Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Mango33]

Yes there are more, Zwiebel was fantastic at posting the details as they were revealed this morning, InterestedBystander reposted them near the top this page - post #454.

The one call that is important is the one he made at about 1:48AM, a five minute call. That call coincides with when Reeva had a snack so again op lied in his affidavit hence the need to change his story about getting in bed at 10:00PM and calling it a day.

Thanks, but we were talking about any calls after Netcare (ambulance), at 3:20 am

I had thought the 1:48 activity was internet connectivity for 5 minutes, not a phone call. Who did he call?

 

[Mango33]

Perhaps. What time did Dr. Stipp arrive at the house? What time did Stander arrive at the house? What time did the friend and his daughter arrive at the house?

ETA: I just did some checking. So if OP had his phone "accidentally" make those phone calls after his call to Netcare, then the phone was in his hand or on his person correct? So instead of immediately dropping the phone, so both hands are free to carry Reeva downstairs and not in a pocket of his shorts (if there are even any pockets in his shorts) that would make it awkward to bend over and pick Reeva up, he has the phone in his hand/on his person for at least 42 seconds after he ends the call with Netcare. I am not including the call from security to him in that time frame.

Yep, I think you are right. I does seem the phone was on or near his person for another 40-something seconds

 

[Viper]

Now that the PT has presented it evidence it is interesting to look at what the DT will have to overcome to beat the Premeditation enhancement that OP is charged with, that is added because the State believes that OP knew it was Reeva he was tying to kill. I won't recall all of them, but the important ones to me are:

1) the witness testimony that it was screaming and then gunshots, from 5 witnesses
2) firing 4 shots, and hitting Reeva with 3 of them, including one in her head
3) the light was on in the bathroom when the screaming and shots stopped

I believe that 1 and 2 are the most often debated here, so my list is nothing new to be sure! Please let me know what I have not listed.

 

[nastasya]

Indications and/or proof killer lied in his affidavit:

1. “We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way."

Killer could not know how victim felt.


2. "With the benefit of hindsight, I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in."

Killer knows victim went into the toilet. No need to equivocate.

How could killer "know" victim could not be happier, and "believe" she went into the bathroom?


3. "I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me."


Killer was sharing a room with victim, and killer left the room. When killer returned, killer claims the mere sound of a noise in the bathroom caused "terror" to rush over him.

Killer was aware victim from time to time uses the bathroom, and the victim had opportunity to leave the bed and go to the bathroom when killer left the bedroom.

Killer's claim that a mere "sound in the bathroom" made by the victim entering the toilet induce a state of "terror" to "rush over" him is not reasonable. I.e., it is not reasonable that ordinary sounds would induce state of "terror."


4. “I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva."

Killer begins using present tense in affidavit. At no time did killer describe any emotion when he found victim's body. He did not say he was mortified, shocked, surprised, anguished, devastated, sickened, or any other emotional state upon the "discovery" of the body.

In fact, in the killer's version of events, his "discovery" of what he had done was triggered not by finding the body behind the door, but by finding the victim not in bed a few seconds after firing 4 shots. Victim did not describe attempting to look for the victim in case she left the bed after hearing the shots and killer's warnings to call police.

Killer might have had an easier time getting away with such an incredibly weak and unsubstantiated alibi in a jury trial filled with unintelligent jurors who might be adoring fans and believe such transparent tripe. State will have opportunity to destroy killer's transparent lies during cross examination if killer testifies.

I predict there will be many observers comparing killer to Jodi Arias in terms of level of self-centered, narcissistic, sociopathic tendencies during his explanations for why he killed his lover in the bathroom.

 

[weeeva]

There goes my prime motive then. OP did not find Reeva texting or calling another man that fateful night. So there is no clear motive for OP's actions. Unless of course he is telling the truth.
I was teetering on the edge yesterday, but I am back to square one again. Innocent till proven guilty.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Ok, but I remember chasing that rabbit and what I posted is where it ended; the room is to the left on the front of the house with a small patio facing the neighbors front yard water feature. She was the furthest from OP that she could be and still be in the house IIRC.

The problem is that there was a video on You Tube where it stated this but the account has now been closed. I think it was by Michael Azzie or a similar name but it definitely said she lived "out back". There is also reference to this video on Digital Spy with a link but as I said, the account is now closed so other than reference to it I cannot post a definite link.

Here is an excerpt of what was said and the non functioning link.

"Here's BBC 3 Documentary via Youtube and Mike Azzie interview is on there.
It's interesting Pistorius has a housekeeper who lives out back"

YouTube


This is a map showing that the gardener lived in the house (see yellow highlight)'

http://www.scribd.com/doc/162790733/What-did-Oscar-Pistorius’-neighbours-hear

 

[Viper]

The problem is that there was a video on You Tube where it stated this but the account has now been closed. I think it was by Michael Azzie or a similar name but it definitely said she lived "out back". There is also reference to this video on Digital Spy with a link but as I said, the account is now closed so other than reference to it I cannot post a definite link.

Here is an excerpt of what was said and the non functioning link.

"Here's BBC 3 Documentary via Youtube and Mike Azzie interview is on there.
It's interesting Pistorius has a housekeeper who lives out back"

YouTube


This is a map showing that the gardener lived in the house (see yellow highlight)'

http://www.scribd.com/doc/162790733/What-did-Oscar-Pistorius’-neighbours-hear

I believe you, I wasn't saying you were wrong or anything. But as I said I too was interested in this at one time and that is what I found. If you have an image of the front of the house or an arial image that shows the house from left side you will see her tiny walled patio that faces the neighbor's front yard and beyond that their water feature. Besides if she were in the back she would be under the gunshots and more likely to hear everything. I don't know maybe a gardener has a tool shack or a living quarters back there for all I know. I'm out.

Anyway it does not matter because the State has rested and OP doesn't want anyone else that actually witnessed this murder to testify! :smile:

 

[DebinGA]

Now that the PT has presented it evidence it is interesting to look at what the DT will have to overcome to beat the Premeditation enhancement that OP is charged with, that is added because the State believes that OP knew it was Reeva he was tying to kill. I won't recall all of them, but the important ones to me are:

1) the witness testimony that it was screaming and then gunshots, from 5 witnesses
2) firing 4 shots, and hitting Reeva with 3 of them, including one in her head
3) the light was on in the bathroom when the screaming and shots stopped

I believe that 1 and 2 are the most often debated here, so my list is nothing new to be sure! Please let me know what I have not listed.

IIRC Roux told Capt. Mangena that his expert would contend that RS was standing with her right side to the door, not facing it as CM found, and that the bruises on RS's back were not from the ricochet but from RS falling onto the magazine rack. Just guessing, Roux will go with the double-tap/only 2 shots (4 bullets) in close succession theory, with the head shot occurring immediately, leaving RS incapable of screaming.

 

[TorisMom003]

IIRC Roux told Capt. Mangena that his expert would contend that RS was standing with her right side to the door, not facing it as CM found, and that the bruises on RS's back were not from the ricochet but from RS falling onto the magazine rack. Just guessing, Roux will go with the double-tap/only 2 shots (4 bullets) in close succession theory, with the head shot occurring immediately, leaving RS incapable of screaming.

IMO, this would be foolish. Reeva was shot in the left side of her head. That would not have been possible if she was standing with her right side facing the door IF (which ballistics show didn't happen anyway) she was shot in the head first. This also means that OP would have to shoot down lower in order to hit Reeva in the hip IF it was not the first shot.

MOO

 

[steveml]

Good point.. it was before he saw her.

However, I still believe that he did the screaming that sounded like a woman. It certainly was not Reeva, since the evidence proves that the sounds of screaming were after she was dead (ish)... heart beating but brains blown out.

Sooo, you don't believe she screamed after first plug in her hip? Don't believe the ME? :facepalm:

There is very little to suggest that rapid shots to the hip and brain would elicit a scream. Thankfully that they haven't done tests, due to the unavailability of live bodies willing to participate.

 

[TorisMom003]

There is very little to suggest that rapid shots to the hip and brain would elicit a scream. Thankfully that they haven't done tests, due to the unavailability of live bodies willing to participate.

However, the only ones claiming that there were rapid shots to the hip and brain is the defense/OP. The ballistic expert, and ear witnesses, have stated that after the first shot (the one to the hip) there was a pause and then three more shots.

 

[james83]

I firmly believe that even in the best case scenario for Oscar, which is obviously the judge believing his story, he will be sentenced to 15 years in prison, that's as good as it will get for him, imo.

 

[steveml]

However, the only ones claiming that there were rapid shots to the hip and brain is the defense/OP. The ballistic expert, and ear witnesses, have stated that after the first shot (the one to the hip) there was a pause and then three more shots.

The gap between the first and second shots are therefore critical to determine the length of screaming.

If we fire a shot, pause for two seconds and fire another, the second that bullet hits the brain the screaming stops. That is one thing that cannot be disputed - any sound stops dead.

If we hazard a guess at two seconds, try the test yourself by making a sound and look at your watch for two seconds.

A very short time indeed.

We also need to bear in mind that this is only if we believe it was the second shot.

 

[steveml]

I firmly believe that even in the best case scenario for Oscar, which is obviously the judge believing his story, he will be sentenced to 15 years in prison, that's as good as it will get for him, imo.

I agree with you.

I'd be very surprised with anything less than the maximum sentence available for murder.

 

[TorisMom003]

The gap between the first and second shots are therefore critical to determine the length of screaming.

If we fire a shot, pause for two seconds and fire another, the second that bullet hits the brain the screaming stops. That is one thing that cannot be disputed - any sound stops dead.

If we hazard a guess at two seconds, try the test yourself by making a sound and look at your watch for two seconds.

A very short time indeed.

We also need to bear in mind that this is only if we believe it was the second shot.

Actually the second shot was the missed shot. It was either the third or fourth shot and since there has been numerous witnesses that heard a woman screaming until the last shot, then I would say it was the fourth shot. We don't know how long of a pause there was between the first shot and the second shot. There was also testimony that there was two sets of sounds, with screaming of a woman during all of that and only ending with the last shot of the second set of shots.

 

[Carol70]

Is there an estimation as to how long it would take to call Netcare, explain the injuries Reeva has sustained, ask for an ambulance to be sent, give them the address where the ambulance is needed and listen to them tell a person (OP) that it would be best to put Reeva in a car and drive her to the hospital instead of waiting on an ambulance?

Also, do we have any nurses, doctors or other medical personnel on this thread that can explain if it is possible that when being requested for an ambulance, that upon hearing the injuries that Reeva had, that a medical professional would advise to move her into a car and drive to the hospital instead of waiting on an ambulance?

It was me who just suggested that netcare may have told OP to bring Reeva to the hospital due to the sometimes long waiting time for ambulances. Today was the first time I saw that he actually called the netcare ambulance service and NOT the actual facility as I first thought. The response time should have been fantastic, netcare is a top rated private medical service and I'm wondering why an ambulance never arrived shortly after his call!

 

[TorisMom003]

It was me who just suggested that netcare may have told OP to bring Reeva to the hospital due to the sometimes long waiting time for ambulances. Today was the first time I saw that he actually called the netcare ambulance service and NOT the actual facility as I first thought. The response time should have been fantastic, netcare is a top rated private medical service and I'm wondering why an ambulance never arrived shortly after his call!

Wasn't there something from OP himself stating that Netcare told him to bring Reeva himself to the hospital instead of waiting for the ambulance?

 

[seattlechiquita]

Was this previously shared/ is it kosher? Because I am in huge OMG mode:

https://twitter.com/justteaplease/status/448168967098863616/photo/1

 

[TorisMom003]

Was this previously shared/ is it kosher? Because I am in huge OMG mode:

https://twitter.com/justteaplease/status/448168967098863616/photo/1

That was shared in court yesterday. Says a lot doesn't it?

 

[steveml]

Actually the second shot was the missed shot. It was either the third or fourth shot and since there has been numerous witnesses that heard a woman screaming until the last shot, then I would say it was the fourth shot. We don't know how long of a pause there was between the first shot and the second shot. There was also testimony that there was two sets of sounds, with screaming of a woman during all of that and only ending with the last shot of the second set of shots.

OK, so however the shots are juggled to make them fit, we still have to remember that there is no murder benefit in OP allowing the victim to scream for any real length of time.

Unless he wanted to get caught.

For Reeva to be screaming for any substantial length of time, he would have probably needed to taunt her through the door for a while, similar to the Jack Nicholson scene in The Shining.

Entirely possible, yes. Plausible?