Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[MeeBee]

Ugh, the WC door opens outwards not inwards, there was no reason to brace the door because it was supported by the entire door frame all the way around three sides and by the locking mechanism. :facepalm:

Um, so she wasn't holding the door then. So that point is moot now. Gotcha.

 

[BlueShoe]

Also, if Mrs. Stipp was already awake for a bit before the first set of bangs, and Oscar really was chasing Reeva all over the house, why did she only start hearing screaming after the bangs? Wouldn't
she have woken up to the sound of a woman screaming already? Before the bangs, she heard nothing.

Perhaps before the shots, Reeva was not screaming but just talking, saying something like "Oscar, please calm down, let's just talk this over," even if he were pursuing her. Her pleas to Oscar would not have been heard.

 

[MeeBee]

I really struggle with the idea that Mrs Stipp wakes up, looks across at the alarm, and immediately hears the shots (albeit it only 3).

If anyone was expected to believe something like that regarding OP's statement it would be ridiculed with sarcasm.

Yes, I'm beginning to call this part into question. The fact that she heard nothing before the shots, not a man or a woman, or anything is suspect. Just silence then, bangbangbang?

 

[MeeBee]

Perhaps before the shots, Reeva was not screaming but just talking, saying something like "Oscar, please calm down, let's just talk this over," even if he were pursuing her. Her pleas to Oscar would not have been heard.

So what were the first set of bangs?

 

[BabaJ]

Luckily for you, your husband is not Oscar Pistorius.

Exactly:jumping:

 

[steveml]

I think that James may have been more focused on the following portion of his post which you may not have followed:
"Look how close the bathroom window is to the toilet door, oscar would have barely moved from the sense of terror that washed over him by the time she had opened the window and shut the door."

To me James' post was pointing out time. If you read OPs fairy tale, when OP was struck with terror he was at the sliding door and Reeva was in the bathroom opening the window. Those two events happened simultaneously. Then OP runs for his gun (1 second of time), runs down the hallway screaming "get out of my house" and "Reeva call the police" (2-3 seconds of time), and then he enters the bathroom. Now that gives Reeva 3-4 seconds after she opened the bathroom window to do what? And why?

Where does it say that those two events happen simultaneously in OP's statement?

I see no time given at all?

 

[Viper]

So what were the first set of bangs?

BIB OP hitting the WC door twice, the metal tub plate, and one other thing in the bathroom that escapes me at the moment with his cricket bat. Lets face it he was very angry at having to break down his own bedroom doors to get at her and now he is staring at yet another door! However now he has her trapped in the WC.

 

[nastasya]

Just find this about the bat/sound test for interests sake.
http://www.alexanderjason.com/SoundTest.pdf

Defense has no choice but to attempt to explain that 5 witnesses did NOT hear a woman screaming and gunshots. The defense decided their only hope was saying the witnesses heard the cricket bat.

Here's the problem with that. It means they are also explaining why Stipp heard bangs, then a woman screaming and a man's voice, then bangs, thinking it was a "family murder."

• Reeva locks herself in bathroom (confirmed by killer's own account)
• Killer hits door with cricket bat (confirmed by killer's own account)
• Killer shoots four times, killing Reeva (confirmed by killer's own account)

If cricket bat sounds and gun shot sounds are interchangeable, then the defense explanation validates that Stipps heard both sounds. The problem with that is the defense must now claim that while the Stipps accurately heard both types of sounds, they somehow were mistaken about hearing the woman screaming and both a man and woman's voice.

What's great for the defense is that there are no other witnesses to corroborate the Stipps testimony that they heard a woman's voice. That would be impossible because we all know that Reeva couldn't have made any sounds because the first shot hit her in the head. :rollingeyes:

:trainwreck:

Killer >>> :jail:

 

[BlueShoe]

So what were the first set of bangs?

The first set of bangs were either:
1. Oscar kicking at the door.
2. Oscar shooting through the door.
3. Oscar attacking the door or inside of bathroom with cricket bat. (edited, I don't do sports).
Also, if Oscar were simply kicking or hitting at the door at first, the "first" set may not have been heard by anyone.

 

[Viper]

Where does it say that those two events happen simultaneously in OP's statement?

I see no time given at all?

BIB In his fairy tale (affidavit) where he describes hearing a noise; read it and use logic.

 

[MeeBee]

Lol, none of this is lining up!

Reeva is leaning over to lock the door and is then shot. But OP is enraged at not being able to get into the toilet room because it's locked and his leg just doesn't work as well on toilet room doors as it does on bedroom doors so he grabs the cricket bat...

It's not adding up. Just isn't.

 

[patCee]

BBM

At the commencement of trial, one of Nel's first statements to My Lady was that the State's case and evidence was "largely circumstantial".

When I heard him say that, I knew right away there would be no 'smoking gun' so to speak, so I didn't anticipate one nor did I feel disappointed when there wasn't a grand finale, as it were. I suspect My Lady wasn't expecting a 'smoking gun', either, based on what the prosecutor said as he opened the State's CIC.

If the State's case is so allegedly weak, why, then, is OP planning to testify and risk incriminating himself? He isn't required to testify, yet he has chosen to do so. I find that very interesting. If the State's case is so weak, why didn't Roux then move for a summary judgment of dismissal after the State concluded their CIC? That's the one thing that surprised me, rather than the lack of a 'smoking gun'. We've read about other SA criminal cases in these threads when the Defense has done so. Curiously, Roux did not.

In every US trial I've watched, the Defense has always moved for a dismissal of charges after the State rests. I wonder if this is only done in SA when the Defense believes the State hasn't presented a solid case to the Judge? If so, it says a lot (to me) that not only did Roux not move for a dismissal, but that the accused is going to take the great risk of testifying.

Every criminal Defense attorney knows it's a dangerous gamble for the defendant/accused to testify, which is why it rarely happens. If the Defense possesses compelling evidence which they believe will refute the State's case, why is OP going to take the stand?

IMO, I think it's because the Defense believes the State has presented a solid case. I also think the Defense believes that the accused is their strongest witness. If so, it says a lot (to me) about the other testimony/evidence the Defense will present if they need OP's testimony to bolster their case.

Like everyone else here, I look forward to OP taking the stand. I'm certain that Mr. Nel is eagerly awaiting his opportunity to cross-examine him.

The prosecution's case is strong in my view with the witness evidence. Even though they did not clarify the sequence of events beyond reasonable doubt, they heard enough to describe sounds that create doubt to OP's account. Add to this that OP admits shooting RS, no doubt there, and the ballistic evidence. When you consider many questions on this forum, there is plenty for the question of what a 'reasonable person' would do. The courts, surely, don't just consider factual evidence, but also what is reasonable related to those facts. OP's actions were not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. The next question is, why?

 

[Mystymiss]

Also, if Mrs. Stipp was already awake for a bit before the first set of bangs, and Oscar really was chasing Reeva all over the house, why did she only start hearing screaming after the bangs? Wouldn't
she have woken up to the sound of a woman screaming already? Before the bangs, she heard nothing.

one night I was fast asleep then something woke me up. Now I could not determine what sound woke me up but I end up looking out my open window that over looked the woods. Then I heard a chimpanzee wild animal sound. No I am not a loony!

This says to me that Mrs Stipp could have missed that 1st bang (which woke her up) then she heard RS screams then the other bangs. JMO

 

[BabaJ]

Ugh, the WC door opens outwards not inwards, there was no reason to brace the door because it was supported by the entire door frame all the way around three sides and by the locking mechanism. :facepalm:

Then she could still be standing in front of the door holding the door handle up and trying to turn the key/lock. Unless she locked the door when she went to pee (in complete dark?) and then she stood up and listened to the noises behind the door after Oscar shouted. :banghead:

 

[steveml]

Defense has no choice but to attempt to explain that 5 witnesses did NOT hear a woman screaming and gunshots. The defense decided their only hope was saying the witnesses heard the cricket bat.

Here's the problem with that. It means they are also explaining why Stipp heard bangs, then a woman screaming and a man's voice, then bangs, thinking it was a "family murder."

• Reeva locks herself in bathroom (confirmed by killer's own account)
• Killer hits door with cricket bat (confirmed by killer's own account)
• Killer shoots four times, killing Reeva (confirmed by killer's own account)

If cricket bat sounds and gun shot sounds are interchangeable, then the defense explanation validates that Stipps heard both sounds. The problem with that is the defense must now claim that while the Stipps accurately heard both types of sounds, they somehow were mistaken about hearing the woman screaming and both a man and woman's voice.

What's great for the defense is that there are no other witnesses to corroborate the Stipps testimony that they heard a woman's voice. That would be impossible because we all know that Reeva couldn't have made any sounds because the first shot hit her in the head. :rollingeyes:

:trainwreck:

Killer >>> :jail:

But why on earth would they think it was a family murder?

There were only 3 bangs. They didn't know anyone was dead or even injured at the time.

We have to remember this is an entirely safe, crime-free neighborhood, with high walls, security...and everything.

 

[Trooper]

I really struggle with the idea that Mrs Stipp wakes up, looks across at the alarm, and immediately hears the shots (albeit it only 3).

If anyone was expected to believe something like that regarding OP's statement it would be ridiculed with sarcasm.

This simple fact that she did, encapsulates every murderers dilemma.. while they, and in this instance, Oscar, are totally involved on Planet Oscar with their own urgent problem, peoples lives go on. People have the flu. People wake up coughing. People glance over at their clocks... People just do not obey a murderers dictate that they and their dogs, or their children or husbands must mind their own business and let him, Oscar get on with the his business of murdering Reeva.

He was living in the middle of an suburban complex.. he has no control, no control whatever over what else is happening in the other houses surrounding him. Oscars problem was that he didn't shoot Reeva somewhere out in the Namibian desert. He, gunhappy Oscar, chose to fire off among a concentrated gathering of suburban dwellings.. how nuts is that??

people waking up coughing.. then looking over at their alarm is NORMAL.. completely normal. it happens all over the world every damn night , millions do it.

it was Oscars actions that were abnormal.

 

[nastasya]

Yeah I'm not going through all that because it's all been talked about ad nauseum

Ad nauseum?

The only one who's needed a green bucket so far is the killer because he knows even if the judge believes HIS version of the story he's going to jail for murder. If the judge believes he's lying he's doing 25 years for premeditated murder.

 

[Viper]

Lol, none of this is lining up!

Reeva is leaning over to lock the door and is then shot. But OP is enraged at not being able to get into the toilet room because it's locked and his leg just doesn't work as well on toilet room doors as it does on bedroom doors so he grabs the cricket bat...

It's not adding up. Just isn't.

The witness testimony is that the first set of bangs happened at about 3 o'clock. Many Attribute that first set of bangs as Oscar hitting objects in his own bathroom to threaten Reeva. The WC door was locked and she was not going to come out. The arguing and screaming and yelling continue until 3:17 when OP decides to shoot at her, he hit her in the hip and she screamed in agony and pain at that moment and OP realized that he had shot her but not killed her so he move to his right to better aim at the direction of her voice and he deliberately fired three more shots at her, killing her.

 

[curiousjo]

Um, so she wasn't holding the door then. So that point is moot now. Gotcha.

I heard that this bathroom door can open inward and outward! So she probably was holding the door!

 

[BabaJ]

But why on earth would they think it was a family murder?

There were only 3 bangs. They didn't know anyone was dead or even injured at the time.

We have to remember this is an entirely safe, crime-free neighborhood, with high walls, security...and everything.

And maybe because it is an entirely safe neighborhood the first thought was a family murder. On the top of it hearing man and woman voices would support the idea. I think ?