Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[G.bng]

Fair points. I'm probably just trying to look for a nicer explanation that the horrific alternative. They were only pet dogs actually but maybe he should have had guard dogs if he was so security conscious. I guess or hope we get some of the answers when he testifies!
I do live in the UK, in Cornwall and thankfully so far with a low crime rate, but yeah I know what you mean.

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

Yes let's hope for answers from the only one who can really clarify anything. Meanwhile, hello from Suffolk where I've been staying for several years in an area that has one of the lowest crime rates in all the UK according to the crime checker website. But I come from a flat in London where even the post-boxes have been broken into several times in the 10 years I've lived there !

 

[katydid23]

IMO, OP lived in that specific gated community because of the top notch security force, at his beck and call. Imagine if he had heard noises and called them immediately, saying there were intruders in his upstairs toilet, and he was locked away in his bedroom with a weapon. I would think that armed security officers would have been there, to save the day, within moments. I am surprised that he never thought to call them himself, as back up, before he confronted the unknown danger. And I am surprised that he never has a two way conversation with Reeva, as he was grabbing his gun, allowing her to run for safety as he confronted the invaders.

 

[Trooper]

one shot may make sense.. depending on ones perspective and culture. 3 extra shots over and above and after and during prolonged screaming from a woman is the sense of murderers..


which is what the Republic of South Africa has logically charged him with. And the Republic of South Africa doesn't even agree with the first shot. Obviously.

 

[katydid23]

I did not mean for it to sound like they were locked in by a third party - only that unlocking the door was another step to take to get away safely.

But if he really thought an intruder was about to come out of the toilet shooting at him and Reeva, it makes total sense to me that he would think the only sure way to protect himself and Reeva would be to get his gun and get in a position to shoot the burglar before the burglar could come out shooting.

Try to look at it from the perspective that he really did believe that an intruder was about to come out of the toilet room shooting. If he really believed that, then all of his actions make sense to me.

BBM

I don't agree. Tactically, his actions make little sense. If there had been 2 or more intruders with AK's, he would have been dead.

He was locked in the bedroom with a loaded weapon. He had time to call security, to have them come and back him up. He had time to grab the gun, get Reeva, and be prepared to shoot anyone trying to get through the locked bedroom door. That was much better strategy than hobbling on stumps out into the darkened hallway, where he had no protection at all.

 

[G.bng]

I am talking about the impact his disability may have on his mental state. He was not in a state of panic when he was taking in the fans, his mental state changed when he heard the noise in the toilet, he went into survival mode, kill or be killed. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt here, keeping an open mind. I am basing my opinion on his own story too, which I think could just be true.

I know what you mean but he must have something unbalanced to take survival mode to that extent. And surely it does not explain why he didn't he check if Reeva was in bed and if necessary wake her. Reeva also knows how to handle a gun if asleep was in the most vulnerable of states, and if awake then he could have told her quietly to ring the police, get out, hide, whatever but to just rush out towards the danger and shout out hoping she will hear him ? What if he had been killed ? How would that be protecting her ? Maybe that's why he shot to kill but that will damn him as it seems under SA law he couldn't lawfully shoot blindly through a door not even if at an intruder.

 

[BabaJ]

I did not mean for it to sound like they were locked in by a third party - only that unlocking the door was another step to take to get away safely.

But if he really thought an intruder was about to come out of the toilet shooting at him and Reeva, it makes total sense to me that he would think the only sure way to protect himself and Reeva would be to get his gun and get in a position to shoot the burglar before the burglar could come out shooting.

Try to look at it from the perspective that he really did believe that an intruder was about to come out of the toilet room shooting. If he really believed that, then all of his actions make sense to me.

When looking at the bedroom and bathroom plan (another thread with plans and drawings - if they are correct), it would be about 3-m distance and one corner from the end of the bed to the bedroom door in order to exit with my gun and girlfriend but it would be likely more than 6-m distance plus two corners in order to get to the bathroom, stand in front of the closed door and shoot, it simply does not seem rational. On the other hand, some people do not act as expected.

 

[steveml]

Trouble is It's Oscar who brings it up in his affidavit

"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable".

Thanks. I understand the vulnerability side re: OP, that is for him to explain.

I'll clarify the point I was making to avoid confusion. One cannot, or perhaps shouldn't, use OP's disability throughout the case on a selective basis.

Within reason, if he is capable of performing most potential guilty actions on his stumps, he would more than likely be capable of performing most innocent actions on his stumps.

 

[steveml]

This malarkey about being in deep terror, and all that stuff, is moonshine and a ploy to play into fears specific to Pretoria, where as it happens the crime of burglary is declining exponentially.. ( oddly, the crime of intimate partner femicide is increasing exponentially.. one every eight hours. ) .. how does Oscar sleep , and for 4 months at a stretch in his house in Italy??

Because the murder occurred in Pretoria, the concept is floated that he was entitled to blam away, because of his high risk perceptions. Not so, says SA Law

Where he would not be granted a permit to have a single solitary gun on his premises or person. . where even a small penknife is considered a weapon. Being a house owner doesn't qualify.. he isn't a citizen of Italy..

He couldn't take his arsenal to Italy with him, and he couldn't replicate it there, either.. He would have to leave it there, if he managed to acquire some.. Otherwise he would run the risk of being sprung in airline security, rubbishing his chances of ever being allowed on an airline again. Anywhere. A terrific handicap for competition and sponsorship. Having a stash of guns in his house in Italy would be an instant deportation and a huge scandal. ( not as big as his current one though, but big enough)

Yet for 4 months of the year, Oscar manages to contain and suppress his fear and terror and bounce off to Italy, as helpless as a baby with nothing between him and an Italian intruder.. they do have em , .. same as any country. yours mine and Oscars.

Forget the 'double tap'... if Oscar is silly and unskilled enough to 'accidentally ' fire off a safety-switched-on Glock which he has been informed is 'one up' under the table in a restaurant on a busy Friday lunch hour, he hasn't achieved double tap status and hopefully never will. And , he fired that Glock when it was aimed down.. at the floor. At Kevin Larena's toes.

The next time we hear of Oscar pulling the trigger, he fires it so close to the ear of the driver of the car which is travelling at speed, that the blood vessels in his ear bleed.

This is not a double tap shooter.. I'll go along with Oscar being an accurate shooter though. he hit his target 3 times out of 4 , without seeing that target, or how many targets he was shooting at.. thanks to Viper, I now take on board that his 4th shot would have been as accurate, had the target not been propelled over and down , as physics demands.. ( I originally had him pegged at 75% accuracy, but logarithmically, he was spang on for each bullet. )

OP is of Italian ancestry, however he doesn't have a house in Italy according to his legal team.

It's unlikely they're going to say that and embarrass themselves, as this was qualified at the bail hearing. Can you provide the source of this information?

 

[Trooper]

Viper!. a serendipitous moment occurred while Capt Maritz was giving evidence the other day.. Often a ticker tape news broadcast of South African news flits across the screen , but at that moment , the news that ticked its way across was that Clive Derby-Lewis was being sent back to prison, to his solitary cell ( he is around 75 now ) after being assaulted by a prisoner. No bail for Derby-Lewis..

Derby-Lewis..one of Nel's most difficult cases to prove in court. Oscar is a doddle in comparison.

 

[steveml]

I know what you mean but he must have something unbalanced to take survival mode to that extent. And surely it does not explain why he didn't he check if Reeva was in bed and if necessary wake her. Reeva also knows how to handle a gun if asleep was in the most vulnerable of states, and if awake then he could have told her quietly to ring the police, get out, hide, whatever but to just rush out towards the danger and shout out hoping she will hear him ? What if he had been killed ? How would that be protecting her ? Maybe that's why he shot to kill but that will damn him as it seems under SA law he couldn't lawfully shoot blindly through a door not even if at an intruder.

I agree. Aside from the scenarios that have been put forward regarding how the murder took place, those actions are far too irresponsible for leniency on anything less than a murder charge.

 

[steveml]

Not only did OP "walk toward danger" he sportingly gave the armed bad guy/s his location by yelling, "Get out my house!"

And perhaps this could be exactly why Reeva did not respond from inside the toilet?

 

[Viper]

Viper!. a serendipitous moment occurred while Capt Maritz was giving evidence the other day.. Often a ticker tape news broadcast of South African news flits across the screen , but at that moment , the news that ticked its way across was that Clive Derby-Lewis was being sent back to prison, to his solitary cell ( he is around 75 now ) after being assaulted by a prisoner. No bail for Derby-Lewis..

Derby-Lewis..one of Nel's most difficult cases to prove in court. Oscar is a doddle in comparison.

Indeed!!!! :smile:

 

[turaj]

Sorry for such a basic question...but defense starts on Friday...right? And it is expected that OP will be their first witness? Really anxious to see him on the stand...of course mostly on cross but would like to hear Roux lead him through the story to see if there is any possibility that he makes sense . Just want to make sure that it is Friday and that is what is expected. Thanks.

 

[Trooper]

Italian town cancels Pistorius sponsorship
2013-03-03 10:00

Johannesburg - A town in Italy has cancelled its sponsorship of murder-accused paralympian Oscar Pistorius, according to a report on Sunday.

Paolo Urbani, the mayor of the town Gemona, told Rapport newspaper that the town would not continue its five-year sponsorship signed in November.

"The contract with Oscar is suspended. We are not in a hurry to find a new ambassador," said Urbani.

Pistorius was appointed ambassador of the town's sport programme in 2011, and received R170 000 a year, accommodation and expenses in exchange for training there for four months of every year.
The Italian town was mentioned in Pistorius' bail application, after the State quoted from an article in Sarie magazine in which he claimed to have been given a house there.

The State was arguing that he could be a flight risk if granted bail. Pistorius' lawyers denied that he owned a house in the town.

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just because Pistorius's lawyers deny it doesn't mean it was adjudged that he didn't. It merely means they deny it.

Does anyone think that Oscar would be permitted to take his collection of guns and bats and whatnot to Germona, Italy?? yet he didn't seem afraid to go there, unarmed and unbatted, did he?? for four whole months each year..

 

[soozieqtips]

Sorry for such a basic question...but defense starts on Friday...right? And it is expected that OP will be their first witness? Really anxious to see him on the stand...of course mostly on cross but would like to hear Roux lead him through the story to see if there is any possibility that he makes sense . Just want to make sure that it is Friday and that is what is expected. Thanks.

Possibly Friday, but not confirmed I don't think.

 

[MeeBee]

Sorry for such a basic question...but defense starts on Friday...right? And it is expected that OP will be their first witness? Really anxious to see him on the stand...of course mostly on cross but would like to hear Roux lead him through the story to see if there is any possibility that he makes sense . Just want to make sure that it is Friday and that is what is expected. Thanks.

Yes, supposed to start Friday and if OP decides to testify he will be first.

 

[Viper]

The link that Val1 posted has very good quality images; if you have not gone there I can vouch that it is worth the time.

Regarding the bedroom door, the pellet was fired from the inside of the bedroom to the outside (tv room). Here is an image of the air gun pellet exiting the bedroom into the tv room:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/14.png

Since the door also has damage indicative of someone breaking in to the bedroom, it is a strong possibility that Reeva tried to defend herself against this madman. God I hope so, and I wish that she had gone for his gun instead of fleeing to the WC, or better yet had one of her own in her purse! She knew how to handle a semiautomatic pistol and how to shoot, see the link below:

http://m.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0306/Reeva-Steenkamp-photo-shows-her-firing-gun

JMO

 

[Trooper]

'Closest to Pistorius in Gemona was his translator, Anna Pittini. She travelled with him and drove him around.

Oscar’s only Italian was: “Ciao, come stai?” (“Hello, how are you?&#8221'


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He would be in more terrifying circumstances in Italy.. he doesn't speak the language. . if he heard an intruder there, he couldn't even say ' Uscire! Uscire!'
or 'Reeva, chiama la polizia!'

 

[wishIknewmore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wishIknewmore
That's an interesting thought but not so sure it would sound the same as 1 shot. Double tap shooting is something that requires training and practice. It's not a skill everyone that shoots has. Will be interesting to see if this comes up in the defense strategy. If so, we should hear from trainers, friends or at least someone from the gun range of his ability to so.

It wouldn't have to sound like a single shot. Roux bought up that OP could have done 2 double taps.....that got me thinking... maybe due to Mangela's evidence of the stance RS was probably in and the fact one of those was the headshot a double tap could be possible for those two..
Problem is, I'm not clever enough to get further than that so my amazing theory ends there!!! :scared:

:nevermind:
I apologize but the info in my post was incorrect. My husand is into the sport of competitive shooting and I should have talked to him before I posted. He said that anyone can techinically double tap as its just firing 2 shots quickly. The skill level will be shown by combining the timing between the shots and the accuracy. His shots might sound like bam...bam but a true pro will be even quicker. You can take time to line up your first shot but little time for the 2nd one which is where the training comes into play.

OP is a driven competitor and so he probably has practiced it, assuming that the range will allow it. Since OP was aiming at a door, I would think it would have been easier to double tap. In this case, his accuracy was deadly.

I now understand what you meant about hitting her twice before falling and can see how this could happen. Like you though, I can't take it much further either. There's so many unanswered questions!!!!!:banghead:

 

[nastasya]

We can amicably agree to disagree on this. I trust SA to understand their own laws.

Cool... I think your posts are valuable and you're one of the people who make this forum great.

If we all agreed this wouldn't be fun!! Glad you know that nothing is ever personal. If you were here we'd be talking about this over a beer!!