Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[Val1]

Not sure who it was that was asking about Dr. Stipp's description of OP to his wife, but I came across this and it seemed to fit the description.

 

[Val1]

So we're in agreement then, this is absolutely not OP's house.

The state claimed it was OP's house because they read it in a magazine. You could not make some of this stuff up. :facepalm:

The nature of a house being available in Italy for training is about as big a sensation as me being on trial. and the prosecution claiming I could be a bail risk because I have a 105 yr old gran living in Iceland.

It really is a non-story, other than showing how the state are trying to influence public opinion via the media.

I doubt they claimed it just because it was in a magazine... more likely because the article stated that OP said it himself. So unless you're claiming the state knew weeks before the murder to have this interview done....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/last-oscar-pistorius-interview-before-1723955

He also spoke of how he spends four months every year living in his home in Gerona, Italy – contradicting his lawyer’s submission during the bail hearing that he owns no such property.

Pistorius said the local mayor had even built a running track for him.

 

[Carol70]

I believe the Burgers were around 500 feet, which translates to around 152 meters.

This is very interesting to me. I think if Oscar's immediate neighbors testify that they did not hear any loud arguing leading up to the shooting, but VDM did, there's a possibility that she heard an argument happening closer to her house and not OP and RS. But I need to know more.

A quick brief summary:

The Stipps - 70m away
Estelle VD - 105m away
The Burgers- 170m away

Stipp woke at just past 3am to shots fired and screams, at 3.15 called security and then heard further shots at 3.17.

The burgers woke at 3am to woman screaming, yells for help, and then 4 shots fired. More screaming and then further shots at 3.17.

Estelle woke at to loud argument, that lasted an hour and tried to go back to sleep, waking again at 3am to bangs/shots fired and then silence. **im not sure if she heard further shots/bangs at the 3.17 time point because I'm just using the timeline and news article to quickly give me reference and not her actual testimony**

Van der Merwe woke up yet again, at around 3am when she heard four loud noises. But when she was asked to explain, she said they were loud bangs.

After the four sounds, she said there was total silence, no more voices.

Her husband had also woken up, and said that the noises had to be gunshots.

Her husband looked out of the window, but couldn't see anything. They then heard a commotion, Van der Merwe told the court.

After struggling to explain how the shots sounded, Van der Merwe said they sounded like "bang, bang, bang... That's the best I can do," she said.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...itness-tells-of-shouts-1.1656063#.UzPixicaySM

 

[steveml]

I doubt they claimed it just because it was in a magazine... more likely because the article stated that OP said it himself. So unless you're claiming the state knew weeks before the murder to have this interview done....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/last-oscar-pistorius-interview-before-1723955

The conclusion is the same. The state were wrong.

I'm sure the SA state have every power available to check the background information for a citizen. Certainly far more than the a glossy magazine or The Daily Mirror. :facepalm:

 

[james83]

A quick brief summary:

The Stipps - 70m away
Estelle VD - 105m away
The Burgers- 170m away

Stipp woke at just past 3am to shots fired and screams, at 3.15 called security and then heard further shots at 3.17.

The burgers woke at 3am to woman screaming, yells for help, and then 4 shots fired. More screaming and then further shots at 3.17.

Estelle woke at to loud argument, that lasted an hour and tried to go back to sleep, waking again at 3am to bangs/shots fired and then silence. **im not sure if she heard further shots/bangs at the 3.17 time point because I'm just using the timeline and news article to quickly give me reference and not her actual testimony**


http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...itness-tells-of-shouts-1.1656063#.UzPixicaySM

The Burgers only heard 1 set of shots.

 

[kittychi]

The conclusion is the same. The state were wrong.

I'm sure the SA state have every power available to check the background information for a citizen. Certainly far more than the a glossy magazine or The Daily Mirror. :facepalm:

Taking Roux's word for it doesn't seem any better source than a magazine. Or is there another source?

 

[Carol70]

The Burgers only heard 1 set of shots.

I took the info quickly from the timeline thread...if there are errors or new info to be added, it would help to let the author know so it can be amended as it's pretty useful to have the timeline.

Timeline Thread ***NO DISCUSSION*** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[steveml]

I believe the Burgers were around 500 feet, which translates to around 152 meters.

This is very interesting to me. I think if Oscar's immediate neighbors testify that they did not hear any loud arguing leading up to the shooting, but VDM did, there's a possibility that she heard an argument happening closer to her house and not OP and RS. But I need to know more.

Good point.

The prosecution needed Van De Merwe to make their case. From what I'm aware, she is the only one that has testified that there was arguing. When the tests were done in OP's house of a man and a woman screaming at one another, she said she could hear nothing.

This could become a very real problem for Nel. A witness isn't going to be presented by the defense who did hear any arguing.

 

[Val1]

The conclusion is the same. The state were wrong.

I'm sure the SA state have every power available to check the background information for a citizen. Certainly far more than the a glossy magazine or The Daily Mirror. :facepalm:

Even in another country? Perhaps given more time but quite possibly not in time for the hearing since that article came out not long before I believe.

 

[steveml]

This is something I haven't quite got my head around yet .
Her possessions were at the left hand side of the bed (sandals and bag ) but OP stated he had slept on the left because of his shoulder injury .
He would normally sleep on the right side .
There has got to be some reason for this . Maybe linked to wear the gun or its holster was .
Can't quite put my finger on it but hope to have an epiphany soon .
I bet Nel has everything figured out . He has not seemed anything other than calm generally even with the cross examination of Batman !!
Which I had to go and lie down after watching that lol

I've not got this one too straight in my head at the moment. Things would be much clearer if people just kept to their own sides of the bed full stop! They don't realise how much of a spanner they throw in the works by changing routine. Just as we think we're getting somewhere on the case.
:banghead:

 

[steveml]

Even in another country? Perhaps given more time but quite possibly not in time for the hearing since that article came out not long before I believe.

To be honest I'd be very surprised if they really would use that as a source of information.

...and my comment did get a little bit of a laugh.:innocent:

 

[Carol70]

I've not got this one too straight in my head at the moment. Things would be much clearer if people just kept to their own sides of the bed full stop! They don't realise how much of a spanner they throw in the works by changing routine. Just as we think we're getting somewhere on the case.
:banghead:

Lol yep..and quite frankly, I wouldn't care how sore my husbands shoulder was, he wouldn't get MY side of the bed. I would not be able to sleep on his side at all!

That being said, I think people must also stop assuming that when Reeva got out of bed, she actually climbed out on the side she was sleeping( meaning she was inches from OP and the balcony). She could have just as easily have scooted across to the other side of the bed and got off to go to the bathroom from that side. Our bathroom door is on my husbands side, if I'm in bed and he is not. I just cross over to his side to go to the loo instead of walking all the way around it. Just a thought.

 

[Val1]

Lol yep..and quite frankly, I wouldn't care how sore my husbands shoulder was, he wouldn't get MY side of the bed. I would not be able to sleep on his side at all!

That being said, I think people must also stop assuming that when Reeva got out of bed, she actually climbed out on the side she was sleeping( meaning she was inches from OP and the balcony). She could have just as easily have scooted across to the other side of the bed and got off to go to the bathroom from that side. Our bathroom door is on my husbands side, if I'm in bed and he is not. I just cross over to his side to go to the loo instead of walking all the way around it. Just a thought.

The problem isn't which side RS may have gotten out of bed, it's that OP was within a foot or two of the right side of the bed when he first came in with the fan/s before he said he closed the doors, blinds, and curtains and yet didn't notice her gone AND when he went to retrieve his gun from under the left side of the bed, which would entail having his face right beside the mattress, still didn't notice that the bed was empty. Just seems implausible what with the duvet on the floor and nothing but a light coloured sheet and a few pillows on the bed because if it was so hot that he needed to bring the fans in to blow on them, surely the duvet had already been kicked to the floor. As for the slippers, I'd say they're a non-starter simply because they were on the wrong side of the bed to start with, if you believe OP's story about which side he had been sleeping on.

 

[steveml]

Taking Roux's word for it doesn't seem any better source than a magazine. Or is there another source?

Nel claimed OP had his own house in Italy, and quoted from an article in Sarie magazine. Roux indicated this was nonsense, and that was proved to be the case.

It was silly really, it just became a point scoring contest for the state in which they lost. Well, they didn't lose really, they achieved exactly what they wanted and just courted further public opinion.

Eeh, the games these people play. :notgood:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Lol yep..and quite frankly, I wouldn't care how sore my husbands shoulder was, he wouldn't get MY side of the bed. I would not be able to sleep on his side at all!

That being said, I think people must also stop assuming that when Reeva got out of bed, she actually climbed out on the side she was sleeping( meaning she was inches from OP and the balcony). She could have just as easily have scooted across to the other side of the bed and got off to go to the bathroom from that side. Our bathroom door is on my husbands side, if I'm in bed and he is not. I just cross over to his side to go to the loo instead of walking all the way around it. Just a thought.

Yes I did make that point yesterday . I considered both options .Shuffling over to the other side of the bed to get up would still take a little time and and only saves 3or four steps ? after which there is still the issue with the walk to the bathroom .With the doors and curtains open you don't think there would be any audible noise ?How long do you estimate it would take someone to pick up a fan ?
The timing seems off to me regardless JMO and then there is the issue that as she knew he was up and about why not put the bedside light on .
I did consider that she might have used the light on her mobile to guide her but then why was it not in the cubicle with her .
To me his version requires just one stretch of the imagination after the other .
I will of course listen with as much interest to the defence and may well then have a different opinion. I do not have a closed mind on this but am questioning the plausibility of things that we have seen and heard so far .
To be honest bearing in mind the prosecution has just finished I would be very surprised if I didn't believe that it was likely that OP's version was questionable because you would hope that a seasoned prosecutor like Nel wouldn't have brought the charges and just opted for the murder charge .
It is a case of wait and see what we hear next because I am sure we will all have an awful more lot to discuss and consider before making our minds up

 

[Mango33]

Interesting too is the calls Osacr made that early morning...yes he called Stander, Netcare, voicemail, Justin, Dad and then Piet. Who was Piet? He is a lawyer. Straight up! Grieving for his wasted girl, you havent even got her blood off your body but dad tells you to ring Piet.....the first thing you do is lawyer up. Yep. Piet Pistorius Criminal Lawyer.


4:01 - Voice call - outgoing - from a number saves as "Deco", revealed to belong to Heinreich Pistorius
4:09 to 4:10 - Voice calls - outgoing - to a number saved as "Piet", lasting between 3 and 11 seconds
4:11 - Voice call - incoming - from Piet, lasting 49s

As posters have already noted those calls were to his long-time manager Peet Van Zyl. However, according to Peet, the 4 am calls were made to him by Clarice Stander using OP's phone, not OP himself.

I think this adds weight to the opinion that perhaps Clarice Stander is the reason the 5th phone walked off the crime scene.

From Van Zyl's CNN interview:

"The sprinter's agent has also spoken for the first time about the 4 a.m. call he received telling him there had been a shooting at the track star's home.

"It was the estate where Oscar (was) staying at, the estate manager's daughter phoned me from Oscar's phone. So I picked up the phone and saw it was Oscar's number and thought it was him phoning me. And just had this voice of a girl frantically on the other side shouting, 'Please, you have to rush over here, you have to come to Oscar's house,'" Peet van Zyl told CNN in an exclusive interview.

"I initially thought it was Oscar that has been shot. She said, 'No, no, no, no. Reeva's been shot.' She explained then to me basically just briefly what happened. And yeah, total shock obviously. So I had to jump in the car and rush through to Pretoria."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/31/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-uncle-interview/

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The problem isn't which side RS may have gotten out of bed, it's that OP was within a foot or two of the right side of the bed when he first came in with the fan/s before he said he closed the doors, blinds, and curtains and yet didn't notice her gone AND when he went to retrieve his gun from under the left side of the bed, which would entail having his face right beside the mattress, still didn't notice that the bed was empty. Just seems implausible what with the duvet on the floor and nothing but a light coloured sheet and a few pillows on the bed because if it was so hot that he needed to bring the fans in to blow on them, surely the duvet had already been kicked to the floor. As for the slippers, I'd say they're a non-starter simply because they were on the wrong side of the bed to start with, if you believe OP's story about which side he had been sleeping on.

Yes I agree . He was literally within touching distance when he first heard the noise . And you still have to bear in mind that when he came back in he was facing the bed with the fan in his hands and the curtains were still open . When he put the fan down and turned back towards the doors he also was facing the bed . So I do feel he had ample opportunity to see she was not in the bed . He thought by saying that he closed the doors drew the blinds and the curtains his story would be more believable from the point of view about fear and darkness and also he had to explain the time it would have taken Reeva to get into the bathroom for when he says he heard the noise but in actual fact if he had said nothing at all about the curtains his story would have been more believable because he could have said he parted them to one side whilst he went onto the balcony .

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I've not got this one too straight in my head at the moment. Things would be much clearer if people just kept to their own sides of the bed full stop! They don't realise how much of a spanner they throw in the works by changing routine. Just as we think we're getting somewhere on the case.
:banghead:

So disappointed Columbo ...... hasn't figured it out yet lol
Columbo always figures it out
In my experience when something seems odd and out of place there is usually
A very good reason for it . The side of the bed issue is definitely on my radar as well at the moment .
As I said yesterday it makes his version harder to believe .
Why want to prove Reeva was on the right ?
Could it be linked to the blood on the duvet ?
Gun position ?
Do you have any other ideas at all ?

Just adding here why the desperation for the watch after the shooting and also the dongle from the safe .
Has that been brought up in the trial anywhere? Was it ever produced to the prosecutors?
If it was maybe there was evidence of another house purchase on it somewhere ?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

As posters have already noted those calls were to his long-time manager Peet Van Zyl. However, according to Peet, the 4 am calls were made to him by Clarice Stander using OP's phone, not OP himself.

I think this adds weight to the opinion that perhaps Clarice Stander is the reason the 5th phone walked off the crime scene.

From Van Zyl's CNN interview:

"The sprinter's agent has also spoken for the first time about the 4 a.m. call he received telling him there had been a shooting at the track star's home.

"It was the estate where Oscar (was) staying at, the estate manager's daughter phoned me from Oscar's phone. So I picked up the phone and saw it was Oscar's number and thought it was him phoning me. And just had this voice of a girl frantically on the other side shouting, 'Please, you have to rush over here, you have to come to Oscar's house,'" Peet van Zyl told CNN in an exclusive interview.

"I initially thought it was Oscar that has been shot. She said, 'No, no, no, no. Reeva's been shot.' She explained then to me basically just briefly what happened. And yeah, total shock obviously. So I had to jump in the car and rush through to Pretoria."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/31/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-uncle-interview/

I would imagine that if the defence call here the prosecution will want her to explain why it left the scene . I could be wrong but I think she is a lawyer so should have known better but I suppose she must have been mortified by what she witnessed when she arrived on the scene so that could account for some of the time it was missing .

 

[kaos]

If the duvet was on the floor (presumably at the bottom of the bed) where were his prosthetics? I thought they were supposed to be kept at the bottom of the bed but Samantha Taylor says he always had them at the side of the bed.

If they threw the duvet off because it was such a hot night then if the prosthetics were at the base of the bed, the duvet would surely have covered them making it harder for OP to find them.