Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[Gavel Rash]

We don't know what Reeva wore to do yoga. That she was wearing his shorts indicates to me she borrowed them for sleeping.

Maybe but she had packed a bag full of clothes to bring with her .
I still think at her age she would be wearing something nicer for a boyfriend of only 3 months .

Reeva was not wearing the same black shirt when she arrived. The photo of her in car shows a thin shoulder strap and tight singlet top whereas yoga outfit was a loose black singlet with wider straps. So sometime that evening she changed/ showered? Oscar will tell us when.

http://amradaronline.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/reeva-oscar-getty.jpeg

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796

 

[steveml]

HYPOTHETICAL NEL: I put it to you that you are from the Planet Krypton and posses Super Powers here on Earth. (faster than a speeding bullet)
How else could you commence firing the 4 shots just after 3:17 (as the State is sure you did) and yet then manage to kick and bash at the door, go back and forth to bedroom at least twice, go to balcony and shout for help, collect the cricket bat from the bedroom, bash and kick the toilet door (very very quietly so that nobody hears a sound), prise the door open, regard Reeva's injuries, lift and drag her from the toilet to the bathroom and try to assist, before finally phoning for help at 3:19.
Even a very conservative estimate by somebody with the prevailing "Presumption of guilt" mindset estimates that lot would take a minimum of 6+ minutes... so please explain how you did all that in a minute or so if you are not in fact "Superman"

ET OP: That's easy.....


:ufo:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Reeva was not wearing the same black shirt when she arrived. The photo of her in car shows a thin shoulder strap and tight singlet top whereas yoga outfit was a loose black singlet with wider straps. So sometime that evening she changed/ showered? Oscar will tell us when.

http://amradaronline.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/reeva-oscar-getty.jpeg

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796

Thanks

That's interesting I thought it was the same top

 

[james83]

Oscar's hypothetical answers in red.

Anyone have any questions Nel could ask that you really think is going to trip Oscar up and reveal something significant?

What were you and Reeva talking about just before you brought the fans in?.

In your original affidavit you said you heard someone in the bathroom, now you say you heard the window sliding open, which is it?

Why did you presume it was Reeva who was in the toilet when you got back to the bed and that she wasn't hiding/had made her escape?.

Why did it take you at least 8 minutes to break down the door after the shots?

Why did you phone Johan Stander first and not medical assistance?

If you told Johan Stander to call an ambulance why didn't he?

If netcare told you to bring Reeva in, how come you still hadn't left and was only just coming down the stairs when Johan Stander arrived at your house over 4 minutes after you got off the phone to them?.

Is it true you really did scream like a woman when you first heard Roux's legal fee's?:laugh:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Oscar had a "stuffed" right shoulder and had a patch on it. Most likely was Voltaren (analgesic - anti-inflamitory) as the only other option would be narcotic. The Voltaren makes you sleepy so ... quite possible Reeva hit the kitchen for a snack while Oscar was asleep.

It was reported to be a red tape. To me that suggests the type of tape a physio uses to support muscle injury/weakness.

 

[james83]

HYPOTHETICAL NEL: I put it to you that you are from the Planet Krypton and posses Super Powers here on Earth. (faster than a speeding bullet)
How else could you commence firing the 4 shots just after 3:17 (as the State is sure you did) and yet then manage to kick and bash at the door, go back and forth to bedroom at least twice, go to balcony and shout for help, collect the cricket bat from the bedroom, bash and kick the toilet door (very very quietly so that nobody hears a sound), prise the door open, regard Reeva's injuries, lift and drag her from the toilet to the bathroom and try to assist, before finally phoning for help at 3:19.
Even a very conservative estimate by somebody with the prevailing "Presumption of guilt" mindset estimates that lot would take a minimum of 6+ minutes... so please explain how you did all that in a minute or so if you are not in fact "Superman"

(The glasses never did fool anyone)

This is what Oscar claims happened. all the state say is the shots were fired at 3.17, nobody saw Oscar until he carried Reeva down the stairs at around 3.25, it is only his story that he used the bat before the phone calls. He could have easily have for instance have..
3.17 fired shots
3.19 phoned stander
3.20 phoned netcare
3.21-3.25 smashed down door carried her down

You are making the mistake of taking his story as the truth and basing the states case around it.

 

[Gavel Rash]

I also still believe ther is more phone stuff to come out. Also when Clarice was there as a lawyer she would have been all for his rights 'say nothing' hence he said nothing when initially asked at scene too upset.yeah....and perhaps as mentioned even scurried the phone away for scene. And I also still believe the 'Piet' on phone was a lawyer not 'Peet' his manger. He was given this number either by Stander or his father...he then called the number so that Piet had a number to callback on.

"Better get a lawyer son, better get real good one!"

 

[Gavel Rash]

This is what Oscar claims happened. all the state say is the shots were fired at 3.17, nobody saw Oscar until he carried Reeva down the stairs at around 3.25, it is only his story that he used the bat before the phone calls. He could have easily have for instance have..
3.17 fired shots
3.19 phoned stander
3.20 phoned netcare
3.21-3.25 smashed down door carried her down

You are making the mistake of taking his story as the truth and basing the states case around it.

Although the blood in bedroom behind bed head means he broke door down prior to carrying her in order to have blood on him to transfer and they also showed bloody carpet stains on that left side of bed.

 

[Rumpole]

This is what Oscar claims happened. all the state say is the shots were fired at 3.17, nobody saw Oscar until he carried Reeva down the stairs at around 3.25, it is only his story that he used the bat before the phone calls. He could have easily have for instance have..
3.17 fired shots
3.19 phoned stander
3.20 phoned netcare
3.21-3.25 smashed down door carried her down

You are making the mistake of taking his story as the truth and basing the states case around it.

The FACTS of the case are that a LOT of things happened after the shots.

If people are viewing from the prevailing position of "a presumption of guilt" you may well deny some of what OP claims, but people should have a reason for doing that other that "I think he is guilty so I am going to deny what he says" A legal analysis requires a "presumption of innocence" and even a casual discussion needs to at least maintain a "wait and see what is proven" if you are to have regard for both sides of any discussion.
Anyway.. after the shots it is the State's contention that a lot of things happened.. including using the cricket bat to bash open the door. That would have taken some time and combined with at least a few other events, far more time than is possible given the time of the second bangs (after 3:17) and the time of OP's first phone call. (3:19) he State's own times that they present via phone records contradict their hypothesis. It is simply impossible that the second set of bangs were the gunshots.

There were TWO known events that created bangs... that is a fact.
There were two sets of bangs heard by credible State witnesses.
The State expert(s) testimony is clear that the shots came before cricket bat bangs.. (door damage as well as wood splinters in wounds and in bathroom etc.)
I have no doubt about the sequence of events and the time line around critical events.

 

[james83]

Although the blood in bedroom behind bed head means he broke door down prior to carrying her in order to have blood on him to transfer and they also showed bloody carpet stains on that left side of bed.

Not sure i follow, of course he broke the door down before he carried her.

 

[james83]

The FACTS of the case are that a LOT of things happened after the shots.

If people are viewing from the prevailing position of " a presumption of guilt" you may well deny some of what OP claims, but people should have a reason for doing that other that "I think he is guilty so I am going to deny what he says"
Anyway.. after the shots it is the State's contention that a lot of things happened.. including using the cricket bat to bash open the door. That would have taken some time and combined with at least a few other events, far more time than is possible given the time of the second bangs (after 3:17) and the time of OP's first phone call. (3:19) he State's own times that they present via phone records contradict their hypothesis. It is simply impossible that the second set of bangs were the gunshots.

There were TWO known events that created bangs... that is a fact.
There were two sets of bangs heard by credible State witnesses.
The State expert(s) testimony is clear that the shots came before cricket bat bangs.. (door damage as well as wood splinters in wounds and in bathroom etc.)
I have no doubt about the sequence of events and the time line around critical events.

Only the stipps heard the first set, it is not a fact that they heard the cricket bat sound's, there is other evidence of damage in the bathroom.
If the second set of sounds was the cricket bat, that means Van der merwe and the Burger's didn't hear the gunshots, seems unlikely.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Not sure i follow, of course he broke the door down before he carried her.

Yes of course but how did he transfer blood to bedroom far left wall behind bed?
He must have broken door down to get key, not after phone calls, seen blood got blood on his hands stumps at least to get it on bedroom carpet left side of bed. If he just broke down door and then took her downstairs as he said, he never carried her into bedroom area just around the corner and no blood would have been transferred to wall?

 

[minor4th]

Since colors don't show up in a quote box, I've bolded Minor4th's above responses. I'm responding to answer #4 regarding the security alarm button.

It only takes a second to press the security alarm button. Less time than it would have taken for you (OP) to grab your gun from beneath the bed.

But pushing the alarm button does not mean armed security is immediately present to protect you

 

[james83]

Yes of course but how did he transfer blood to bedroom far left wall behind bed?
He must have broken door down to get key, not after phone calls, seen blood got blood on his hands stumps at least to get it on bedroom carpet left side of bed. If he just broke down door and then took her downstairs as he said, he never carried her into bedroom area just around the corner and no blood would have been transferred to wall?

Gavel rash can you write your full run down of how you believed it happened so i can understand exactly what you mean please?.

 

[minor4th]

Reeva was not wearing the same black shirt when she arrived. The photo of her in car shows a thin shoulder strap and tight singlet top whereas yoga outfit was a loose black singlet with wider straps. So sometime that evening she changed/ showered? Oscar will tell us when.

http://amradaronline.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/reeva-oscar-getty.jpeg

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796

Oscar's answer - she did yoga in the same shirt she went to sleep in.

 

[james83]

But pushing the alarm button does not mean armed security is immediately present to protect you

But it would still be a big help in the event that when entering the bathroom he ended up being overpowered leaving Reeva all alone with an intruder(s).

 

[Gavel Rash]

Gavel rash can you write your full run down of how you believed it happened so i can understand exactly what you mean please?.

Sorry I run on a bit.. :-/

But....

He threatens and bangs with bat, first I believe. Even cracks the door. I am not sure Reeva even knows this a bat as all she is **** scared screaming thinking a gun, knowing how gun toting he is, he shoots the four times as ballistics and forensics have established with patterning. She has stopped screaming, he prys open door gap with bat, sees carnage and rips panels off, gets keys, gets blood on him, opens door, half pulls her out, runs to room on stumps whole time gets legs, blood doona, gets phones, blood wall area, runs back legs on, makes calls, picks up body and heads downstairs.

 

[minor4th]

What were you and Reeva talking about just before you brought the fans in?.

We were not talking just before I brought the fans in.

In your original affidavit you said you heard someone in the bathroom, now you say you heard the window sliding open, which is it?

I heard someone in the bathroom sliding the window open

Why did you presume it was Reeva who was in the toilet when you got back to the bed and that she wasn't hiding/had made her escape?.

Because there was no where else she could have been

Why did it take you at least 8 minutes to break down the door after the shots?

It didn't take me 8 minutes to break the door.

Why did you phone Johan Stander first and not medical assistance?

Because I had his number programed as a "favorite" and it was the quickest way I could get a call out to ask for help. I asked him to call an ambulance.

If you told Johan Stander to call an ambulance why didn't he?

I don't know.

If netcare told you to bring Reeva in, how come you still hadn't left and was only just coming down the stairs when Johan Stander arrived at your house over 4 minutes after you got off the phone to them?.

After I called Stander I called Netcare and Security. I also screamed and cried like a woman out the window. It then took me a short amount of time to get Reeva out of the toilet cubicle and into the bathroom where I could carry her. As I was walking down the stairs,stander arrived.

Is it true you really did scream like a woman when you first heard Roux's legal fee's?:laugh:

I will now scream like a woman lol

More hypothetical Oscar answers in red

 

[minor4th]

But it would still be a big help in the event that when entering the bathroom he ended up being overpowered leaving Reeva all alone with an intruder(s).

I don't think so. Shooting them dead takes care of the threat.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Oscar's answer - she did yoga in the same shirt she went to sleep in.

And she possibly did do yoga in that shirt....or was it just bedroom twister? she just had to change sometime during the evening and most do that post shower...where is that shirt she was wearing when she arrived? In her bag? We know her pants were not as they are on the ground outside? As I said earlier there is a full four or more hours for Oscar to detail to us prior to them 'sleeping'