Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[JuneBug67]

I'm quoting myself

The 15 minute time lapse in between bangs, that we uncovered through Mrs. Stipp's testimony yesterday, is concerning to me.

If the defense believes that the initial shots were around 3am and then the next set of bangs (the bat) were heard almost 15 minutes later, isn't that a problem? It should not have taken Oscar 15 minutes after the shots to go get the bat. The Stipps say there was continual female screaming all throughout this time. According to Oscar, he didn't know yet that it was Reeva in the toilet.

So for 15 minutes he was screaming in agony, not having any confirmation of where Reeva was, before he broke down the door to access what was behind it?

Help me understand? It certainly doesn't look good that it took him 19 minutes to call anybody.

That gap does seem long, and needs a credible explanation. At the same time, if the bat came after the shots, it makes sense that it would be heard by witnesses already awakened by the gunshots. It's quite probably not a subtle sound.

 

[lisasalinger]

Sure it does. If a scream sounds like a woman to one witness, it's natural that the same screams would sound like a woman to all who heard them.

If it turns out that it could only have been Oscar screaming, as alleged by Roux (and supported by the state's evidence), then it stands to reason that all of the witnesses have made the exact same mistake.

ETA: We already know that one witness mistook Oscar's "loud crying" for a woman, so it is within reason that the other ear witnesses made the same mistake. That is not difficult to understand, I don't think.

BBM

IIRC, this crying was heard after the last set of bangs and it was crying, not screaming. I do believe that Mr. van der Wewre heard Oscar crying afterwards.

It's possible that because Mrs. van der Mewre heard a female voice during the argument earlier, she assumed it was the same person crying afterwards. That's just a guess on my part.

 

[screecher]

He excelled on an Olympic running track with purpose designed prostheses. Not remotely relevant to standing on a few inches of bone below his knees in the middle of the night facing what he may have believed was an intruder.

Then it would make sense he hire protection and use a security system...no?

IF being a double amputee (since childhood btw) created a sense of fear and vulnerability in him IMO, it would seem he would create his living environment with a high degree of security.

IMO, he holds no personal accountability for his behavior nor does he accept any personal responsibility for his actions.

IMO, he falls back on and uses his 'severe disability' when it serves his agenda. Shame on him.

I believe he'd behave the same without the double amputations.

 

[nastasya]

There's no inference to be made that the female talking came from Oscars house when she specifically said she had no idea where those sounds were coming from. She didn't even know the direction they were coming from

Really the only inference to be drawn is that it may have been coming from Oscars house or it may have been coming from anywhere else.

That's incorrect. The inference can be made that the voices were coming from the killer's house because according to the witness, her husband identified one of the voices as that of Oscar Pistorius.

This is fatal for the killer's alibi. If Van der Merwe heard arguing for an hour, and the defense claims her husband identified one of the voices the voice of Oscar Pistorius, then it affirms the case for premeditated murder. I.e., Pistorius' entire story is a lie.

The defense can't claim Van der Merwe heard the voice of Pistorius, but didn't hear the argument. That makes no sense.

 

[JuneBug67]

So if there was really a possibility that there was someone in the toilet who might shoot at him, why wasn't he standing in the passage where he could use the wall to shield himself?

I don't know. We can't know. We weren't in his house, or in his mind. It's not unreasonable to approach and investigate the noise. Maybe being in the passage would have made him feel blind and vulnerable if somebody burst out and overwhelmed him before he could accurately shoot them. I really believe 'why didn't he do this' and 'why didn't he do that' is folly from our positions safely behind our keyboards. I don't know if he knew Reeva was in the toilet room, but I know for sure I can't know how I would react in his situation if he didn't. We need to rely on the evidence, and there is less of if than I thought there might be when I started following this case.

 

[DebinGA]

OP claims he got up, retrieved the fans on the balcony, and closed the doors and curtains on his return. Did his statement say whether the balcony doors were locked when he went for the fans?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Well she said she awoke at 1:56 to the sounds of one voice talking, possibly arguing. She did not say those sounds were coming from Pistorius' house though. She said she didn't know where the sounds were coming from.

Yes, you are quite right. The guards went by at 2.20'ish and said there was nothing wrong. I doubt whether he would see the lights on at the back of the house where the bedroom was but if OP/RS were shouting in the minute or two he was walking by he would have heard. I don't recall if Mrs Van der Merwe said that there were loud voices for every moment of that hour to which she refers but I see referred to above that she said there were breaks. It seems there probably were times when OP/RS were not arguing. I think it would be coincidental if that happened when the guards went by but definitely not impossible.

 

[steveml]

Apps, like Facebook, can push notifications to the phone. So yes, the phone can access the internet passively.

That said, I challenge anybody to explain how that passive access could last 5 full minutes.

It's also true that it could have been Reeva accessing the internet using killer's phone, and may have discovered something that started the fight that Van der Merwe heard at 1:56.

That's an easy one. I use push email on my iPhone, as many do.

It automatically downloads and takes exactly as long as it needs. It can be a second to more than 10 minutes depending on mail/attachment size and download speed.

 

[Feynman]

There's no inference to be made that the female talking came from Oscars house when she specifically said she had no idea where those sounds were coming from. She didn't even know the direction they were coming from

Really the only inference to be drawn is that it may have been coming from Oscars house or it may have been coming from anywhere else.

Recall, though, that Merwe's husband identified the cryer as OP.

 

[screecher]

He wasn't facing anyone.

He was safely on the other side of a closed door with a weapon.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not only was he NOT facing anyone, he was going after her.:banghead:

 

[Cherwell]

I don't know. We can't know. We weren't in his house, or in his mind. It's not unreasonable to approach and investigate the noise. Maybe being in the passage would have made him feel blind and vulnerable if somebody burst out and overwhelmed him before he could accurately shoot them. I really believe 'why didn't he do this' and 'why didn't he do that' is folly from our positions safely behind our keyboards. I don't know if he knew Reeva was in the toilet room, but I know for sure I can't know how I would react in his situation if he didn't. We need to rely on the evidence, and there is less of if than I thought there might be when I started following this case.

He wouldn't have been "blind", he would have been peering around the door jamb with the gun trained on the toilet door. Classic position which we have all seen in countless action dramas. Plus he would have been a little further away from the "intruder".

 

[JuneBug67]

Then it would make sense he hire protection and use a security system...no?

IF being a double amputee (since childhood btw) created a sense of fear and vulnerability in him IMO, it would seem he would create his living environment with a high degree of security.

IMO, he holds no personal accountability for his behavior nor does he accept any personal responsibility for his actions.

IMO, he falls back on and uses his 'severe disability' when it serves his agenda. Shame on him.

I believe he'd behave the same without the double amputations.

Well he did live in a gated and guarded estate, and I'm not sure we have any evidence one way or another about a home alarm system. I agree he was hot head with guns and may have been so independent of of any other factors. But at 3:00 am, in the dark, facing a potential physical confrontation or other attack, it is unreasonable in my mind not to credit a specific fear and sense of vulnerability based on his physical realities. Missing the majority of your shins and both your feet is a significant disability. Otherwise, why spend most of life on prostheses of one kind or another?

 

[minor4th]

Recall, though, that Merwe's husband identified the cryer as OP.

Yes but not the arguing voice. She didn't indicate that the two sounds came from the same place.

 

[luvmygarden]

We do know that the killer claims he left the safety of the bedroom holding a 9 mm fully loaded with black talon bullets and put himself squarely in front of that toilet door. The killer claims in his own affidavit he increased his level of potential danger.

My thoughts exactly. He stands in front of the toilet room not behind a wall that could protect him. If the intruder appeared he could have directly shot the person with quite good aim and at least injured the person enough to get he and Reeva out of the house. Unless there was a small army in the toilet. On his way out he could have pushed security button and grabbed his legs and had help right away. Who takes such a chance when they have another person in their home?? Not looking for her and trying to protect her is horrible, That doesn't make sense. It appears his only concern was HIMSELF in his version. That is why I believe he was in a fit of rage and killed Reeva. And cried later as his life past before him and his demise.

 

[Gavel Rash]

He wouldn't have been "blind", he would have been peering around the door jamb with the gun trained on the toilet door. Classic position which we have all seen in countless action dramas. Plus he would have been a little further away from the "intruder".

Yes the 'Code red' washing machine event. As we see there he is well versed in acting out a drama hunt down & kill action too.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Well he did live in a gated and guarded estate, and I'm not sure we have any evidence one way or another about a home alarm system. I agree he was hot head with guns and may have been so independent of of any other factors. But at 3:00 am, in the dark, facing a potential physical confrontation or other attack, it is unreasonable in my mind not to credit a specific fear and sense of vulnerability based on his physical realities. Missing the majority of your shins and both your feet is a significant disability. Otherwise, why spend most of life on prostheses of one kind or another?

There are emergency alarms fitted to the houses and Pieter Baba, the guard, did question, in court, why, if OP had an intruder, he did not use the alarm system to alert them.

 

[screecher]

And in his mind, seemingly firmly on guns a lot of the time, maybe he thought he was facing an armed intruder behind a door as capable of firing at him as he was of firing at them. So we really can't know how safe he perceived himself to be, if his story is true.

Instead of going after imagined intruder with hollow point ammo, who btw, was behind two doors, why do you suppose OP didn't collect Reeva and book down the stairs and outside to safety?

 

[JuneBug67]

There are emergency alarms fitted to the houses and Pieter Baba, the guard, did question, in court, why, if OP had an intruder, he did not use the alarm system to alert them.

That's interesting. Was there testimony about where the alert access point were?

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"We already know that one witness mistook Oscar's "loud crying" for a woman, so it is within reason that the other ear witnesses made the same mistake. That is not difficult to understand, I don't think."

Perhaps I have misunderstood the evidence presented. Because my impression upon hearing the evidence is that it is only Barry Roux's assertion that the witness "mistook Oscar's loud crying for a woman".

Thus, we do not "know" that to be a fact.

 

[nastasya]

That's an easy one. I use push email on my iPhone, as many do.

It automatically downloads and takes exactly as long as it needs. It can be a second to more than 10 minutes depending on mail/attachment size and download speed.

I just tested 1 MB file. It took 13 seconds. That means for connection to last 5 minutes there would be 20 MB of data transferred approximately.

My guess is prosecution is waiting to cross-examine Pistorius and ask him things like why the phone connected to the internet. When he answers, they'll present the evidence. If it connected to the internet there's a record of where it connected.

State does not have to provide rebuttal evidence to the defense ahead of time. This might be fun to watch. It's like a chess game. If Pistorius is lying he won't know what state has on him until he tells the lie.