Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

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We are all entitled to an opinion but I struggle to understand how anyone can accept that when OP rushed into the bathroom and yelled to Reeva to call the police, that, knowing Oscar was also in the bathroom, she would not have said "I'm in the toilet, Oscar". She would have heard he was just outside the toilet cubicle door when he was shouting for her to call the police. Why would she not have answered him? This man's alibi is so full of "holes" it is totally unbelievable.

In the graphic posted earlier, it says Oscar was yelling at the intruder to get out WHILE he was going to the bathroom. Wouldn't Reeva have yelled back, IT"S JUST ME OSCAR!!

OMG, you are so right, it has so many holes?!!!

I don't understand why he said he was screaming for the intruder to get out. Didn't he think that through? That why wouldn't Reeva have responded to his yells while inside the toilet room?
 
I cannot find a complete statement. i may transcribe it from the video because this is really bothering me now
This one is edited, but is more complete (from http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-tells-his-side-of-fateful-night-1.1655690)

• I, the undersigned, OSCAR LEONARD CARL PISTORIUS, hereby furnish the following explanation of plea with reference to the charges to which I plead not guilty:

• COUNT 1

• MURDER – READ WITH THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 51(1) OF ACT 105 OF 1977:

• 1. In this formulation of this count, the State has contended that I unlawfully and intentionally killed Reeva Steenkamp (“Reeva”).

• 2. This allegation is denied in the strongest terms. In fact, at the time of the tragic accident which led to Reeva’s death, we were in a loving relationship.

• 3. While I admit that I inflicted the fatal gunshot wounds to Reeva, this occurrence was indeed an accident in that I had mistakenly believed that an intruder or intruders had entered my home and posed an imminent threat to Reeva and me.

• 4. In my application for bail, I concisely dealt with the events of February 14, 2013. I am advised that I will have an opportunity to deal with a comprehensive version of the events when I testify. For purposes of my plea explanation, I emphasise the following:

• 4.1 During the early hours of the morning, I brought two fans in from the balcony. I had shortly before spoken to Reeva, who was in bed beside me.

• 4.2 Unbeknown to me Reeva must have gone to the toilet in the bathroom at the time when I brought in the fans, closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains.

• 4.3 I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars.

• 4.4 I approached the bathroom, armed with my firearm, so as to defend Reeva and I. At that time I believed Reeva was still in the bed.

• 4.5 The discharging of my firearm was precipitated by a noise in the toilet, which I, in my fearful state, knowing that I was on my stumps, unable to run away or properly defend my self physically, believed to be the intruder/s coming out of the toilet to attack Reeva and me.

• 5. I respectfully believe that the State has no basis whatsoever for alleging that I wanted to take Reeva’s life. I will demonstrate hereunder, that, notwithstanding, the fact that all the objective evidence will corroborate my version of the events. The State has embarked on a strategy to rely on unsubstantiated allegations in an endeavour to prove that I wanted to kill Reeva.

• 6. The strategy was also employed at my bail application. I will hereunder concisely deal with some of the material aspects to support my contention herein.

• 7. At my bail application, the State, inter alia contended that I had deliberately shot Reeva, while I was positioned at a distance of about 1.5m from the toilet door and while I was standing on my prosthesis. The allegation with reference to 1.5m and me wearing my prosthesis, was clearly designed to suggest that I had pursued Reeva to the toilet and that I therefore knew that Reeva was in the toilet, thus that I did not entertain any fear at a time, when it is alleged that I entered the bathroom.

• 8. The State has also, by means of the evidence of the then investigating officer, Hilton Botha, sought to rely on a statement by a witness whom I have been told is a certain Estelle van der Merwe, who claims to have heard what sounded like a woman’s voice prior to the shooting, talking non-stop like fighting. The witness did not say that the alleged talking came from Reeva nor that the sound so mentioned, emanated from my house.

• 9. The statement, it would appear, offered an opportunity for the State to contend at the bail hearing that there may have been an argument between the applicant and the deceased and the evidence might point in that way. This witness has since deposed to a further statement, which materially contradicts her first statement.

• In the further and better particulars, the State disavows reliance on the first statement. The State has also conceded in the further and better particulars that it is not aware of any of the detail regarding the (alleged) argument and that may become clear during the trial.

• 10. Van der Merwe’s house is located approximately 105m from my bedroom, with my bedroom and bathroom windows facing in the opposite direction to Van der Merwe’s house. It would not have been possible for Van der Merwe to have heard anyone talking from my bedroom in their bedroom.

• The State is furthermore in possession of statements by a number of witnesses, including witnesses resident either in the estate where I reside, or in an adjacent estate.

• None of these witnesses claim to have heard any argument between Reeva and I, nor any woman’s voice talking, prior to the shooting, notwithstanding the fact that two of the witnesses (who live in closer proximity to my house than Van der Merwe) were awake at the time when Van der Merwe alleged that she heard a woman’s voice.

• 11. I refer to the above, as the State now alleges in the further particulars provided, that there was in fact an argument between Reeva and I and that I killed Reeva “because of the argument”. I am unable to comprehend on what basis the State (at the bail application), could only rely on a possibility of an argument between Reeva and I, and now, with even less available evidence, (by disavowing van der Merwe’s first statement), allege that there was in fact an argument and that I shot Reeva “because of the argument” .

• 12. I deny this allegation and reiterate that there is no justification, whether legally or factually, for this unfair and incorrect allegation to have been made. The aforesaid allegation is also not supported by any of the statements disclosed to me by the State.

• 13. Furthermore, contrary to what was contended for by the State during the bail application, the State has now conceded that it cannot be contended as a fact that I was 1.5m from the toilet door and that I had my prosthesis attached at the time when I discharged the firearm, anymore.

• 14. The unfair approach adopted by the State is further evident from the evidence given by Hilton Botha at the bail application, whose evidence will be demonstrated to have been false in material respects.

• More particularly, that it was designed to falsely incriminate me on an allegation of premeditated murder. It will also be demonstrated during this trial, that while Botha was the investigating officer and tasked with preserving the scene, that the scene was contaminated, disturbed and tampered with. This feature of the State’s case will be dealt with when Botha, among others, gives evidence.

• 15. I have been led to understand that it is unusual to challenge the State’s case in my plea explanation to the extent that I do herein. However, I am left with no alternative but to explain my innocence with reference to the allegations levelled against me. The aforegoing will be exposed by having regard to the State’s intended approach in this trial.

• This approach is to not only seek to unfairly draw inferences from purported statements of fact, which are not supported by the objectives, but also, by virtue of the statements disclosed to me by the State, to seek to introduce inadmissible character evidence under the guise that such inadmissible evidence would be admissible similar fact evidence. (This) to demonstrate that there was an alleged nexus between the (inadmissible) character evidence and the (non-existing) argument which allegedly led to me killing Reeva.

• 16. I am furthermore advised that, as the State is aware of the fact that it has no evidence to prove an alleged argument, and in particular, in view of the fact that the State has conceded that it does not know what the features or import of such alleged argument would have been, the only intended purpose of an attempt to introduce inadmissible character evidence would be to engineer and bring about an inadmissible attempted assassination of my character.

• I am advised that during the conduct of the trial my legal representatives will object to the introduction of such inadmissible character evidence, on the basis as stated above.

• 17. I respectfully state that no truthful evidence can ever be tendered that I fired shot, “because of an argument”. I deny this allegation in the strongest terms because there was no argument.

• 18. The allegation that I wanted to shoot (or kill) Reeva, cannot be further from the truth
.
• COUNT 2

• CONTRAVENTIONS OF SECTION 120(7) OF THE FIREARMS CONTROL ACT NO 60 OF 2000:

• ALTERNATIVELY, TO COUNT 2 CONTRAVENTION OF THE SECTION 120(3)(b) OF THE FIREARMS CONTROL ACT NO 60 OF 2000:

• 19. The allegations as formulated in the indictment with reference to this count, and the alternative count thereto, are denied.

• COUNT 3

• CONTRAVENTION OF SECTION 120(7) OF THE FIREARMS CONTROL ACT NO 60 OF 2000:

• FIRST ALTERNATIVE TO COUNT 3: CONTRAVENTION OF SECTION 120(3)(a) OF THE FIREARMS CONTROL ACT NO 60 OF 2000. SECOND ALTERNATIVE TO COUNT 3: CONTRAVENTION OF SECTION 120(4)(a) OF THE FIREARMS CONTROL ACT NO 60 OF 2000:

• 20. I admit that while I was in possession of the firearm as alleged, a shot went off. Save as aforesaid, the remaining allegations as contained in this count are denied.

• COUNT 4

• CONTRAVENTION OF SECTION 90 OF THE FIREARMS CONTROL ACT NO 60 OF 2000:

• 21. I admit that at all times relevant to this count, I had not been issued with a licence to possess .38 calibre rounds of ammunition. Save as aforesaid, the remaining allegations as contained in this count are denied.

• OLC PISTORIUS

• ACCUSED
 
The long and the short of it, in my opinion, is that OP was at no time under any direct threat from this 'intruder'. OP had the gun and the 'intruder' was safely locked in the toilet. He could have kept the gun pointed at the door and screamed for Reeva to wake up. He didn't wait for her to 'wake' up. At all times he had the upper hand and wasn't in any imminent danger. Of course, he couldn't have screamed for Reeva to wake up when he knew she was the one he was shooting at. Much as I'd like to keep an open mind, nothing makes any logical sense. Quite apart from the fact he'd had people stay over before and hadn't shot at anyone for going to the toilet or getting up and having a drink. They must have made noises too but didn't end up having 4 bullets pumped into them.

I think that he had his prosthetics on the entire time.

Like someone else said, I don't think they had ever prepared to go to sleep.

I find it harder to believe he would have had the upper-hand had he NOT had his prosthetics in. I don't see that he could have made Reeva feel so threatened that way. I think he had them in.
 
Does anyone know if OP is taking the stand?

It sounds as though he will!

"4. In my application for bail, I concisely dealt with the events of February 14, 2013. I am advised that I will have an opportunity to deal with a comprehensive version of the events when I testify."
 
Did anyone heard about this today ? :confused: (as I mentioned before I couldn't follow any live stream)

I read the updates given at WS and a lot of tweets but never before found this information





This completely contradicts what was said at the bail hearing





and it also completely contradicts what the pathologist of the DT (Perumal) said in an interview (at 24:26)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8TF4MrO8Q#t=1467
.
.

I think the blood-curdling scream was after the first shot to the right thigh. When she realized he was insane and trying to kill her, shooting at her.

The shot to the head is what killed her, IMO. NO noise after that.
 
Estelle Van Der Merwe, a neighbour, said the row had lasted about an hour.

"It seemed like somebody was involved in a fight," said Ms Van Der Merwe, who lives in the same gated Pretoria housing estate as the Paralympic athlete. "People were talking in loud voices."

The argument woke her at about 01:56 local time (23:56 GMT) and lasted about an hour. After that, she heard four loud sounds in succession.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26432447

IMO, this testimony seriously damages OP's claim that he & Reeva had been asleep since shortly after 10:00 p.m.

In previous threads, some of us have speculated that the two never went to bed or to sleep, but had been awake throughout the night arguing, the argument escalated, ending with OP shooting Reeva in a rage.

I think the testimony given thus far supports that speculation.

We'll see what else comes out during the trial that either continues to support that scenario or refutes it.

That is HUGE. First of all, obviously arguing would explain the escalation. Secondly, it proves that Oscar was lying. Why would he lie? He says they were sleeping, he woke up to get the fans, etc.. No, they were not sleeping, according to the witness. It's her words against his, and you all are already uncovering other lies he has told (bail statement vs. trial). So on the one hand you have a witness who has no reason to lie, on the other a defendant who has already lied about other aspects of the night.
 
There were no steroids in his blood or urine. That was a little PR lie by the original police investigator who was so gung ho to get Pistorius that he stated his hopes and speculations as facts. He was fired and has conceded that he made mistakes in the investigation, including walking through the crime scene without protective foot covers and hoarding the bullet-riddled door on the floor of his office rather than in a locked evidence room..


Objection :D

The main reason Botha was dropped from the case was because he and two other officers were accused of firing at a taxi carrying seven passengers during an allegedly drunken incident in 2011

This case was originally dropped but it has been reinstated on February 4th 2013 but police only learned on February 20th that the DPP had reinstated the charges against Botha.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/21/oscar-pistorius-case-lead-detective-removed

Botha made mistakes but what do you expect? ;)

The bail hearing started five days after the shooting of Reeva and Botha couldn't be expected to have detailed knowledge of all the evidence at that point.

That hearing was meant to be a bail hearing, not a trial within a trial. If it was handled like a proper bail application, there would not have been so many questions. At bail applications you do not have all the information such as forensics.

Even judge Nair said in the end the state could not be expected to put all the pieces of its puzzle together in such a short time.

Roux grilled Botha because he wanted to know what kind of evidence the state would have against OP. But Botha wasn't as stupid as people claim when he confirmed he couldn’t find anything that was inconsistent with Oscar’s version - he didn't want to show all the cards of the PT.

By the way - Roux said his forensic expert went through the toilet on the afternoon after the shooting.

And it wasn't Botha who was responsible for *hoarding the bullet-riddled door on the floor of his office*. It was the Boschkop police station commander Colonel Schoombie van Rensburg who kept the door in his office. Schoombie van Rensburg has resigned in December last year….

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Top-Oscar-Pistorius-cop-quits-20131215

 
My understanding is that they heard a woman screaming, shots rang out and the screaming died off. Then a mans voice yelled, help three times. Everyone said the same thing. The only difference was that some of them heard 4 shots exactly. Her husband thought there may have been 4 5 or 6.

IMO there seems to be a LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT WHO SCREAMED AND WHEN.

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I would like us to work on a timeline for what the witnesses have told us so far. You are welcome to improve, correct and enhance this.

TIMELINE

1.56am Estelle woke up hearing voices assuming they were arguing as it was loud enough for her to hear. The female voice was louder than the male voice. There were gaps in the arguing/talking.

About 3am Michelle woke up to the screams of a woman and so did her husband, Charl, who went out on to the balcony to see if he could see anything. They assumed it was a breakin.

They tried to phone security but it was the wrong number.

The woman screamed again loudly which was blood curdling and increasing in intensity.

The man called help, help, help unemotionally

They then heard one shot

Then a gap then three more shots....eg bang......bang, bang, bang

Charl said he heard the shots which could have been 4, 5 or 6. (IMO that could have been because of the echo from the bathroom tiles.)

Throughout this time the woman was screaming until moments after the fourth bullet then silence and they went back to sleep.

Estelle heard four sounds that sounded like "bang, bang" and later heard a person crying. She thought it sounded like a woman's voice. She went into her husband's bedroom and he told her it was Pistorius crying.

Some people IMO are getting mixed up saying that either OP was heard crying before the shots - not later - or not mentioning the crying later .

IMO OP yelled help help help.........bang (pause) bang, bang bang....crying

Now Roux seems to have been trying to get Michelle to say that all the sounds heard were that of a male voice and that OP sounds like a woman when he screams.

Over to you now......
 
an awful lot hinges on these witnesses who heard the arguing ,/screaming/ wailing...

the case is about OP's state of mind.. its no mystery who shot Reeva.. its no mystery how many times she was shot, it's no mystery where she was shot, its no mystery what she was shot with..

Its all about why she was shot.. OP's story has to be perfect, and unarguable to friends and enemies alike..

The fans.. 1 or 2?? big worry for Oscar...the catalyst that provoked him to arm himself, and then , in the dark , decide it was the toilet inside the bathroom that required his attention, line up and fire the gun, 1 2 3 4 times, then return to the bedroom, put on his prosthetics, open the blinds... realize Reeva is missing.. drop the gun and pick up from somewhere a cricket bat, he assumes the door is locked... we don't know if , before firing the gun he jiggled the door and found it locked, but he decides its locked and runs back to the toilet inside the bathroom and hammers at the door with the cricket bat.

And.. its assumed he was successful in unlocking, or breaking the lock of the toilet door with the cricket bat.. then runs to the phone, is told to assist Reeva, runs back and now enters the Toilet thru the broken door.. ( the trajectory of those shots is crucial ) scoops Reeva up and carries her downstairs...no small feat..

those fans... that bat.. the blinds... the dark and the light, legs on or off, the first noise he hears that propels him along this continuum ... it all has to work. It has to be repeatable.
 
I thought again about OP's changed statements ;)


Why suddenly *2 fans* ?

It takes more time to bring two fans in than only one. So, there was more time for claiming

- Reeva went to the toilet for peeing

- she flushed (but OP didn't heard this because he was at the balcony at this time)

- Reeva returned into the bed (but OP didn't noticed this because he was at the balcony at this time)

When OP came in the second time, closed the balcony door, blinds and curtains and heard *a noise* he was sure Reeva lay in bed and was asleep again because he was at the balcony for several minutes.

If OP brought only one fan in and walked with his gun to the bathroom after he closed the balcony door, blinds and curtains, Reeva couldn't have finished her peeing and OP must have heard the toilet flushing.

And then it must have been also clear for him that an intruder doesn't go to pee and operates the toilet flush after OP shouted to him "Come out!" and to Reeva "There is an intruder, call police!"

But he must have thought it was an intruder, so he needs more time = two fans.....


Why suddenly OP heard *bathroom window sliding open* ?

For several reasons:

1. This indicates he wasn't so careless and left the balcony door and the bathroom window open. The bathroom window should have been closed.

2. OP claimed there were ladders below the bathroom window. And this would be the only way an intruder could get into the house.

But this doesn't make sense because how could an intruder slid open the bathroom window from the outside when it was locked from the inside?

3. Judge Nair criticized in the bail hearing the open windows and doors and said OP has to explain this fact under oath. Now, OP changed his statement yesterday and claimed the bathroom window was closed the whole night and was opened just minutes before the shooting but not by him

The defence claims witnesses couldn't have heard an argument and a woman screaming because the (very small) toilet window (where Reeva was) was closed.

What a nonsense! The (big) open bathroom window is directly next to the toilet room. And as the witnesses testified Reeva screamed loud and desperately for her life - the toilet isn't a soundproof room and Reeva hadn't spoken in a normal volume. So, her screams could definitely been heard through the bathroom window.


OP could have closed the toilet window as soon as he got in there too.
 
In the graphic posted earlier, it says Oscar was yelling at the intruder to get out WHILE he was going to the bathroom. Wouldn't Reeva have yelled back, IT"S JUST ME OSCAR!!

OMG, you are so right, it has so many holes?!!!

I don't understand why he said he was screaming for the intruder to get out. Didn't he think that through? That why wouldn't Reeva have responded to his yells while inside the toilet room?

I think he tailored his original affidavit around facts that were known at the time. He had to have his own screaming in his version so it would match what was heard by witnesses. So in his version he was screaming to Reeva. In the witness version he was screaming while fighting with Reeva. I thnk his entire affi was written in this manner.
 

Despite living in a high-security compound, Pistorius told an interviewer recently that he slept with a revolver by his bed, a baseball bat behind his door and a machinegun by the window.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-charge-star-athlete-to-appear-in-court.html

Tuesday 04 March 2013
The Telegraph


and the high security fence, but he felt safe enough to leave his balcony door open until the middle of the night when he felt the need to go retrieve a fan
 
Roux must have been very disappointed that Estelle Van der Merwe heard this. I am sure he was hoping to spring this exercise on the PT as having been undetected.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-reeva-steenkamps-fatal-injuries-9167606.html

"Mr Pistorius’s lawyer was also forced to admit that the defence team recently conducted tests at the athlete’s home in the middle of the night, to see how far the sound of screaming would travel – a fact it was likely hoping to reveal at a later date – after the court in Pretoria heard from another of Mr Pistorius’s neighbours, Estelle Van der Merwe, who said she heard screaming coming from his apartment two weeks ago."
 
it is interesting, going to OP's state of mind at the time of the shooting and now, that he cannot or will not look at Reeva's mum in the courtroom.
 
I don't believe the fan story, the going to bed at 10pm, the yoga exercises by Reeva, the sudden waking up , the belief in an intruder..

I think he killed her because, according to all who knew him, he liked and needed to win, and something happened in that bedroom made him feel he was not winning.. a point, an argument, a question... may have been completely unintentional and unknowing by Reeva... how could she know?? it suddenly erupted into something she had no forewarning of.
 
For OP's story to be perfect there has to be an intruder that breaks into a toilet. Humph!
 
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