapped the door, ie no time to swing the bat. Grave error in Roux's reasoning there. That will come back to haunt him.
 
because I think the cricket bat was used to hit Reeva before she hid and locked herself in the toilet.. it was already in the bedroom.. just where, Oscar hasn't said, .. 'laying in the bedroom'. bit vague..

I have often thought that OP had another motive for bashing the door down with the cricket bat. That is to confuse police as to where the bullet holes went through the door.

IMO OP knew she was dead due to her silence so he should not have tampered with the crime scene, phoned the police and left everything as it was. But unfortunately, criminals never do that and I guess they were able to put the door back together to examine the evidence.

Even though OP knew she was already dead, IMO he could have been given the idea from someone he phoned in the meantime, to carry RS body down the stairs pretending she was still alive to act like the hero, thus contaminating the crime scene on the way.

Of course, they then blamed Botha. Yes he hurried to the crime scene in the early hours of the morning and did not apparently wear the booties as they were out of them and he did not have time to get others. But IIRC he has not admitted to going into the bathroom without the booties. Surely he would have waited for the experts to arrive to do this. He was only seen downstairs without the booties IIRC.
 
I need to go over the original statement of OP from the bail hearing as it's been a long time since I read it but think I recall it went something like OP bashed door with bat, reached in for the key and unlocked the door. It was on the floor. In earlier discussions it was debated wether Reeva removed the key herself after locking it or it fell out the keyhole while OP was bashing it ( this is possible as we have the same kind of door and sometimes if it slams, the key pops out)

Here is his bail hearing affidavit:

I, the undersigned:

OSCAR LEONARD CARL PISTORIUS

do hereby make oath and state:

1. I am an adult male and a South African citizen with identity number 861122 5246 087.

2. I am the Applicant in this application in which I seek relief from this Honourable Court to be released on bail. I respectfully submit, as I will demonstrate herein, that the interests of justice permit my release on bail. In any event, the dictates of fairness and justice in view of the peculiar facts herein warrant that I should not be deprived of my liberty and that I should be released on bail.

3. I make this affidavit of my own free will and have not in any way been unduly influenced to depose thereto.

4. The facts herein contained, save where expressly indicated to the contrary, are within my personal knowledge and belief, and are both true and correct.

AD APPLICATION IN TERMS OF SECTION 60(11) OF ACT 51 OF 1977 (“the Act”)

5. The purpose of this affidavit is to provide the above Honourable Court with my personal circumstances and to address the allegations levelled against me (in so far as they are known to me), as well as to address the factors to be considered by the above Honourable Court as contained in Sections 60(4) to 60(9) of the Act.

6. I have been advised and I understand that I bear the burden to show that the interests of justice permit my release and that I am obliged to initiate this application. I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder, as I had no intention to kill my girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp (“Reeva”). However, I will put factors before the Honourable Court to show that it is in the interests of justice to permit my release on bail.

7. I state that the State will not be able to present any objective facts that I committed a planned or premeditated murder. For this reason I will hereunder deal with the events which occurred that evening. The objective facts will not refute my version as it is the truth.

PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES

8. I am a professional athlete and reside at 286 Silverwoods Estate, Silverlakes Drive, Silverlakes, Pretoria.

9. I was born on 22 November 1986, at Johannesburg. I have resided in the Republic of South Africa (“the RSA”) all my life, and although I frequently travel abroad to participate in international sporting events, I regard South Africa as my permanent place of abode. I have no intention to relocate to any other country as I love my country.

10. I own immovable assets in South Africa, which consist of the following:

10.1 The immovable property in which I currently reside, at 286 Silverwoods Estate, Silverlakes Drive, Silverlakes, Pretoria (“the residential premises”). This property is valued at approximately R5 million and is encumbered by a mortgage bond in the amount of approximately R2 million.

10.2 Two further immovable properties located within Weeping Willow Estates, Pretoria East, which properties have a combined value of approximately R1,6 million. Both properties are bonded to an aggregate value of approximately R1 million.

10.3 A vacant stand in Langebaan, Western Cape, which has a value of approximately R1,7 million. This property is not bonded.

11. I own movable assets comprised of household furniture and effects, motor vehicles and jewellery, which are valued in excess of R500 000,00.

12. My friends and family reside in the RSA, although I also have friends abroad.

13. My professional occupation currently provides me with an income of approximately R5,6 million per annum.

14. I have cash investments in excess of R1 million at various banks within the RSA.

15. I have never been convicted of any criminal offences either in the RSA or elsewhere. There are no outstanding cases, other than the present, being investigated against me by the South African Police Services (“SAPS”).

16. MERITS

16.1 My legal representatives have explained the provisions of Section 60(11) of the Act to me. I respectfully make the following submissions in this regard:

16.2 I have been informed that I am accused of having committed the offence of murder. I deny the aforesaid allegation in the strongest terms.

16.3 I am advised that I do not have to deal with the merits of the case for purposes of the bail application. However, I believe that it is appropriate to deal with the merits in this application, particularly in view of the State’s contention that I planned to murder Reeva. Nothing can be further from the truth and I have no doubt that it is not possible for the State to present objective facts to substantiate such an allegation, as there is no substance in the allegation. I do not know on what different facts the allegation of a premeditated murder could be premised and I respectfully request the State to furnish me with such alleged facts in order to allow me to refute such allegations.

16.4 On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home. By about 22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine’s Day but asked me only to open it the next day.

16.5 After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep.

16.6 I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

16.7 During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

16.8 I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.

16.9 I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.

16.10 I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

16.11 I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

16.12 It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

16.13 I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.

16.14 When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

16.15 I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

16.16 I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander”) who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.

16.17 I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.

16.18 I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva. With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in. I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved. I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out.

FLIGHT RISK

17. I will stand my trial should it proceed against me. I am a well-known international athlete and there is no possibility that I will even think of not standing my trial should there be one. I trust the South African legal system and that the facts will show that I did not murder Reeva.

18. In order to persuade the above Honourable Court that I should be released on bail, I provide the following additional facts and information in terms of Section 60 of the Act.

AD SECTION 60(4) (a), READ WITH SECTION 60(5) OF THE ACT

19. I do not know the identity of any witness upon whom the State will rely in order to attempt to prove a case against me. In any event, I have no intention to interfere with any witnesses as I have no cause to do so and I undertake not to do so.

20. I maintain good relationships with people and I bear no grudges against anyone.

21. As previously stated, I have no previous convictions and I have not been released on bail pending any charges.

22. I am not disposed to violence.

AD SECTION 60(4), READ WITH SECTION 60(6) OF THE ACT

23. I respectfully submit that the facts set out above support my contention that I do not constitute a flight risk.

24. I have two South African passports, the one is full. I need my passport to compete overseas but I am willing to surrender the passports to the investigating officer should it be a condition of bail. I am not in possession of any other travel documents and undertake not to apply for such documentation pending the finalisation of these proceedings.

25. After the shooting I did not attempt to flee. Rather, I accepted Stander would contact the police, and I remained at the scene.

26. I will be able to raise an appropriate amount to post as bail.

AD SECTION 60(4), READ WITH SECTION 60(7) OF THE ACT

27. I have no knowledge of any evidentiary material which may exist with regard to the allegations levelled against me. In any event, I believe that whatever such evidence may be, it is in the possession of the police; it is safely secured and I do not have access thereto. I undertake not to interfere with any further investigations.

28. I am not sure which witnesses the State will rely upon in order to attempt to prove its case against me. Nonetheless, I undertake not to communicate with any witness, whoever he or she may be, and any other persons whose names may appear on a list of “State witnesses”, to be provided by the State.

29. My continued incarceration can only prejudice me and creates no benefit to the State.

AD SECTION 60(4) (e), READ WITH SECTION 60(8A)

30. I respectfully submit that should I be released on bail, my release shall not disturb the public order or undermine the proper functioning of the criminal justice system.

GENERAL

31. I will comply with such conditions as the above Honourable Court may wish to impose.

32. I accordingly submit that the interests of justice, considerations of prejudice and the balancing of respective interests favour my release on bail.


Here is his court statement read the first day of trial:

"During the early hours of the morning I brought two fans in from the balcony.

"I had shortly before spoken to Reeva who was in bed beside me.

"Unbeknown to me, Reeva must have gone to the toilet in the bathroom at the time I brought in the fans, closed the sliding doors and drew the blinds and the curtains.

"I heard the bathroom window sliding open, I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window which was not fitted with burglar bars.

"I approached the bathroom armed with my firearm, so as to defend Reeva and I . At that time I believed Reeva was still in the bed.

"The discharging of my firearm was precipitated by a noise in the toilet which I, in my fearful state, knowing I was on my stumps, unable to run away or properly defend my self physically believed to be the intruder or intruders coming out of the toilet to attack Reeva and me.

"I respectfully believe the state has no basis for alleging that I wanted to take Reeva's life.".

I have not read the statements in their entirety - I'm about to do that - but wanted to go ahead and post them together so we could all compare and discuss. Sorry if this has already been posted.
 
There were no steroids in his blood or urine. That was a little PR lie by the original police investigator who was so gung ho to get Pistorius that he stated his hopes and speculations as facts. He was fired and has conceded that he made mistakes in the investigation, including walking through the crime scene without protective foot covers and hoarding the bullet-riddled door on the floor of his office rather than in a locked evidence room..

Yes, an herbal remedy:

....Testis compositum is marketed by some online retailers in both oral and injectable forms as a testosterone booster and sexual performance aid that contains the testicles, heart and embryo of pigs, among other ingredients. Some online retailers also say it can be used to treat fatigue......

http://espn.go.com/olympics/trackan...reps-say-substance-herbal-remedy-not-steroids
 

Despite living in a high-security compound, Pistorius told an interviewer recently that he slept with a revolver by his bed, a baseball bat behind his door and a machinegun by the window.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-charge-star-athlete-to-appear-in-court.html

Tuesday 04 March 2013
The Telegraph

Appreciate this, From Germany... I recall that article, and have often wondered if somewhere a mistake has been made in the reporting, as a baseball bat, and a cricket bat are two totally different pieces of sports equipment... not saying he didn't have both, baseball and cricket, but taking it at it's face value.. we know a baseball bat was behind his door, bedroom door I am assuming, but where was the cricket bat positioned relative to the rest of the weaponry, clothing, prosthetic legs, etc?
 
Minor4th - that 2nd section in your post isn't OP's statement that was read by his attorney on the 1st day of trial. It's part of the 2013 bail hearing affidavit.

I've searched, but haven't been able to find a full transcript of the trial statement.
 
I have never had the impression that Botha actually stepped in the blood. IMO it was OP who stepped in the blood by picking RS up and taking her down the stairs.

I don't know if it's ever been stated how he compromised the crime scene by walking around without foot covers -- it's been conceded that he improperly walked through the crime scene without the protective gear but I guess we won't hear about the problems it could have caused til Botha testifies.
 
Minor4th - that 2nd section in your post isn't OP's statement that was read by his attorney on the 1st day of trial. It's part of the 2013 bail hearing affidavit.

I've searched, but haven't been able to find a full transcript of the trial statement.

Oh crap, you're right. I'll fix it. I did see the full statement in print the other day.
 
and on that diagram of the floor plan, it doesn't say where the cricket bat was stored.. he thinks there is an intruder.. its pitch black, he get his gun and fires it, there is screaming beforehand.. and during... he realizes the door to the toilet is locked, so he batters it with a cricket, bat... but where, on this diagram, was the cricket bat originally?? before he dropped his gun and . one presumes, turns a light on, and picks up the bat?? from where?

I realise that Canadians and Americans sleep with knives and baseball bats. haha.. but... a cricket bat is a lot bigger than either of those two instruments..

Hmmm...this lends credence to my theory that possibly Reeva was defending herself with the cricket bat before she ran into the loo. If so, it would have been handy for him to pick it up.

What started me on this theory is MB's testimony that she heard both a man and a woman yelling for help.

Also...does anyone remember that Shane pointed out months ago that it looked like Oscar had a big hematoma on his right neck (just behind his ear) when he was in court the day after the murder?



:detective:

.
 

Attachments

  • bail-hearing-over-oscar-pistorius-shooting-enters-final-day-390x285.jpg
    bail-hearing-over-oscar-pistorius-shooting-enters-final-day-390x285.jpg
    19.8 KB · Views: 19
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
97
Guests online
440
Total visitors
537

Forum statistics

Threads
608,464
Messages
18,239,773
Members
234,378
Latest member
Moebi69
Back
Top