Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[TorisMom003]

My thoughts exactly. He stands in front of the toilet room not behind a wall that could protect him. If the intruder appeared he could have directly shot the person with quite good aim and at least injured the person enough to get he and Reeva out of the house. Unless there was a small army in the toilet. On his way out he could have pushed security button and grabbed his legs and had help right away. Who takes such a chance when they have another person in their home?? Not looking for her and trying to protect her is horrible, That doesn't make sense. It appears his only concern was HIMSELF in his version. That is why I believe he was in a fit of rage and killed Reeva. And cried later as his life past before him and his demise.

What makes this even worse IMO is the fact that Reeva had said to him in a text before that OP was "the one person I deserve protection from".

 

[JuneBug67]

"I believe there was testimony that a witness made a remark to her husband about a "woman crying" and her husband corrected her and told her it was Oscar crying."

Thank you for this JuneBug. I will be the first to admit that the manner of the presentation of testimony in this case has been somewhat confusing to me. Especially on the cross exam. It is so different for those of us who are used to watching U.S, trials.

So it was the crying sound that the witness mistook for a woman, not the screaming?

I've missed a bunch too, and am grateful for the pool of people able to fill me in! The testimony thus far was only about the crying. Roux intimated that he will call a sound expert to testify that Oscar can reach the typical pitch of a female voice when screaming, so we'll have to judge that as it comes.

 

[Gryffindor]

But WHAT did he nip upstairs to do when Stipp arrived????

 

[TorisMom003]

OP claims he got up, retrieved the fans on the balcony, and closed the doors and curtains on his return. Did his statement say whether the balcony doors were locked when he went for the fans?

The claim was that the doors had been open for at least 5 hours by the time he went to retrieve the fan/s. OP stated that he and Reeva went to bed around 10 pm and that around 3 am he brought in the fans, closed the doors, curtains, etc. Since the balcony doors were left open for at least 5 hours, then it doesn't matter if they were locked or not.

ETA: We do not know how long the balcony doors were open before 10 pm or if they were even open before 10 pm.

 

[Gryffindor]

What makes this even worse IMO is the fact that Reeva had said to him in a text before that OP was "the one person I deserve protection from".

Double meaning?? Protection FROM him harming her. Or from him, protecting her from others??

 

[Gavel Rash]

I am trying to be the scared Oscar...hear a noise grab gun go to bathroom fire off 3 rounds as that is what everyone heard first...person is screaming...screaming...screaming for time gap 3.02 to 3.14....possibly at this point with 2 major wounds according to ballistics...so in that 12 minute gap he's screaming, shes screaming, hes crying, running around getting bat legs etc, returns to bathroom breaks thru door bang...bang,bang sees bleeding revva and so pumps another round in her for good luck to just stop the screaming?

Or is has he broken door panel, 3 bangs....gone to get gun during 12minutes gap? raised his weapon at her...she is looking at him screaming and he says 'hasta la vista baby' the low male voice heard and pumps four rounds into her Bang...small hesiation but hes getting off on it... bang bang, bang.

This is the scenario I am most in fear of.

 

[lisasalinger]

But WHAT did he nip upstairs to do when Stipp arrived????

He actually went upstairs after Stipp examined her, not when he arrived. I looked back at some notes on that.

Stipp examined her, stated she was dead, then went outside with Mr. Stander. While he and Stander were outside talking, he saw Oscar walking upstairs. He was concerned because they didn't know where the gun was and Oscar was very emotional. Oscar came back down a few minutes later.

 

[Cherwell]

I've missed a bunch too, and am grateful for the pool of people able to fill me in! The testimony thus far was only about the crying. Roux intimated that he will call a sound expert to testify that Oscar can reach the typical pitch of a female voice when screaming, so we'll have to judge that as it comes.

It's not difficult to accept that he was crying after the event. But why would he have been screaming in terror, as some of the witnesses have described? He has said that he shouted various things - well, he uses the word "screamed" but if he was articulating words, then that's shouting, yelling.

 

[nastasya]

No, that was the witnesses' own testimony.

The witness testified her husband told her it was OP's voice. <modsnip> We don't "know" that Van der Merwe mis-identified hearing a woman scream as the voice of Pistorius.

 

[DebinGA]

The claim was that the doors had been open for at least 5 hours by the time he went to retrieve the fan/s. OP stated that he and Reeva went to bed around 10 pm and that around 3 am he brought in the fans, closed the doors, curtains, etc. Since the balcony doors were left open for at least 5 hours, then it doesn't matter if they were locked or not.

ETA: We do not know how long the balcony doors were open before 10 pm or if they were even open before 10 pm.

Went to bed with the balcony doors unlocked but now claims he had an extreme fear of intruders? Fails the "reasonable person" test imo.

 

[Gryffindor]

He actually went upstairs after Stipp examined her, not when he arrived. I looked back at some notes on that.

Stipp examined her, stated she was dead, then went outside with Mr. Stander. While he and Stander were outside talking, he saw Oscar walking upstairs. He was concerned because they didn't know where the gun was and Oscar was very emotional. Oscar came back down a few minutes later.

Should have clarified, I meant while Stipp was on scene tending to Reeva, not as soon as Stipp arrived x

 

[TorisMom003]

Double meaning?? Protection FROM him harming her. Or from him, protecting her from others??

In reading the text, the context in which it was used was him protecting her from others. However I had posted yesterday when this text was read out in court that it could be one of two meanings. The same two that was stated in your post. It concerns me that Reeva felt that OP didn't bother to protect her. No one should be made to feel that way when they are in a "loving relationship".

MOO

 

[Gryffindor]

Went to bed with the balcony doors unlocked but now claims he had an extreme fear of intruders? Fails the "reasonable person" test imo.

Balcony doors OPEN never mind unlocked!! Agree

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't know. My point is that we can't know. If Oscar's story is true, we are talking about moments to form a response to a perceived threat. He is without his prosthetics, the bedroom door is locked, perhaps in his mind if he does one other thing than remove the threat he will be gambling his own life and that of Reeva. The instinct to survive is an extremely powerful one.

BBM

Yes - the instinct to survive is extremely powerful - as is the instinct to ensure that your loved ones are safe.

A few years ago, my youngest daughter (a teen at the time) and I were home when someone tried to break into our house early in the morning. I grabbed the phone and dialed 911 while at the same time waking my daughter. I wanted to ensure that if the intruder succeeded in breaking in (he was trying to break down the front door), my daughter would be awake and alert so that she could flee or fight. I didn't even have to think about it - my instinct was to make sure my daughter was safe.

Per Samantha Taylor's testimony (OP's former girlfriend), OP's historical pattern had been to awaken her and consult with her when he heard noises in the night that he thought might be an intruder. She testified to 2 separate instances when he had done so.

On the morning that OP shot and killed Reeva, he didn't even check to see where she was (according to his version), nor did he consult with her regarding the noise he allegedly heard (as he'd done with ST in the past), let alone ensure that Reeva was awake, safe, and ready to flee or fight.

At a glance, OP's version sounds plausible. But when placed in context of his historical pattern (see above reference), and when scrutinized beneath the light of the State's evidence, I personally find his version to be less credible than the State's case.

 

[MeeBee]

The witness testified her husband told her it was OP's voice. You're blatantly misrepresenting the facts. We don't "know" that Van der Merwe mis-identified hearing a woman scream as the voice of Pistorius.

But if the crying was heard after the two sets of bangs then Reeva was already dead. So it had to have been Oscar.

 

[TorisMom003]

Went to bed with the balcony doors unlocked but now claims he had an extreme fear of intruders? Fails the "reasonable person" test imo.

Agreed. OP also claims that he went out on the balcony to retrieve the fan/s without his "legs" on. Yet he has "limited mobility" when it suits him without his "legs" on.

 

[Gryffindor]

In reading the text, the context in which it was used was him protecting her from others. However I had posted yesterday when this text was read out in court that it could be one of two meanings. The same two that was stated in your post. It concerns me that Reeva felt that OP didn't bother to protect her. No one should be made to feel that way when they are in a "loving relationship" MOO

Exactly. I'd like to know WHO was so vocal with Reeva regarding their relationship concerns with Oscar and Reeva, with Reeva's interest at heart . . . What were their concerns that they aired/voiced?

 

[lisasalinger]

The reasons why I am so defiant that the screaming was not Oscar:

1. Both Stipps testified that the female screaming started immediately after the first 3 bangs. If Oscar thinks he just shot an intruder there is absolutely no reason for him to immediately start high-pitched screaming. According to his affidavit, he describes backing out of the bathroom with his eyes kept on the door and going back in to the bedroom. That is not immediate screaming.

2. The screaming proceeded to last several minutes, up to as many as possibly 15 minutes based on the timeline that I posted earlier. Oscar, according to his affidavit, was doing a number of things during this time. Going from room to room, opening doors, yelling "help", putting on legs, etc. A consistent high-pitched, blood-curdling scream does not seem consistent with these activities.

3. Five witnesses that we know of all adamantly described the scream as female and blood-curdling/terrified/life-threatened. Based on the fact that a person ended up dead in a locked toilet room with 4 bullet injuries, my best logical guess is that they heard correctly.

4. The Medical Examiner feels it would be almost impossible to not scream given these injuries.

5. The Ballistics expert testified that it is very likely the hip injuries came first, based on the location of the other wounds and the bullet holes in the door. As of right now, I believe him. I don't have any other experts telling me otherwise. The fact that Roux even insinuated that it was a double tap tells me that their expert is not going to be very credible. No way that it was two double taps. The evidence doesn't support that.

6. All of the screaming that was heard was heard PRIOR to the last set of bangs. Everything that happened prior to that last set of bangs was behind a closed door. Oscar did not know Reeva was in there until he broke the door down (according to him). Wouldn't it make a lot more sense that his screams intensified once he knew for sure it was her and saw her injuries? But they didn't. This is not logical in light of everything else.

I'm a broken record here, but again, totality!! Add it all up. I cannot ignore all of these factors together.

Oscar can come in to court on Friday or next week and howl at the moon for all I care, I cannot believe that he is the source of those screams because it does not fit the evidence.

 

[TorisMom003]

If he, in his mind, firmly believed Reeva was in bed then it is not unreasonable that he would feel a rush of terror at a noise in the ensuite bathroom of his locked second story bathroom located in a country where deadly home invasions are de rigueur. One the adrenaline is pumping and the heart is hammering we don't really use the parts of our brain we are using as we sit behind our keyboards pondering this. I don't know what happened that night, and I don't know what Oscar knew. I do know though that the scenario he claims is not ludicrous or outlandish. It does need a very narrow and very specific set of facts and circumstances and beliefs to be credible, but it is possible that it happened as he says it did.

During one of his statements (for lack of the proper word) OP claimed that Reeva was asleep when he went out on the balcony to get the fan/s. During a later statement OP claimed that he spoke to Reeva before he went out on the balcony to get the fan/s.

Now in the first statement where he has Reeva asleep, then yes I can see where he would think she is still in the bed. However, if he hears a noise in the bathroom isn't it normal to check and make sure she is still asleep? To wake her if she is and let her know what is going on? To tell her to call for police?

In the second statement where he has Reeva awake, and he hears a noise, is it reasonable to think that an intruder climbed into a second story bathroom window instead of thinking that Reeva got up to go to the bathroom? Wouldn't it be normal to check and see if Reeva is still in the bed, since she is awake, and ask her if she heard what he did?

OP's story does not make sense, IMO. It is not what a normal, reasonable person would do. If you (general you) have a person in the bedroom with you, hear a noise in the bathroom, do you automatically think "oh my, someone just climbed in through the bathroom window!"?

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

It's not difficult to accept that he was crying after the event. But why would he have been screaming in terror, as some of the witnesses have described? He has said that he shouted various things - well, he uses the word "screamed" but if he was articulating words, then that's shouting, yelling.

It's not hard for me to imagine him screaming in anguish and terror as the reality dawned that he had quite probably just fired four bullets at his girlfriend, compounded by the fact that she's behind a locked door and he can't immediately get to her. It is a possibility, at least.

The bail application was a limited document for a limited purpose. He was under no obligation to detail his every movement and utterance at that time, and it is legally prudent for him not to have done so. Contradictory statements will be relevant, other additions may be suspicious, but claiming he screamed in terror as he expands his account does not really concern me.