Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[minor4th]

Ahh yes thanks!!! I thought it was a contradiction from him but in his plea he was just elaborating that the noise he stated he heard in his affidavit was the window sliding open.

Yep, I have been through the statements with a fine toothed comb looking for that eureka moment where I find irreconcilable discrepancies - but alas, there are none that I can find that couldn't be adequately explained.

 

[minor4th]

I wonder if the witnesses mentioned on page 5 were the ones not called to the stand??

They called van Merwe and that's one that he said the state had disavowed her first statement.

 

[Carol70]

They called van Merwe and that's one that he said the state had disavowed her first statement.

Yes but the 2 witnesses mentioned who lived closer than VD Merwe and were awake at the time but didn't hear anything prior to the shooting? Lol, have to go check timelines because not sure if that could be the Stipps or another neighbour.

And yes, I've read the plea twice now, nothing stands out for me too.

 

[steveml]

Italian town cancels Pistorius sponsorship
2013-03-03 10:00

Johannesburg - A town in Italy has cancelled its sponsorship of murder-accused paralympian Oscar Pistorius, according to a report on Sunday.

Paolo Urbani, the mayor of the town Gemona, told Rapport newspaper that the town would not continue its five-year sponsorship signed in November.

"The contract with Oscar is suspended. We are not in a hurry to find a new ambassador," said Urbani.

Pistorius was appointed ambassador of the town's sport programme in 2011, and received R170 000 a year, accommodation and expenses in exchange for training there for four months of every year.
The Italian town was mentioned in Pistorius' bail application, after the State quoted from an article in Sarie magazine in which he claimed to have been given a house there.

The State was arguing that he could be a flight risk if granted bail. Pistorius' lawyers denied that he owned a house in the town.

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just because Pistorius's lawyers deny it doesn't mean it was adjudged that he didn't. It merely means they deny it.

Does anyone think that Oscar would be permitted to take his collection of guns and bats and whatnot to Germona, Italy?? yet he didn't seem afraid to go there, unarmed and unbatted, did he?? for four whole months each year..

So we're in agreement then, this is absolutely not OP's house.

The state claimed it was OP's house because they read it in a magazine. You could not make some of this stuff up. :facepalm:

The nature of a house being available in Italy for training is about as big a sensation as me being on trial. and the prosecution claiming I could be a bail risk because I have a 105 yr old gran living in Iceland.

It really is a non-story, other than showing how the state are trying to influence public opinion via the media.

 

[MeeBee]

How close is Mrs. Van der Merwe in relation to OP and in relation to the distance of the other neighbors we've heard from so far? I know the Stipp's are the closest and the Burgers were much further. What about VDM? Thanks.

 

[steveml]

Hello All,
First time posting, thank you ver much Websleuths Admin for letting me join in! Been reading and lurking for ages. Apologies in advance if I get the format all wrong.

Okay, I think Oscar Pistorius is guilty of murder, his story is just too strange/doesn't seem to pass sniff test. Whether or not he gets convicted though, I have no idea, looking forward to seeing what the defense team has next in store.

While I was waiting to join I wrote a really long screed about why I think Pistorius shot intentionally at Steenkamp. I think I have to break it down in smaller chunks to make it easier to read and post it sporadically... while I get used to be able to *talk* to all your fascinating posts.

:wagon:

 

[Carol70]

So we're in agreement then, this is absolutely not OP's house.

The state claimed it was OP's house because they read it in a magazine. You could not make some of this stuff up. :facepalm:

The nature of a house being available in Italy for training is about as big a sensation as me being on trial. and the prosecution claiming I could be a bail risk because I have a 105 yr old gran living in Iceland.

.

Oh LOLOL...:giggle:

 

[canny]

No doubt he will suffer a lifetime

In prison with real Burglars.

 

[Carol70]

How close is Mrs. Van der Merwe in relation to OP and in relation to the distance of the other neighbors we've heard from so far? I know the Stipp's are the closest and the Burgers were much further. What about VDM? Thanks.

I believe 105m, I can't recall how far Burger was away...would be nice if someone could put the distances of the various neighbours in relation to OP together for comparison.

If anyone has made notes on this on hand, please share!

 

[MeeBee]

I believe 105m, I can't recall how far Burger was away...would be nice if someone could put the distances of the various neighbours in relation to OP together for comparison.

If anyone has made notes on this on hand, please share!

I believe the Burgers were around 500 feet, which translates to around 152 meters.

This is very interesting to me. I think if Oscar's immediate neighbors testify that they did not hear any loud arguing leading up to the shooting, but VDM did, there's a possibility that she heard an argument happening closer to her house and not OP and RS. But I need to know more.

 

[MeeBee]

And I hope those neighbors testify.

 

[james83]

I did not mean for it to sound like they were locked in by a third party - only that unlocking the door was another step to take to get away safely.

But if he really thought an intruder was about to come out of the toilet shooting at him and Reeva, it makes total sense to me that he would think the only sure way to protect himself and Reeva would be to get his gun and get in a position to shoot the burglar before the burglar could come out shooting.

Try to look at it from the perspective that he really did believe that an intruder was about to come out of the toilet room shooting. If he really believed that, then all of his actions make sense to me.

All his actions make sense including not identifying who was in the toilet and firing 4 times?.

 

[Val1]

I just feel like to claim someone that is missing both legs is not disabled is just a plain biased denial of reality. Of course he is disabled.

Just for the record, he'd not missing both legs.... that implies he has nothing below the hip when in fact he has both thighs, knees and upper tibia's.

Anyway, it's OP himself that has claimed for years that he's not disabled so talk to him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/9869484/Oscar-Pistorius-arrested-after-death-of-his-girlfriend-profile-of-a-Paralympic-star.html

“I’m not disabled, I just don’t have any legs,” he has always asserted.

 

[MeeBee]

Just for the record, he'd not missing both legs.... that implies he has nothing below the hip when in fact he has both thighs, knees and upper tibia's.

Anyway, it's OP himself that has claimed for years that he's not disabled so talk to him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/9869484/Oscar-Pistorius-arrested-after-death-of-his-girlfriend-profile-of-a-Paralympic-star.html

Ok, missing his lower legs...:facepalm:

 

[steveml]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wishIknewmore
That's an interesting thought but not so sure it would sound the same as 1 shot. Double tap shooting is something that requires training and practice. It's not a skill everyone that shoots has. Will be interesting to see if this comes up in the defense strategy. If so, we should hear from trainers, friends or at least someone from the gun range of his ability to so.




:nevermind:
I apologize but the info in my post was incorrect. My husand is into the sport of competitive shooting and I should have talked to him before I posted. He said that anyone can techinically double tap as its just firing 2 shots quickly. The skill level will be shown by combining the timing between the shots and the accuracy. His shots might sound like bam...bam but a true pro will be even quicker. You can take time to line up your first shot but little time for the 2nd one which is where the training comes into play.

OP is a driven competitor and so he probably has practiced it, assuming that the range will allow it. Since OP was aiming at a door, I would think it would have been easier to double tap. In this case, his accuracy was deadly.

I now understand what you meant about hitting her twice before falling and can see how this could happen. Like you though, I can't take it much further either. There's so many unanswered questions!!!!!:banghead:

Thank you for such a clear explanation.

I think that we can determine from this that it would be extremely difficult to ascertain the nature of the shots. They could be rapid and fairly accurate double-taps, or they could be indivdual. We're not aware of OP's skill level, and even if he was good, it doesn't mean that he's good every single time he shoots. A fraction of a movement leads to inches from the target.

If we then add to all this the fact that he wasn't in a normal shooting position as he would be on a shooting range, he was on his stumps, in the dark...

I have to conclude that the following is possible.

1. Double-tap, double-tap (two rapid shots - slight pause - two rapid shots).

2. Double-tap, shot, shot (two rapid shots - slight pause - shot - slight pause - shot).

3. Shot, double-tap, shot (shot - slight pause - two rapid shots - slight pause - shot.

4. Shot, shot, double-tap (shot - slight pause - shot - slight pause - two rapid shots)

5. Shot, shot, shot, shot (shot - slight pause - shot - slight pause - shot - slight pause - shot).

6. Any combination of no. 5 three, with any possible length of time between the shots :dunno:

Now, all that needs to be done is to match the above with what the witnesses heard. :wink:

 

[steveml]

Nothing I am saying or quoting from articles and testimony is telling or individually significant, yet collectively, I think its instructive to understanding motivations for shooting Reeva:

Pistorius worrying background with firearms.
He seems to have patterns of behavior in how he handles guns and shoots as emotionally driven:

- He uses guns when he is angry. Fresco and Taylor suggest he shot the gun out of the sunroof because a policeman dared to touch and unload his gun “you don’t touch a man’s gun” (Freud alert!) and then shot out of “spite”. Obviously uncaring that celebratory gunfire or random ‘air’ shooting can kill, over long distances, innocent people.

- He uses guns in stress and as a stress relief. In the New York Times profile he recounts shooting at a gun ranges to help his with his insomnia.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
(Many lines in that profile are revealing. On an athlete’s disposition : “he believes himself to be royalty of a certain kind.”)

- He uses guns as a sign of his masculinity and authority, part of the reason why he collect guns and artillery and exhibits them to his other gun interested buddies and even the NYTimes reporter. Also, he used guns when he felt slighted by police; he wanted to shoot at a “robot.” Samantha Taylor testified that Pistorius got out of his car and not so much out of out of fear but to threaten, with his gun, occupants of a possibly following car. Mindboggling, the occupants may just have been photographers or his fans.

- He uses guns and shoots in a reckless manner in casual settings. In the restaurant shooting he felt shame but still wanted got others to lie and cover for him. And with all his cold glances (anecdotal tweets from journalists covering trial) at Fresco he even may have wanted his friends to lie about his gun use in open court.

- He uses guns in an irrational manner. It seems irrational to go into “code red” about a washing machine noise and even more irrational to discuss this behavior by tweeting about it online, to NYTimes and the official, Rens, who examined his firearm proficiency and responsibility. The level he thinks that behavior is normal, let alone thinking the public would support it, shows a strange reasoning and lacking some sense of reality.

(nb: I wrote this before the last two days of trial, but I'll just put it out there )

Good post K.T

I think that is why it's so important for Judge Masipa to establish what state of mind he was in before and during the shooting. Was it a protective OP or was it an angry OP?

Those two are the most influential to the case.

 

[steveml]

Ok, missing his lower legs...:facepalm:

It's ok, we get that wrapped up in the case - we have it in our heads and know what me meant to say ourselves.

I knew what you meant MeeBee :wink:

 

[Carol70]

All his actions make sense including not identifying who was in the toilet and firing 4 times?.

If one is thinking rationally, then no, nothing makes sense.

 

[Really?]

I just feel like to claim someone that is missing both legs is not disabled is just a plain biased denial of reality. Of course he is disabled.

he has legs........

 

[Huna]

Just for the record, he'd not missing both legs.... that implies he has nothing below the hip when in fact he has both thighs, knees and upper tibia's.

Anyway, it's OP himself that has claimed for years that he's not disabled so talk to him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/9869484/Oscar-Pistorius-arrested-after-death-of-his-girlfriend-profile-of-a-Paralympic-star.html

Also, as everybody knows, he competed in the able-bodied Olympics. So he's not what you would call 'disabled' in the traditional sense.