Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[jay-jay]

Or look on WordPress at Juror # 13. Which is a member's excellent blog, she has photos that many hadn't seen.

OK .. cool .. found it .. thanks!

 

[minor4th]

It's that the evidence does not match his story. That neighbors heard a woman screaming. That neighbors heard two set of gun shots. That OP did not follow the advice given to him about taking Reeva to the hospital. It's all of the things added up together about this case.

Look, OP can tell whatever story he wants to since he is the only living person that was involved that night. He can claim anything that he wants to. The problem is that his claims and his story have to match the evidence and make sense. So far, they don't. I don't buy that 5 different witnesses heard wrong concerning a woman screaming. I don't buy that everyone (cops, witnesses, state lawyers, everyone) is lying to railroad OP. I don't buy that this is some big conspiracy that was set up just to get OP, no matter what kind of celebrity he is.

MOO

There's all the focus on OP's story not being believable but no discussion of the complete impossibility of the states case.

OP's version may be a carefully crafted fabrication, but in the absence of a plausible theory by the prosecution, it's what we're left with.

BTW, I don't believe all the witnesses are lying or conspiring either.

I think the ear witnesses have made some erroneous inferences and conclusions, and I think all of their perceptions have been influenced by a year's reporting and their knowledge of the state's case.

I think some of the police witnesses were outright lying to cover for themselves or for their colleagues, having severely compromised the crime scene and evidence. That's not a conspiracy to get Oscar - it's covering one's backside to avoid looking completely incompetent and ridiculous.

I also believe that the state only investigated what they thought would benefit their own theory and intentionally neglected to investigate matters that might have corroborated Oscar's account.

I think Samantha Taylor is a disgruntled ex girlfriend who would love to get back at Oscar for breaking her heart. That doesn't mean that I think everything she said is false - I don't. But I think she embellished and piled it on thick to assail Oscar's character.

I think Darren Fresca was flat out lying in order to get a deal from the state and avoid charges against him. He was revealed as a liar.

I think the boxer guy was telling the truth.

I think Van Rensburg was telling the truth.

I think Dr Stipp for the most part was telling the truth, although I believe he embellished and added to his account after discussing it with his wife and various others and maybe being pressured by the police.

I think Mrs Stipp is lying about seeing a light on at the exact moment she heard the gunshots. The rest of her testimony seemed credible enough, although very defensive and unwilling to even consider reasonable alternative possibilities.

I think Merwe was telling the truth as well as she could remember it - she was not extremely clear about some aspects.

I think Baba is mistaken about the order of the phone calls and timing, as that has been established by phone records.

I think the ballistics guy was honest and clear, and same for the blood spatter guy and the phone data guys.

 

[nastasya]

Why is there a hole in your bedroom door?

Why are there jeans on the patio outside, below bathroom?

Why did you have black talons bullets in your gun?

And most importantly....
Why don't you take a seat and tell us THE WHOLE TRUTH?

Nel doesn't even need to trip him up. All he needs to do is ask one question:

"At what point did you decide to kill the person you heard in the bathroom?"

 

[Gavel Rash]

OP trial affi: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open"

Whoa. He heard that just after closing the curtains/doors in the bedroom? Hope Nel tested to see if that's possible, because I doubt it is.

You forgot that Oscar not only runs like a cheetah he has their hearing ability as well...

And he could hear that above the arguing heard happening in his immediate neighbourhood? Did he hear the same domestic sounds as the other neighbours Merwe? heard for the hour prior whilst he was getting the fans?

 

[steveml]

Can people please understand that this is not a campaign forum - it's about discussing the merits of the case.

As such, we should all speak to each other on here as we would face to face.

If anyone needs to post sarcastic one-liners regarding either OP or Reeva then vent your anger on Twitter or Facebook, not on here please.

Everybody was nice and respectful during the first half of the trial, so I don't see why anything should be different now.



:cheers:

 

[minor4th]

Did the doctor say OP told him that? OP trying to open Reeva's airway so he could start rescue breaths? Seriously? With her brain matter all her and everywhere he dragged her?

No the doctor observed Oscar doing this and said it during his testimony.

Yeah, seriously. For realz.

 

[Really?]

You might have missed this, but the doctor explained that he was trying to open her airway and give her rescue breaths.

No...lol...I did not miss that....I still don't believe it....I think he was silencing her....just in case she could speak.

 

[minor4th]

How do you think they'll reconcile the shots heard by the Stipps?

6 shots - all gunshots?

LOL - the State's own case isn't supported by its own witnesses

 

[jay-jay]

OK .. cool .. found it .. thanks!

Something from that blog re. the duvet .. which people have been asking about ..

"The duvet was found crumpled up on the floor in front of the bed when Van Staden began to photograph. He spotted a few drops of blood spatter on the duvet, which he took a photo of. He then spread out the duvet and found more on the inside of the duvet."

 

[Trooper]

No the doctor observed Oscar doing this and said it during his testimony.

Yeah, seriously. For realz.

seriously. not for realz.. the doctor gave NO opinion as to why Oscar had his fingers stuck down Reeva's throat where he dropped her in the hallway..

he merely stated that was the position Oscar was in. on his knees, his fingers down her throat, and the other hand on her bloody groin..

Dt Stipp made NO stipulation as to WHY Oscar would be doing any of these motions.

 

[nastasya]

I put it to you :smile: ...if he thought Reeva was still in the bed...

Could he have been going towards danger in order to protect Reeva?

Better to tackle an intruder in another room away from Reeva?

You can keep suggesting your definition of imminent danger, but it will still be wrong. All that matters is what SA and Judge Masipa recognise. That isn't going to change.

SA Law (as we currently understand)

If you have the belief that a person would injure you or someone close to you and even possibly kill you as a result of this attack, you may use any and all means to defend yourself.
The nature of the threat only has to be imminent, and you do not need to be able to see your attacker.

No, it would never be better to broadcast your location in the darkness to somebody who doesn't realize you heard them break in.

Do you have children?

I do.

If I heard a noise in the bathroom down the hall and even thought it might be an intruder, I would move to first guard my children, and then move them quietly to safety.

The dumbest thing possible is to put myself potentially in harms way. OP's story is self-contradictory. If he feared an intruder might shoot him, the dumbest thing to do would be to noisily approach the intruder through two dark passages, risking being shot and leaving Reeva helpless to defend herself.

Also, re imminent danger from an attack... there was no attack. There was only an unarmed woman in a toilet stall. The only person in imminent danger was Reeva.

 

[Trooper]

you are, of course entitled to say that is your conclusion, that Oscar was possibly clearing Reevas airway.. but it isn't in Dr Stipps testimony that he , dr Stipp , formed that conclusion.

 

[DebinGA]

Nel doesn't even need to trip him up. All he needs to do is ask one question:

"At what point did you decide to kill the person you heard in the bathroom?"

Apparently, as soon as he heard the sound of the bathroom window sliding open, especially if he thought RS was trying to escape out of it.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

LOL - the State's own case isn't supported by its own witnesses

What charges do you think the state should have gone with after the case we have seen ?

 

[Viper]

What charges do you think the state should have gone with after the case we have seen ?

Premeditated Murder.

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks .. I've got a fairly good idea of the actual layout itself from having researched some images previously .. it's just that none of them actually show the actual doors, especially the 'bedroom' one (they usually show the toilet door). I'll scroll back and see if I can locate the one you mention though, see if it sheds any light on it!

OK, I think I've got the bedroom door sussed now .. the only bedroom door is one which comes off the landing and separates that from the bedroom/ensuite bathroom/toilet area. There is no bedroom door between the bedroom and the bathroom <<-- that was the bit I was trying to work out, to see if there was a door which had been locked between the bedroom and the bathroom, which clearly there couldn't have been because there isn't a door there. So the bedroom door which was apparently locked was the one leading out towards the landing.

 

[james83]

So how exactly did oscar hear the bathroom window sliding open but didnt hear the toilet door shuting and the sound of the door being locked?.

 

[steveml]

No, it would never be better to broadcast your location in the darkness to somebody who doesn't realize you heard them break in.

Do you have children?

I do.

If I heard a noise in the bathroom down the hall and even thought it might be an intruder, I would move to first guard my children, and then move them quietly to safety.

The dumbest thing possible is to put myself potentially in harms way. OP's story is self-contradictory. If he feared an intruder might shoot him, the dumbest thing to do would be to noisily approach the intruder through two dark passages, risking being shot and leaving Reeva helpless to defend herself.

Also, re imminent danger from an attack... there was no attack. There was only an unarmed woman in a toilet stall. The only person in imminent danger was Reeva.

No I don't have children,

However I have seen many grown men attack other grown men when the circumstance has arisen, for example if insults have been made to a wife.

The automatic reaction isn't always to shelter the woman and put an arm around her. Often it is to challenge the male - probably something to do with testosterone.

 

[Interested Bystander]

You can find a copy of OP’s Trial Statement/Plea here.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210458767/Oscar-Pistorius-plea


Does the fact that he has now changed various elements of his Bail Affidavit mean that it is technically deposed?

The reason I ask is that he does not mention the bedroom door being locked in his Trial Statement but clearly adds two fans and the fact he spoke to Reeva.

 

[Trooper]

What charges do you think the state should have gone with after the case we have seen ?

murder , interfering with a corpse and attempting to pervert the course of justice .