Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[Gavel Rash]

Also we have had no storey yet to hear from Oscar about what happened between the hours of 6pm when Reeva arrived to them going to bed? No we watched a movie ate dinner, screwed like rabbits :floorlaugh: he likes rabbits...or anything? Zilch, no pre bed events? Scrabble? Monopoly? 4 hours is along time to rabbit! Oh that's right....he takes testosterone enhances.

 

[Viper]

Note the words "speculate" and Vermuelen's reluctance to speculate - and they are talking about a kick mark - and whether someone could kick a door to scare the person inside. No suggestion that a cricket bat was used to scare someone - and that's because even the state knows that the cricket bat sounds were after the gunshots.

OK, I am going to post what you transcribed, all of it. Please note the areas that are bolded, underlined, and/or italic:

Roux: When we look at this door, it is consistent, and I think it's conclusive in fact - if you disagree we can go through it - that when the shots were fired, the door was intact. It was not broken.

Vermuelen: That is true, Mi'Lady

Roux: What is your view? When was the door hit with the bat - before or after the shots?

Vermuelen: M'Lady, I would say the door was hit after the shots. ...if you look at the crack down here, it enters this bullet hole on the one side and then exits on the other side... so what this tells me is there had to be a hole in the door before this piece broke off, otherwise the crack would have gone straight through.

Nel: ...which happened first, the bullet shots or the bat. You said the hole was there before the panel was broken.

Vermeulen: That's correct M'lady.

Nel: Can you say scientifically - the first mark, if that was caused before the shots were fired?

Vermeulen: M'Lady, scientifically I would not think it would be possible to say whether small mark on the side - I would not be able to say that it was there before the shots were fired, no.

Nel: Do you know if the kicking happened before the shots, if it's a kick - that mark?

Vermuelen: That would also be very difficult to say, and I doubt one would be able to say that the kicking happened before or after the shots M'Lady.

Nel: Mr Roux put to you that the only reason why the accused would have kicked the door was to open it- remember that - get it open because it was locked.

Vermeulen: Yes ..

Nel: Could there be other reasons?

Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.


He states that the bullets came before the bat, but he is definitely not privy to most of the facts of the case and his opinion is wrong when other facts are considered. His conclusion that there was a bullet hole in the door before that piece of the panel was "broken off" is based on the fact that a piece of the panel was torn off and it ripped through a bullet hole. In earlier testimony he discussed how OP inserted the tip of the bat in to a small defect in the door and pried out a section of the panel; that is where his testimony goes off track, he is conflating OP using the bat to pry at the door and striking at the door as one event, when in fact they were two events - with one (striking the door) happening before the shots and the second event (prying the panel out) happening after the shots. Honestly I cannot understand why this is being challenged. He did not say he drew his conclusion because the bat struck / hit on top of one of the bullet holes!!! Which is the only way, scientifically, it could be stated as a fact!


And if you believe that Nel is not asking specific questions to get the answers to those specific questions on the record, and inadvertently giving insight into where the state's case is going, then never mind that he specifically asked the expert if the damage to the door was consistent with OP trying to scare Reeva - that is where the State's case is going, bat before gunshots.

I need a cigarette, ugh... :smile:

 

[luvmygarden]

My point was, and still is, that many who are convinced that OP is guilty are still looking for more evidence because the state's case is simply not compelling enough to explain premeditated murder.

I think many of us who believe OP is guilty of something are waiting for the defense and OP to give their evidence. We are also waiting for more questions re: the defense statements, questions and answers to be asked by Nel and for the States closing statement to see which evidence holds up and which evidence is thrown out by defense to create doubt. It will be hard to analyze how OP feels. I think that can be a random feeling from moment to moment and can change with circumstances before and after any event in life with time and information. The Judge has a big job.

 

[MeeBee]

I think there will be a very long list by the time everyone has finished . It would probably take me all night to type up .
Just a few for starters
Did he not mind when Reeva got into bed with the clothes she had been wearing after doing her yoga session . Not very romantic for a couple so in love on the eve of Valentines day
He states he heard a window sliding but not a door closing and the key being turned .
Why didn't he whisper to Reeva to take cover or evasive action before he left the room .
Why didn't he hit the panic button if he was panic stricken when he heard the noise that he believed to be a burglar
Why did it take him so long to pick up the fan from the balcony .

We don't know what Reeva wore to do yoga. That she was wearing his shorts indicates to me she borrowed them for sleeping.

He could have heard the window sliding open only and started hollering before he could hear her close and lock the door

I suppose they'll say it was that tunnel vision noisey fan was talking about.

Good question about the panic button. Perhaps more tunnel vision.

I don't know the significance of this question.

 

[minor4th]

Since you're proposing this mock cross-examination - I nominate you to go first.

What questions would you ask OP if you were Nel?

I was going to be the one to answer the questions!

 

[Gavel Rash]

I think the panels were busted wide enough for him to just fit through.

Yes if the first single panel as shown in toilet fell out that way he would have been able to reach in get key with hand only...so key on floor meant he had to remove all panels to lean in. I suppose by then with legs on he may not have scraped his belly depending on where keys fell or he used bat to draw them forward, other blood mark on face not back of bat.

 

[MeeBee]

OK, I am going to post what you transcribed, all of it. Please note the areas that are bolded, underlined, and/or italic:

Roux: When we look at this door, it is consistent, and I think it's conclusive in fact - if you disagree we can go through it - that when the shots were fired, the door was intact. It was not broken.

Vermuelen: That is true, Mi'Lady

Roux: What is your view? When was the door hit with the bat - before or after the shots?

Vermuelen: M'Lady, I would say the door was hit after the shots. ...if you look at the crack down here, it enters this bullet hole on the one side and then exits on the other side... so what this tells me is there had to be a hole in the door before this piece broke off, otherwise the crack would have gone straight through.

Nel: ...which happened first, the bullet shots or the bat. You said the hole was there before the panel was broken.

Vermeulen: That's correct M'lady.

Nel: Can you say scientifically - the first mark, if that was caused before the shots were fired?

Vermeulen: M'Lady, scientifically I would not think it would be possible to say whether small mark on the side - I would not be able to say that it was there before the shots were fired, no.

Nel: Do you know if the kicking happened before the shots, if it's a kick - that mark?

Vermuelen: That would also be very difficult to say, and I doubt one would be able to say that the kicking happened before or after the shots M'Lady.

Nel: Mr Roux put to you that the only reason why the accused would have kicked the door was to open it- remember that - get it open because it was locked.

Vermeulen: Yes ..

Nel: Could there be other reasons?

Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.


He states that the bullets came before the bat, but he is definitely not privy to most of the facts of the case and his opinion is wrong when other facts are considered. His conclusion that there was a bullet hole in the door before that piece of the panel was "broken off" is based on the fact that a piece of the panel was torn off and it ripped through a bullet hole. In earlier testimony he discussed how OP inserted the tip of the bat in to a small defect in the door and pried out a section of the panel; that is where his testimony goes off track, he is conflating OP using the bat to pry at the door and striking at the door as one event, when in fact they were two events - with one (striking the door) happening before the shots and the second event (prying the panel out) happening after the shots. Honestly I cannot understand why this is being challenged. He did not say he drew his conclusion because the bat struck / hit on top of one of the bullet holes!!! Which is the only way, scientifically, it could be stated as a fact!


And if you believe that Nel is not asking specific questions to get the answers to those specific questions on the record, and inadvertently giving insight into where the state's case is going, then never mind that he specifically asked the expert if the damage to the door was consistent with OP trying to scare Reeva - that is where the State's case is going, bat before gunshots.

I need a cigarette, ugh... :smile:

BBM: I don't even wanna know what that means...

What evidence do you think Nel will have that OP used the bat to scare Reeva? Because he can't really present things he only thinks happened or that is just speculation. He must have evidence. The only place that evidence can possibly come from is OP and he ain't giving that.

 

[sorrell skye]

I think the panels were busted wide enough for him to just fit through.

Here are 2 pics of the toilet door.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Personally, I don't think OP needed that much room to reach through to retrieve a key from the floor - especially if he was urgently trying to rescue Reeva and to save her from dying from gunshot wounds.

All he needed was enough room to fit an arm through - he didn't need to remove almost the entire upper door.

 

[MeeBee]

Here are 2 pics of the toilet door.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Personally, I don't think OP needed that much room to reach through to retrieve a key from the floor - especially if he was urgently trying to rescue Reeva and to save her from dying from gunshot wounds.

All he needed was enough room to fit an arm through - he didn't need to remove almost the entire upper door.

I think that depends. His arm could have fit through a small space, but it may have been difficult for him to bend over enough to reach it if it was, say, blocking his shoulders or torso. It's like trying to reach something beyond a fence that's just out of reach. Your arm can fit through enough but it's still difficult to reach the object.

 

[sorrell skye]

I was going to be the one to answer the questions!

Hey - not fair!

It's your game - I think you should ask the questions. Especially because if you ask the questions, it will be the perfect exercise for you to think outside the box and outside your comfort zone, doncha think?

 

[minor4th]

I think there will be a very long list by the time everyone has finished . It would probably take me all night to type up .
Just a few for starters
Did he not mind when Reeva got into bed with the clothes she had been wearing after doing her yoga session . Not very romantic for a couple so in love on the eve of Valentines day

Reeva had not planned to spend the night so she did not have night clothes or a change of clothes. She had just done her wash, and the type of yoga she does is not strenuous exercise causing her to sweat. I offered some of my shorts and tshirt to wear to bed, but she said she was fine.

He states he heard a window sliding but not a door closing and the key being turned .

When I was on the balcony getting the fans, I heard a window sliding from the bathroom. I heard general noises coming from that direction but I cannot say it was the door closing or a key being turned.

Why didn't he whisper to Reeva to take cover or evasive action before he left the room .

I had to act immediately because I thought a burglar was in the bathroom and was going to shoot us. I did say to Reeva to call the police as I was approaching the bathroom with my gun.

Why didn't he hit the panic button if he was panic stricken when he heard the noise that he believed to be a burglar

I had to act immediately to protect Reeva and myself. I did not have time to sound an alarm and wait for security to show up because I thought the burglar was about to shoot us dead on the spot.

Why did it take him so long to pick up the fan from the balcony .

I don't understand this question.

Oscar's hypothetical answers in red.

Anyone have any questions Nel could ask that you really think is going to trip Oscar up and reveal something significant?

 

[Val1]

Ugh, the WC door opens outwards not inwards, there was no reason to brace the door because it was supported by the entire door frame all the way around three sides and by the locking mechanism. :facepalm:

bbm - Which is also imo apparently why OP couldn't just bulldoze through it like the bedroom door.

 

[minor4th]

Hey - not fair!

It's your game - I think you should ask the questions. Especially because if you ask the questions, it will be the perfect exercise for you to think outside the box and outside your comfort zone, doncha think?

Ok, but I can't really think of any questions I think would trip him up or lead to some big reveal.

But here are some questions I would like to know the answers to:

Describe the locking mechanism on your bedroom door and the process for unlocking it. Does it require a key, a thumb turn, a foot mechanism?

Depending on his answer I might ask why he chose to travel down a blind corridor of however many feet, as opposed to unlatching the bedroom door and fleeing. (But I can also come up with a plausible reason that Oscar would give).

Describe the exact process of bringing the two fans in - how much did they weigh? were they plugged in or out? How long did it take? Describe the location of the sounds you heard from the bathroom in relation to the balcony.

Was there any light in the bathroom when you approached - ambient or otherwise?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Here are 2 pics of the toilet door.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Personally, I don't think OP needed that much room to reach through to retrieve a key from the floor - especially if he was urgently trying to rescue Reeva and to save her from dying from gunshot wounds.


All he needed was enough room to fit an arm through - he didn't need to remove almost the entire upper door.

So why did he rip other panels out? They didn't fall as the scratch marks are where they were ripped scraped against nails holding beading in.

 

[sorrell skye]

Oscar's hypothetical answers in red.

think there will be a very long list by the time everyone has finished . It would probably take me all night to type up .
Just a few for starters
Did he not mind when Reeva got into bed with the clothes she had been wearing after doing her yoga session . Not very romantic for a couple so in love on the eve of Valentines day

Reeva had not planned to spend the night so she did not have night clothes or a change of clothes. She had just done her wash, and the type of yoga she does is not strenuous exercise causing her to sweat. I offered some of my shorts and tshirt to wear to bed, but she said she was fine.

He states he heard a window sliding but not a door closing and the key being turned .

When I was on the balcony getting the fans, I heard a window sliding from the bathroom. I heard general noises coming from that direction but I cannot say it was the door closing or a key being turned.

Why didn't he whisper to Reeva to take cover or evasive action before he left the room .

I had to act immediately because I thought a burglar was in the bathroom and was going to shoot us. I did say to Reeva to call the police as I was approaching the bathroom with my gun.

Why didn't he hit the panic button if he was panic stricken when he heard the noise that he believed to be a burglar

I had to act immediately to protect Reeva and myself. I did not have time to sound an alarm and wait for security to show up because I thought the burglar was about to shoot us dead on the spot.

Why did it take him so long to pick up the fan from the balcony .

I don't understand this question.

Anyone have any questions Nel could ask that you really think is going to trip Oscar up and reveal something significant?

Since colors don't show up in a quote box, I've bolded Minor4th's above responses. I'm responding to answer #4 regarding the security alarm button.

It only takes a second to press the security alarm button. Less time than it would have taken for you (OP) to grab your gun from beneath the bed.

 

[Rumpole]

Oscar's hypothetical answers in red.

Anyone have any questions Nel could ask that you really think is going to trip Oscar up and reveal something significant?

HYPOTHETICAL NEL: I put it to you that you are from the Planet Krypton and posses Super Powers here on Earth. (faster than a speeding bullet)
How else could you commence firing the 4 shots just after 3:17 (as the State is sure you did) and yet then manage go back to bedroom, put on your prosthetic "super legs", kick and bash at the door, go back and forth to bedroom at least twice, go to balcony and shout for help, collect the cricket bat from the bedroom, bash and kick the toilet door (very very quietly so that nobody hears a sound), prise the door open, regard Reeva's injuries, lift and drag her from the toilet to the bathroom and try to assist, before finally phoning for help at 3:19.
Even a very conservative estimate by somebody with the prevailing "Presumption of guilt" mindset estimates that lot would take a minimum of 6+ minutes... so please explain how you did all that in a minute or so if you are not in fact "Superman"

(The glasses never did fool anyone)

 

[Gbtaketwo]

We don't know what Reeva wore to do yoga. That she was wearing his shorts indicates to me she borrowed them for sleeping.
Maybe but she had packed a bag full of clothes to bring with her .
I still think at her age she would be wearing something nicer for a boyfriend of only 3 months JMOO

He could have heard the window sliding open only and started hollering before he could hear her close and lock the door

Sorry can't believe that. he had to walk round the bed to find his gun before he shouted out .

I suppose they'll say it was that tunnel vision noisey fan was talking about.

I am sure that is what the defence will say but it is hard to for me to believe when he was supposed to be stood right next to her when he alleges that he heard noise .
He states that he shouted to call the police but at no point did . I think it is more likely that if there had been a fight it would be Reeva that would threaten to call the police.

Good question about the panic button. Perhaps more tunnel vision.
That will be the defence I am sure or maybe is was broken

I don't know the significance of this question.[/quote]
Again this is JMOO but it would take Reeva quite a bit longer to get up and walk down to the end of the dressing room that it would for him to pick up the fan
And i believe he would have seen ,sensed or heard her because of his close proximity . He hears a window slide ( that did if we are to believe witness's wasn't open ) but nothing else . His hearing is just too selective to me .

Look forward to reading everyone else's questions .
Sorry this post is a bit mixed up I deleted the quote accidentally

 

[sorrell skye]

I think that depends. His arm could have fit through a small space, but it may have been difficult for him to bend over enough to reach it if it was, say, blocking his shoulders or torso. It's like trying to reach something beyond a fence that's just out of reach. Your arm can fit through enough but it's still difficult to reach the object.

I suppose it depends on how far away the key was after OP pried the first panel off.

 

[DebinGA]

Oscar's hypothetical answers in red.

Anyone have any questions Nel could ask that you really think is going to trip Oscar up and reveal something significant?

Nel plays audio of Roux's Oscar-screams-like-a-girl test, then asks OP,

"Mr. Pistorius, is this your signature on this receipt for a helium canister purchased the day before the test?"

 

[Val1]

Yes, I'm beginning to call this part into question. The fact that she heard nothing before the shots, not a man or a woman, or anything is suspect. Just silence then, bangbangbang?

I'm a wee bit behind today so sorry if this has been raised already, but is it not possible that the arguing before the first set of bangs is what disturbed Mrs. Stipp's sleep initially and caused her to come fully awake with her own coughing? The silence just before the first set of bangs could easily have been during a struggle for control of either of the doors.