Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Trooper]

I dismiss the washingmachine / tumble dryer story.. no one saw it . It's Oscar bigging himself up, portraying himself, he thinks, as Action Man.

it must have worried his gun supplier bloke, though. a little cloud of worry, no bigger than a fist must have passed across his sky when Oscar was telling him this yarn.

 

[BabaJ]

Here is the hallway passage that he had to go down, terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hallway-from-bedroom-to-bathroom.png

And here is the bathroom passage that he had to go down, even more terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...er-bullet-casing-and-wood-splinters-found.png

And after navigating all of that in the pitch dark he has to turn right and blindly face the armed murderous intruder, who is in the toilet, and fire four shots (accurately) at him killing him dead. It's fantastic! No worries.

Exactly - he had to overcome longer distance with more turns compared to an easier exit via bedroom door (including turning the key in the bedroom door).
And he endures all this without at least stretching his hand to check if his partner is beside him (since it was pitch black).

This is the problem, I keep trying to justify his every move and none of it makes sense ie one thing is out of ordinary but it is what he normally do but then he does something what he does not normally do etc. etc. Maybe he or his defence team have good explanation.

 

[Viper]

I dismiss the washingmachine / tumble dryer story.. no one saw it . It's Oscar bigging himself up, portraying himself, he thinks, as Action Man.

it must have worried his gun supplier bloke, though. a little cloud of worry, no bigger than a fist must have passed across his sky when Oscar was telling him this yarn.

Haven't you heard of the super hero The Blade Runner?

 

[Trooper]

Here is the hallway passage that he had to go down, terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hallway-from-bedroom-to-bathroom.png

And here is the bathroom passage that he had to go down, even more terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...er-bullet-casing-and-wood-splinters-found.png

And after navigating all of that in the pitch dark he has to turn right and blindly face the armed murderous intruder, who is in the toilet, and fire four shots (accurately) at him killing him dead. It's fantastic! No worries.

its uber fantastic.. an unseen target!!.. behind a closed door!!.. and before this intruder gets a shot off too!!.

:juggle:

 

[Viper]

I'm going to go to bed real soon you guys and gals, talk with you tomorrow. Best!

 

[G.bng]

I disagree. I think it sounds reasonable when fearful that an intruder is about to shoot, and he's on his stumps and his bedroom door is locked, preventing quick and certain escape for him and Reeva.

It doesn't matter if he can run on his stumps better than he can walk - it matters whether he was afraid he and Reeva could safely and quickly escape his bedroom (whether on stumps or legs or whatever).

And BTW where is everyone getting this information about how mobile and quick Oscar is on his stumps?

About to shoot with what and at what? Apart from the fact OP hadn't even seen an intruder let alone a gun, the intruder/s he thought he heard were in the loo down a passage and inside a bathroom, not with Reeva and he in the bedroom behind a locked door. (T'would be most ironic if OP were convicted on the evidence of witnesses who heard a woman scream and it had been OP screaming... he would have a lot of time to ponder on the audio mistakes of that night!)

Seriously, I am sure you can see OP had better options before leaving Reeva and rushing armed towards danger on his stumps to pump a loo door full of holes... a bit too quixotic for me! Not only can't I see it as a reasonable response, but neither a wise, safe nor defensive one either.

What about quietly warning your gf in bed? The one you spoke to shortly before and who could have fallen back to sleep and would be in an extremely vulnerable position. What about giving the gf the opportunity for fight or flight, to chose whether to run downstairs and escape or protect herself with a gun hiding in the locked bedroom while waiting for the police? (Reeva did target practice too so was not a neophyte)

And imo it's worse, according to OP's affi he believed there could be more than one intruder so he couldn't know one wasn't lurking in the passage or bathroom ready to shoot whoever stuck their head out? But of course he thought the intruder/s were in the tiny loo together, not the much more likely scenario of one keeping guard while the other peed... or searched the toilet for valuables! And what if OP had been killed. Where would that have left a sleeping Reeva... dead I suppose, so no change there then!

No, bad jokes apart, what about phoning security, (he paid to live in a 24/7 guarded estate), or in a last instance the police? (Or maybe better in the first instance?) And while waiting whichever's arrival, what about putting on his legs while Reeva aimed a gun at the locked door? And if he dared go down a dark passage on stumps, what about going down the stairs and out... I mean if the intruders had to climb through an upstairs window and they were in the loo it would be reasonable to think that no others had entered the house on the ground floor... ah, but methinks reasonable was not in OP's mind at least not that night!

Oooops... I almost forgot. Search for YT video "The fastest man on no legs", you can see OP briefly as a kid running around on his stumps, and his mother, OP, and others telling about all the sports he did and how nothing could stop him doing everything other kids did. There is an interview also where he puts his legs on... super quick, but I can't remember where I saw it, and there are many YT videos of double amputees showing how they can walk, skip, run and put on their prosthetics, etc.

 

[luvmygarden]

Samantha didn't testify that Oscar grabbed a gun on the two occasions he thought he 'heard a noise in the bathroom'...

I believe that when he writes out this statement re that noise, he is replaying his successful former experiences of 'hearing that noise' but with a totally different outcome than the one he is confronted with..

and.. you know.. Samantha didn't question his hearing of that noise.. she testified she didn't hear it.. . Oscar must have thought no one else would question it either. why not use the same phrase?? .. and oddly, since he heard it before, he says, in the middle of the night, why not immediately, and without further ado put the biggest bars in Pretoria over that window?

A real worry wart would have stationed bucket of boiling oil right at the bathroom window. and of course, would never leave it open and the blinds half way down. And go to sleep.

And did he yell for Samantha to ring security those times? I don't remember her saying he asked her to.

 

[Trooper]

And did he yell for Samantha to ring security those times? I don't remember her saying he did ask her to.

nooooo.. :notgood:

 

[Forensics]

Sorry but OP is in my opinion very disabled without his prosthetics. He is a very fit man but without his prosthetics I believe what I have read about him feeling vulnerable at night in bed in his stumps. The fasted man in no legs ran with blades on, not on his stumps. I too have worked with disabled people and have witnessed how frightened they can become in certain situations. Until it is proved otherwise I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he feels very vulnerable without his prosthetics at night in bed.

Yes I agree he may well have felt vulnerable without his prosthetics...that seems logical. So if you follow Oscar's version, you would have to ask would a vulnerable person (albiet armed) put themselves in a position of coming face to face with an athletic, two legged intruder that could well have been armed themselves. At that stage he would not have know that they were locked in the toilet only that they were in the bathroom. Moreover, his shouting out to Reeva to call for help would certainly have alerted the intruder to Oscar's location and intent. If his version was true, Oscar took a great risk in putting himself in such a position.

 

[G.bng]

I appreciate and respect that. Then surely the same stance should be taken when it was suggested that OP shouldn't have gone after the intruder without his prosthesis on? If he is perfectly capable, there should be no problem with him going after an intruder in the manner that he did.

I've no problem with that as long as the discussion regarding degree of disability remains consistent throughout the events of the shooting.

Nice to see we agree, but not sure why you direct the "admonition" at me because I have never in my recollection criticised OP for not putting on his prothesis to go after his imaginary intruder. Indeed, from what I know, have seen, and read about him, he seems extremely capable without them

My problem is that he appears to be using his stumps to avoid facing up to his actions. As far as I'm concerned, going with his story, and considering how quickly he can don his prothesis, OP chose to leave a position of relative safety in a locked room, with a gun to aim at the door, several mobile phones with which to call security/police, and several places to hide and/or ambush an intruder, to go on his stumps towards danger, down a dark passage carrying a gun where one or more intruders could have been lying in wait, and shoot two double taps, (according to him), through a closed door in the dark. I can't see these as the actions of a frightened and very vulnerable person nor that he was scared enough to say truthfully that the noise of the window latch "filled me with terror". jmo

 

[K.T]

Hello All,
First time posting, thank you ver much Websleuths Admin for letting me join in! Been reading and lurking for ages. Apologies in advance if I get the format all wrong.

Okay, I think Oscar Pistorius is guilty of murder, his story is just too strange/doesn't seem to pass sniff test. Whether or not he gets convicted though, I have no idea, looking forward to seeing what the defense team has next in store.

While I was waiting to join I wrote a really long screed about why I think Pistorius shot intentionally at Steenkamp. I think I have to break it down in smaller chunks to make it easier to read and post it sporadically... while I get used to be able to *talk* to all your fascinating posts.

 

[minor4th]

He does not know at this point that anyone is in the toilet. From the trial plea: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars." Nothing about the toilet yet - just the bathroom. What does he do? He retrieves his gun on the other side of the bed, reverses, then makes a sharp right and goes charging down the hall to the bathroom screaming. Not just announcing that he's there to the "terrifying" intruder, who could be lurking right around the corner with a loaded gun, but basically yelling "one two three, here I come, make sure you aim down the hallway!" (From the affadavit: "On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.") Remember, it's only after he gets to the bathroom that the toilet comes into play: "I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom." This is closer to total nonsense than total sense to me.

Thanks. I need to go back and read this plea statement again because what you're saying is different than what I thought I remembered :waitasec:

Now I'm confused about the sequence of his account, and I thought I had it sorted out.

Will comment further after I read the statement again ....

 

[Forensics]

:seeya:Welome K.T to Websleuths.....I joined not so long ago myself and have found it a fun and educational experience. Hope this is the first of many posts.

 

[G.bng]

Yes but the point is he could have put them on, and he also had managed to bring 2 fans from the balcony without them.

And do a lot more, such as, according to him, shoot 2 double taps at a door in the dark, etc.

 

[MeeBee]

What's total nonsense is the claim that his actions are done from a state of fear. It's more like he has a chip on his shoulder and can't wait to find an excuse to use his gun to kill somebody.

Even if his story is true, it's still premeditated murder.

I don't know if it's total nonsense, I suppose it's a combination of things, including fear, anger, itchy finger, you're right Nastaya.

 

[K.T]

Nothing I am saying or quoting from articles and testimony is telling or individually significant, yet collectively, I think its instructive to understanding motivations for shooting Reeva:

Pistorius worrying background with firearms.
He seems to have patterns of behavior in how he handles guns and shoots as emotionally driven:

- He uses guns when he is angry. Fresco and Taylor suggest he shot the gun out of the sunroof because a policeman dared to touch and unload his gun “you don’t touch a man’s gun” (Freud alert!) and then shot out of “spite”. Obviously uncaring that celebratory gunfire or random ‘air’ shooting can kill, over long distances, innocent people.

- He uses guns in stress and as a stress relief. In the New York Times profile he recounts shooting at a gun ranges to help his with his insomnia.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
(Many lines in that profile are revealing. On an athlete’s disposition : “he believes himself to be royalty of a certain kind.”)

- He uses guns as a sign of his masculinity and authority, part of the reason why he collect guns and artillery and exhibits them to his other gun interested buddies and even the NYTimes reporter. Also, he used guns when he felt slighted by police; he wanted to shoot at a “robot.” Samantha Taylor testified that Pistorius got out of his car and not so much out of out of fear but to threaten, with his gun, occupants of a possibly following car. Mindboggling, the occupants may just have been photographers or his fans.

- He uses guns and shoots in a reckless manner in casual settings. In the restaurant shooting he felt shame but still wanted got others to lie and cover for him. And with all his cold glances (anecdotal tweets from journalists covering trial) at Fresco he even may have wanted his friends to lie about his gun use in open court.

- He uses guns in an irrational manner. It seems irrational to go into “code red” about a washing machine noise and even more irrational to discuss this behavior by tweeting about it online, to NYTimes and the official, Rens, who examined his firearm proficiency and responsibility. The level he thinks that behavior is normal, let alone thinking the public would support it, shows a strange reasoning and lacking some sense of reality.

(nb: I wrote this before the last two days of trial, but I'll just put it out there )

 

[minor4th]

<snip?

Oooops... I almost forgot. Search for YT video "The fastest man on no legs", you can see OP briefly as a kid running around on his stumps, and his mother, OP, and others telling about all the sports he did and how nothing could stop him doing everything other kids did. There is an interview also where he puts his legs on... super quick, but I can't remember where I saw it, and there are many YT videos of double amputees showing how they can walk, skip, run and put on their prosthetics, etc.

<respectfully snipped to address this one point>

I watched the video today and it shows a toddler Oscar wobbling around on the beach on stumps - not running, not skiing or playing football or tennis like the other kids. He took up sports when he was older and fitted properly with prosthetics.

I haven't seen anything at all that shows OP is fast and agile while maneuvering on his stumps as an adult. In fact his ex testified that he has to hold on to things for balance sometimes and has limited mobility on his stumps.

 

[MeeBee]

And did he yell for Samantha to ring security those times? I don't remember her saying he asked her to.

No, because in those cases, he wasn't sure what he was hearing. On v-day, he heard the window open and probably someone rustling around in the toilet, things that can only be attributed to a human. A bit of a different situation.

ETA: in my opinion! Not stated as fact jus wanna clear that up!

 

[MeeBee]

Hello All,
First time posting, thank you ver much Websleuths Admin for letting me join in! Been reading and lurking for ages. Apologies in advance if I get the format all wrong.

Okay, I think Oscar Pistorius is guilty of murder, his story is just too strange/doesn't seem to pass sniff test. Whether or not he gets convicted though, I have no idea, looking forward to seeing what the defense team has next in store.

While I was waiting to join I wrote a really long screed about why I think Pistorius shot intentionally at Steenkamp. I think I have to break it down in smaller chunks to make it easier to read and post it sporadically... while I get used to be able to *talk* to all your fascinating posts.

:welcome:

 

[Carol70]

But if that was his fear, why would he run towards the door on his stumps to confront that danger? He could have gotten Reeva, his gun, and left the home. He could have hit the panic button, called security or the cops. He did NONE of those logical things one does when in mortal fear.

If there really had been armed intruders in his toilet, and he shot through the door, he would be dead too now most likely.

This I cannot answer I'm afraid but the are a lot of documented cases where men have lost their lives in trying to protect their families and possessions... why do they do that when more than likely, if they remain calm, still and just let the robbers take what they had come for...maybe they would still be alive?
Just one case in point: I imagine there was a lot of adrenalin and not much rational thoughts going through the minds of these 2 men when they took on armed intruders when they themselves were unarmed. I'm betting if one of these men had a gun, there would have been a lot of firing going on through that glass door. OP did have a gun and apparently had every intention of protecting his property and life.
http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/shot-artist-died-a-hero-1.1628058#.UzOtvScaySM
There is a ton of information on what to do when confronted by an intruder, do not speak to them, do not look at them, give them what they want, remain calm and civil if possible and you should walk out unharmed but from what I've read and heard, very few follow this advice when it comes down to the crunch.