Trial Discussion Thread #12 - 14.03.24, Day 14

[Cherwell]

So having labelled OP controlling to the point of premeditated murder from his messages, and having him guilty as charged half way through the trial, what's the motive?

It better be good, otherwise this guy is simply on a murder charge.

It's more the content of her messages that tells the tale.

 

[steveml]

I think Sam showed us why. He fired a gun, almost deafened her in the car and sent her into shock. She said nothing. She was very young.

He drove at speed with the older Reeva, who straight away called mom. Made his misbehaviour known, and made him accountable.

Her texts also demonstrate her calling him to account for other behaviours. When police did that to him ( and remember they are armed themselves) he started shooting in response.

If Reeva called OP 'to account' that night in his house, there are previous indications firing off a weapon might be his first response.

Ok. Although the gun wasn't fired at Sam. OP's showing off and clearly irresponsible.
Driving a car at speed is irresponsible - we accept OP is clearly irresponsible.
Phone messages with no threats. Suggestion of control - nothing in texts - not even a threat. OP must have called many others to account and not intentionally murdered them.


Why Reeva? What's the motive? How does the above show premeditated murder and not murder?

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM: I submit it is not the messages per se, but that the messages were her expression of disappointment with his behavior toward her.

Does this sound like a loving relationship? I hope yours is not like this!

1. "You have picked on me incessantly," she wrote, calling Pistorius "nasty" after he apparently accused her of flirting with someone at a party. - Criticism, Control
2. "I'm scared of you sometimes, of how you snap at me" - Evoking fear
3. "You have picked on me incessantly" - Criticism, Control
4. "You do everything to throw tantrums" - Attention grabbing, Demanding
5. "I didn't think you would criticize me for doing that, especially so loudly that others could hear..I regard myself as a lady and I didn't feel like one after we left." - Humiliation

Those words in blue indicate abuse in a relationship.

.

Excellent post. Thank you!

 

[zwiebel]

Ok. Although the gun wasn't fired at Sam. OP's showing off and clearly irresponsible.
Driving a car at speed is irresponsible - we accept OP is clearly irresponsible.
Phone messages with no threats. Suggestion of control - nothing in texts - not even a threat. OP must have called many others to account and not intentionally murdered them.


Why Reeva? What's the motive? How does the above show premeditated murder and not murder?

I think I have an answer forming in my head, but think I need some time to think. Luckily, I'm not in front of Roux or OW, so I'm taking it!

 

[Rumpole]

I am more interested in Mrs Stipp's evidence regarding TIME.

Her 3:02 (on a clock 3 to 4 minutes fast) is at odds with other time points... whichever "side" you are on.

I am reluctant to disregard evidence simply because it does not fit my hypothesis.. I am critical when others do that, but I do question that time (lets call it 3:00) for the first set of bangs.

Coincidentally I got into the habit yesterday of typing "3:00" when I meant "3:10"

3:10 would make more sense for her evidence too.

She is at odds with her husband on this point. He heard bangs with time established by phone records at 3:17 and he also estimated the first set of bangs to be "10 minutes" before that... so at around 3:07. Of course there is wiggle room... so around 3:10 covers that... but NOT around 3:00. Whatever your hypothesis that time ("3:02") does not sit well?

 

[lisasalinger]

I am uncomfortable hearing people's private message read out at all.

I see a grubby little man reading a (dead) woman's private "diary" and another grubby man egging him on and salivating over it.

I accept that phone calls and messages might contain items of specific evidence. There are time when the evidential value overrides privacy... maybe there will be some of that here. But reading out these private conversations just to make a general point about the relationship being not always loving is pushing it. Especially in the light of the Dude conceding that most ("90%") of messages ARE in fact loving and so the messages as a whole support OP's contention that it was a loving relationship. This feels nasty and grubby... intrusion. Unless there are specific details revealed I give it no weight as evidence.

Well... unfortunately when you kill a person, you subject yourself to being judged. The Prosecution does it and the Defense does it. Nobody is immune.

I have zero pity for Oscar. If you are willing to own a gun with powerful ammunition, and willing to use it on a person, you need to be willing to live with the consequences.

 

[steveml]

It's more the content of her messages that tells the tale.

Fair comment. My question still stands.

I'm not sure the Judge will think that these messages show intent for premeditated murder.

Remember before today how much anticipation there was for these messages? I really hope there's more, otherwise this is likely to be a murder charge and nothing more.

 

[james83]

Before people go off the deep claiming OP has abused and controlled Reeva, we have yet to see something substantial. From a guy's point of view I think some of the women on here would find it deeply offensive if a woman had sent a couple of text messages of a similar ilk, and I started labeling them before anything had been proven.

As I mentioned earlier, I've had more severe messages from my girlfriend on the occasion we've fell out - and she's certainly not controlling or abusive.

In the first few months or sporadically over the course of a normal relationship with up's and down?.
And i hazard a guess that you or girlfriend have never felt scared of each other?.

 

[minor4th]

Fair comment. My question still stands.

I'm not sure the Judge will think that these messages show intent for premeditated murder.

Remember before today how much anticipation there was for these messages? I really hope there's more, otherwise this is likely to be a murder charge and nothing more.

I hope there's more. I want the state to give me something that really convinces me.

 

[lisasalinger]

As far as I know, Darren is the bf/fiance of Reeva's model-girlfriend SG. Reeva knew D longer than she knew OP.

Darren is now married but not to Sam Greyvenstein. I can't type out personal info about him, but you can check out Twitter to research.

Sam Greyvenstein was Reeva's best friend and was dating Justin Devaris, the guy who runs Daytona Group. Not sure if they are still together or not.

And yes, Reeva and Darren had been friends for a long time.

That whole group was quite intermingled.

 

[soozieqtips]

I hope there's more. I want the state to give me something that really convinces me.

Like what? What would convince you that OP killed Reeva during one of his rages?

 

[minor4th]

Like what? What would convince you that OP killed Reeva during one of his rages?

Well, evidence that he has a history of being physically abusive. Evidence that there was a fight that evening. Evidence of threats he has made to her or to past girlfriends. Something along those lines.

Or anything that really proves that his version is impossible.

 

[steveml]

What's to say he hasn't had jealousy issue's in the past?.
Maybe because his other girlfriends were very young and probably very inexperianced and were probably happy to abide to his every jealous wish.
Motive may become clear very soon, we shall see.

I can't imagine Roux saying to the Judge 'what's to say......?

Or,

I put it to you m'lady, maybe......?

It means nothing unless you have something viable to show the Judge.

The motive certainly needs to become clear soon. There's hope yet.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Can anyone remember the text where OP is asking her not to tell anyone because 'Darren has taken the blame', and Reeva texts back she doesn't 'know what you are talking about', and a smiley?

How did Reeva find out about that - she wasn't there in the restaurant that day of the shooting. Had OP told her earlier, and was regretting it? Or had he heard that someone else had told her about it? It's all a bit odd.

Darren F was one of Reevas best friends and it was his party she was talking about so I imagine it may have been him.

 

[Rumpole]

Well... unfortunately when you kill a person, you subject yourself to being judged. The Prosecution does it and the Defense does it. Nobody is immune.

I have zero pity for Oscar. If you are willing to own a gun with powerful ammunition, and willing to use it on a person, you need to be willing to live with the consequences.

I agree. If there is evidence in these messages it should be exposed. But private conversations read out (badly) is not evidence of much at all. Reading out the "bad bits" from messages conceded to be 90% loving messages is pushing a false notion. Selective evidence is always questionable. A few arguments in 1000's pages of loving messages.

I was listening and thinking of Reeva's private messages being exposed...

 

[lisasalinger]

Fair comment. My question still stands.

I'm not sure the Judge will think that these messages show intent for premeditated murder.

Remember before today how much anticipation there was for these messages? I really hope there's more, otherwise this is likely to be a murder charge and nothing more.

I get what you're saying, but is there any part of the totality at this point that speaks to you. We have:

1. A man who admittedly shot at his girlfriend 4 times through a locked, closed door. Claims he thought it was an intruder because the window was open, heard a noise and it was pitch black.

2. Multiple witnesses who heard fearful, blood-curdling screams of a woman prior to hearing gunshots (which silenced the noise).

3. Two neighbors confirming the bathroom light was on the whole time

4. Remember, Oscar states it was quiet and dark the whole time. He says he yelled out to Reeva and to the supposed intruder to get out, call the police. But come on... that is not the same as a blood-curdling scream. And there was no reason to be screaming fearfully (so much so that you sound like a woman) BEFORE the door was broken down. According to him, he didn't know she was in there. The defense posturing about Oscar making 100% of the noises that night is laughable. Nice try, but laughable.

5. A Medical Examiner who states it would be almost impossible for her not to scream under the circumstances. And puts in to question the time they went to bed based on food in her stomach.

6. A ballistics expert who pretty concisely explained how she was likely shot in the hip first, and then the subsequent injuries - in different parts of the body, from different angles. If she was shot in the hip, do you honestly believe she would not have screamed.

7. The ear witnesses state that these screams from the female went on for minutes.

8. Now we have text messages that show that as early as 6 days prior, Oscar and Reeva had some nasty fights. She expressed (her words, not mine) being scared, him being nasty, him being jealous, him mocking and making fun of her in public, etc.

9. Oscar's ex-girlfriend testifying about him not only screaming at her but screaming at many other women in their lives at the time.

At what point does the totality mean something? I'm not saying that you have to believe every single detail of the State's case. It is your prerogative to believe or disbelieve witnesses. But again, I'm talking totality. Take away one or two people that you may not believe, for whatever your reasons, and there is still a lot of things that do not match Oscar's story at all.

Does this honestly sound like a mistaken intruder? Can ALL of this be discounted?

I cannot abandon my human common sense.

 

[minor4th]

I agree. If there is evidence in these messages it should be exposed. But private conversations read out (badly) is not evidence of much at all. Reading out the "bad bits" from messages conceded to be 90% loving messages is pushing a false notion. Selective evidence is always questionable. A few arguments in 1000's pages of loving messages.

I was listening and thinking of Reeva's private messages being exposed...

It always makes me really uncomfortable too, even when it's necessary evidence. :blushing:

 

[james83]

I can't imagine Roux saying to the Judge 'what's to say......?

Or,

I put it to you m'lady, maybe......?

It means nothing unless you have something viable to show the Judge.

The motive certainly needs to become clear soon. There's hope yet.

No idea what you are on about, i am expressing by opinon/theories on a forum, this is not a court i do not need hard evidence to have an opinion on what happened.

 

[Really?]

I think it's very very very likely that the root cause of Reeva being killed was jealousy.
JMO.[/QUOTE




Yep.....He must have been steeeeeeeeeaaaaming when he her saw her talking to another man......He even said he was right up ( tight up ) next to her and then she TOUCHED HIS ARM !!!!!!.........so he steams off and she continues her convo with this guy....he was watching her....

there is a song that comes to my mind now....by...

The Killers......" Mr. Brightside ".........

 

[soozieqtips]

I'm a person too and I appreciate that you invited me out tonight and I realise that you get harassed
but I am trying my best to make you happy
and I feel as though you sometimes never are,
no matter the effort I put in.

That's because he would never have been truly happy unless he controlled her 100%, and even then he'd have been looking for more ways to make her feel bad for his own insecurities. They were clearly a bad match, and Reeva was in yet another abusive relationship after having said she wouldn't be in one again. It makes sense that she didn't talk much about this with friends because I think she'd have felt embarrassed admitting she was in the same situation as she'd been in before. Also, women who haven't been abused sometimes find it hard to understand why victims don't just run for the hills. Sadly, it's a lot more complicated than that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/24/oscar-pistorius-scared-girlfriend-murder-trial-hears