Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[sorrell skye]

But what about the Burger's testimony that says they heard Oscar yelling help before the second set of sounds?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rger-paralympian-reeva-steenkamp-murder-trial

"She testified that she had also heard a man shout for help three times before the shots were fired. At the time, she assumed the man and woman were being attacked by burglars."

So who do we believe? Stipp's version contradicts Oscar's version, but Michelle Burger's corroborates it if the second set of bangs were indeed bat sounds. Why is her version being ignored in favor of the version that goes against Oscar's? One of them is mistaken, but who?

bbm

This is what I want to figure out. Without any bias on my own part, without any preconceived idea on my own part of what it may or may not mean.

 

[Val1]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rger-paralympian-reeva-steenkamp-murder-trial

"She testified that she had also heard a man shout for help three times before the shots were fired. At the time, she assumed the man and woman were being attacked by burglars."

So who do we believe? Stipp's version contradicts Oscar's version, but Michelle Burger's corroborates it if the second set of bangs were indeed bat sounds. Why is her version being ignored in favor of the version that goes against Oscar's? One of them is mistaken, but who?

If I remember correctly, this is also where Roux badgered her about her recollection until she made the comment that the help help help sounded like the man was using it mockingly, which is when Roux really got intense and Nell objected and the Judge basically told Roux that line of questioning was exhausted... of course my recollection could be wrong but if so I'm sure at least a couple of posters here will be happy to correct me.illowfight:

 

[MeeBee]

If I remember correctly, this is also where Roux badgered her about her recollection until she made the comment that the help help help sounded like the man was using it mockingly, which is when Roux really got intense and Nell objected and the Judge basically told Roux that line of questioning was exhausted... of course my recollection could be wrong but if so I'm sure at least a couple of posters here will be happy to correct me.illowfight:

She did say that, she was being badgered about it and she said, "maybe he was mocking her, idk." Complete speculation on her part but she did say it. Stipp, from my recollection, made no such assumption.

 

[sorrell skye]

IIRC, Dr. Stipp may have been on the phone trying to contact security when he allegedly heard the 'help help help'. I may be mistaken in my recollection.

Right now all I want is a nap before the trial gets underway tonight, but this is too important to ignore.

 

[LemonMousse]

But what about the Burger's testimony that says they heard Oscar yelling help before the second set of sounds?

Berger's testimony, and Johnston's was that the help, help they heard was from both the man and the woman at the same time and that was before the last set of bangs. Berger said it sounded less despairing, perhaps mocking and Johnston said it sounded almost embarrassed.

Stipp heard just the one voice - a man's - coming from OP's balcony some minutes after the last bang.

I think OP shouted help twice that evening - once when arguing with Reeva, mocking her, and later after he shot her.

If you think about it - we know that OP did shout help that evening, he says so. Given that Stipp is able to pinpoint exactly where it came from and that fits exactly with what Oscar claims (from the balcony which is left to the bathroom), I think Stipp is more than likely correct. It's also unlikely that he's wrong about the time he heard it given that he knows he was talking with security when he did - and we know without any doubt that that was after the last bangs.

If OP only shouted help once, then by a remarkable coincidence, two people mistakenly thought they heard him shout that exact same thing 5 minutes or so before he actually did.

If Stipp is wrong, and the shout was before the bangs, then he thought he heard something 5 minutes after it actually happened.

If Berger and Johnson are wrong, then they mistakenly thought they'd heard something 5 minutes before that exact same thing was actually shouted.

Both of these are a stretch to say the least.

 

[MeeBee]

Berger's testimony, and Johnston's was that the help, help they heard was from both the man and the woman at the same time and that was before the last set of bangs. Berger said it sounded less despairing, perhaps mocking and Johnston said it sounded almost embarrassed.

Stipp heard just the one voice - a man's - coming from OP's balcony some minutes after the last bang.

I think OP shouted help twice that evening - once when arguing with Reeva, mocking her, and later after he shot her.

If you think about it - we know that OP did shout help that evening, he says so. Given that Stipp is able to pinpoint exactly where it came from and that fits exactly with what Oscar claims (from the balcony which is left to the bathroom), I think Stipp is more than likely correct. It's also unlikely that he's wrong about the time he heard it given that he knows he was talking with security when he did - and we know without any doubt that that was after the last bangs.

If OP only shouted help once, then by a remarkable coincidence, two people mistakenly thought they heard him shout that exact same thing 5 minutes or so before he actually did.

If Stipp is wrong, and the shout was before the bangs, then he thought he heard something 5 minutes after it actually happened.

If Berger and Johnson are wrong, then they mistakenly thought they'd heard something 5 minutes before that exact same thing was actually shouted.

Both of these are a stretch to say the least.

This is all possible. But it's still too much speculation and not enough of a firm nail down of when what was heard. Too many questions. Again, too many things that make me say, maybe he actually is telling the truth.

 

[MeeBee]

IIRC, Dr. Stipp may have been on the phone trying to contact security when he allegedly heard the 'help help help'. I may be mistaken in my recollection.

Right now all I want is a nap before the trial gets underway tonight, but this is too important to ignore.

I need to sleep before this thing starts, too. I don't think it's gonna happen, lol. Two and a half hours to go, I think. I'm so pumped for today.

 

[nastasya]

You need to review the replay of the witnesses because he definitely said the cricket bat was after the gunshots. Period.

And I didn't skip anything about Stipp - I said there was silence after the second set of bangs - the witnesses contradict each other was to whether help help help was said before the 3:17 bangs or after - so I didn't include that as something that is established by the evidence.

Do you really believe it's reasonable that:

• witnesses believed they heard a woman being attacked and gunned down, but
• what they really heard was OP making the sounds of a woman being attacked and gunned down moments after he just actually attacked and gunned down a woman?

What are the odds of that?

 

[MeeBee]

Do you really believe it's reasonable that:

• witnesses believed they heard a woman being attacked and gunned down, but
• what they really heard was OP making the sounds of a woman being attacked and gunned down moments after he just actually attacked and gunned down a woman?

What are the odds of that?

Objection! Asked and answered!

 

[LemonMousse]

I've just had a thought about the bathroom window.

Stipp thinks it was closed, although he couldn't be sure. But he was certain that it was frosted. I seem to remember that Nel specifically clarified that with him - the window was definitely frosted. Yes, definitely, said Stipp. The judge interjected and asked "Was it frosted at the time?" and was told yes.

I wondered about why this was important and it's hit me.

If the window was open, it wouldn't have looked frosted. It would have looked like clear glass. Stipp was adamant that it was frosted. So the window must have been closed.

And the judge picked up the significance immediately.

Oh, wow!

OP's entire story rests on the fact that he shot the door because the window was open.

It wasn't.

Although I will correct what I heard someone else say up thread now - I wasn't going to bother, but it matters now.

Roux tried to suggest Stipp couldn't see the window because it was partially obstructed by a tree. To prove this, Roux showed him a picture of the window taken from the small balcony in his bedroom. But that's not where I was standing, said Stipp - I was on the big balcony with a different view (the same place he'd been standing for all of the events). From there, the tree only obstructs a very small part of the window.

OP is going down.

:jail:

 

[MeeBee]

I've just had a thought about the bathroom window.

Stipp thinks it was closed, although he couldn't be sure. But he was certain that it was frosted. I seem to remember that Nel specifically clarified that with him - the window was definitely frosted. Yes, definitely, said Stipp. The judge interjected and asked "Was it frosted at the time?" and was told yes.

I wondered about why this was important and it's hit me.

If the window was open, it wouldn't have looked frosted. It would have looked like clear glass. Stipp was adamant that it was frosted. He has it committed to memory. So the window must have been closed.

And the judge picked up the significance immediately.

Oh, wow!

OP's entire story rests on the fact that he shot the door because the window was open.

It wasn't.

Although I will correct what I heard someone else say up thread now - I wasn't going to bother, but it matters now.

Roux tried to suggest Stipp couldn't see the window because it was partially obstructed by a tree. To prove this, Roux showed him a picture of the window taken from the small balcony in his bedroom. But that's not where I was standing, said Stipp - I was on the big balcony with a different view (the same place he'd been standing for all of the events). From there, the tree only obstructs a very small part of the window.

OP is going down.

:jail:

Stipp's window overlooks his bathroom window, right? It's possible he knows it's frosted because he sees OP's house everyday or every time he goes out onto his balcony and knows that it's frosted. And he knows that it's the bathroom because bathroom windows are usually the ones that are frosted.

 

[sorrell skye]

Well, if one witness heard a man yelling 'help help help' BEFORE the last "bangs" and another witness heard a man yelling 'help help help' AFTER the last "bangs", then, clearly, one of the witnesses is mistaken in their recollection.

I must save my energy for the trial tonight, but I'm more than happy to discuss the ramifications of this after tonight's/today's testimony.

TY MeeBee for pointing out this discrepancy!

fftobed: I'm going to try to take a nap before the trial starts (we'll see how that works out lol).

 

[nastasya]

I have stated over and over that I am sure the gunshots were around 3:10 and that the bangs at 3:17 were the sounds of cricket bat on door. I see so much evidence for this just in PROSECUTION witness testimony I don't consider that to be an issue at all any more.

This is not a personal attack. It's an opinion about the conclusion you reached, not you.

To say that the detailed and specific testimony of multiple witnesses describing that they are sure they heard a woman screaming, then saying that's evidence that OP's story is accurate, is beyond misrepresenting the evidence. It's more like starting with OP's story as gospel truth, then saying anything that doesn't fit OP's story must incorrect.

If testimony about a woman screaming doesn't match OP's version, then maybe it can be explained that OP is lying to keep from going to jail, not that all the witnesses were wrong about hearing a woman scream.

 

[MeeBee]

This is not a personal attack. It's an opinion about the conclusion you reached, not you.

To say that the detailed and specific testimony of multiple witnesses describing that they are sure they heard a woman screaming, then saying that's evidence that OP's story is accurate, is beyond misrepresenting the evidence. It's more like starting with OP's story as gospel truth, then saying anything that doesn't fit OP's story must incorrect.

If testimony about a woman screaming doesn't match OP's version, then maybe it can be explained that OP is lying to keep from going to jail, not that all the witnesses were wrong about hearing a woman scream.

I think it means both of those things are a possibility and I submit no one is being unreasonable to suggest either possibility.

 

[MeeBee]

Well, if one witness heard a man yelling 'help help help' BEFORE the last "bangs" and another witness heard a man yelling 'help help help' AFTER the last "bangs", then, clearly, one of the witnesses is mistaken in their recollection.

I must save my energy for the trial tonight, but I'm more than happy to discuss the ramifications of this after tonight's/today's testimony.

TY MeeBee for pointing out this discrepancy!

fftobed: I'm going to try to take a nap before the trial starts (we'll see how that works out lol).

YW SS!

Sleep tight!

It's possible what lemon is saying true. However, since all witnesses only heard the man's calling help once, and Oscar says he only did this once, then I'm inclined to believe he did only called help once and anything else is merely speculation. If that is the case, then one or more of them is mistaken. Who, I don't know.

 

[sorrell skye]

I've just had a thought about the bathroom window.

Stipp thinks it was closed, although he couldn't be sure. But he was certain that it was frosted. I seem to remember that Nel specifically clarified that with him - the window was definitely frosted. Yes, definitely, said Stipp. The judge interjected and asked "Was it frosted at the time?" and was told yes.

I wondered about why this was important and it's hit me.

If the window was open, it wouldn't have looked frosted. It would have looked like clear glass. Stipp was adamant that it was frosted. So the window must have been closed.

And the judge picked up the significance immediately.

Oh, wow!

OP's entire story rests on the fact that he shot the door because the window was open.

It wasn't.

Although I will correct what I heard someone else say up thread now - I wasn't going to bother, but it matters now.

Roux tried to suggest Stipp couldn't see the window because it was partially obstructed by a tree. To prove this, Roux showed him a picture of the window taken from the small balcony in his bedroom. But that's not where I was standing, said Stipp - I was on the big balcony with a different view (the same place he'd been standing for all of the events). From there, the tree only obstructs a very small part of the window.

OP is going down.

:jail:

Stipp said that he could see the left third of the bathroom window from top to bottom, which indicates to me that the bathroom window was open.

So much for that nap I'm in dire need of, lol.

 

[nastasya]

The burgers heard bangs around 3:17 That is known based on the time Johnson was on phone ( to wrong security) and the bangs coming after that.
That tallies with Stipps SECOND set of bangs at around 3:17.
No doubt in my mind that shots were at around 3:00 (give or take) and that cricket bat bangs were at 3:17. Burgers heard OP screaming and shouting and then cricket bat bangs. The Burgers were asleep at the time of the shots..... It's a common psychological phenomenon to experience "selective perception" The Burgers read and heard of events in the news and incorporated that into what they perceived. They may well believe what they have created in their minds... but they are wrong.

So let's pretend you're right about the timing and source of bangs. OP killed Reeva at 3:00, give or take, and then waited 15 minutes to break down the door.

You do realize that's not what OP said happened. And if that was the case, then OP allowed Reeva to lay bleeding on the bathroom floor for 10 minutes or so without calling the police, without calling an ambulance, and doing nothing to try to get her out of the toilet stall.

If 10 minutes elapsed between the shooting and OP hitting the door, then that makes OP a bad liar and guilty as hell. He shots somebody behind a closed door, doesn't know where Reeva is, doesn't look for, doesn't try to get into the bathroom door, doesn't call police, doesn't call an ambulance and doesn't tell Baba he killed anybody.

So what do you think OP was doing in those 10 minutes, other than screaming out the window like a girl?

 

[LemonMousse]

Stipp's window overlooks his bathroom window, right? It's possible he knows it's frosted because he sees OP's house everyday or every time he goes out onto his balcony and knows that it's frosted. And he knows that it's the bathroom because bathroom windows are usually the ones that are frosted.

He was recalling the time when he was looking through the lighted window at night at a figure moving from right to left. There is a big difference between seeing that person through clear glass and seeing it through frosted.

Stipp's memory was that it was through frosted, because he couldn't see who it was or even if it was male or female. Just a pale figure.

Sorry, I think given that everyone including the judge, Nel and Roux all saw the significance of this suggests that no one is going to write it off as oh well, he's seen it before. Roux even tried to "prove" that Stipp couldn't really see the window - and failed.

He is describing what he saw that night.

You know what? If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck....it is probably a duck.

 

[Val1]

This is not a personal attack. It's an opinion about the conclusion you reached, not you.

To say that the detailed and specific testimony of multiple witnesses describing that they are sure they heard a woman screaming, then saying that's evidence that OP's story is accurate, is beyond misrepresenting the evidence. It's more like starting with OP's story as gospel truth, then saying anything that doesn't fit OP's story must incorrect.

If testimony about a woman screaming doesn't match OP's version, then maybe it can be explained that OP is lying to keep from going to jail, not that all the witnesses were wrong about hearing a woman scream.

Imo, lies are always more believable if they're woven with a grain of truth.:twocents:

 

[LemonMousse]

Stipp said that he could see the left third of the bathroom window from top to bottom, which indicates to me that the bathroom window was open.

So much for that nap I'm in dire need of, lol.

Not sure what you mean. Why does that indicate that the bathroom window was open?