Trial Discussion Thread #16

[vansleuths]

BBM

1. We don't know that the first set of bangs are the gunshots and the second the cricket bat. That is only a theory that has been floated by the Defense.

But then what does the PT say are the two sets of bangs?

One set was obviously the gunshots. Does the PT say this was the first or second set and what do they say caused the other set of bangs then?

 

[MeeBee]

But then what does the PT say are the two sets of bangs?

One set was obviously the gunshots. Does the PT say this was the first or second set and what do they say caused the other set of bangs then?

DT says the first set of bangs is the gunshots. The PT has not really made clear what they think the two sets of bangs are but their assertion is the gunshots happened at 3:17 which would put them more in line with the second set of bangs. No explanation yet for first shots.

 

[vansleuths]

DT says the first set of bangs is the gunshots. The PT has not really made clear what they think the two sets of bangs are but their assertion is the gunshots happened at 3:17 which would put them more in line with the second set of bangs. No explanation yet for first shots.

If the PT is saying that the second set of bangs is the gunshots then they are saying that no one heard the cricket bat on the door?

Since the prosecution has now rested, does that mean we will never hear what they believe was the cause of the first set of bangs

 

[lisasalinger]

But then what does the PT say are the two sets of bangs?

One set was obviously the gunshots. Does the PT say this was the first or second set and what do they say caused the other set of bangs then?

The State's position is that the 2nd set of bangs are the gunshots.

There are 5 ear witnesses who heard very loud female screaming for several minutes in between the bangs (potentially up to as may as 10-15 minutes), which only ended with the last bang.

There was testimony by the Medical Examiner who basically stated that with the injuries that Reeva sustained, it would be almost impossible to imagine that she wouldn't scream, especially since screaming can be an involuntary response.

There was also testimony by the ballistics expert that the hip shot was very likely first with a period of time in between the last 3 shots, 2 of which hit her arm and head (not sure in which order).

Putting all of these pieces together, it is FAR more logical for me to believe that Reeva was screaming in fear and/or pain during that time not that she was dead that whole time and Oscar was screaming like a woman and every witness got it wrong.

Also, the light in the bathroom was on the whole time, as testified to by both Stipps. This is a direct contradiction to Oscar's bail affidavit. He states he switched it on at a later time.

The State has not given a definitive theory of the first noises. Nel did state at one point in his presentation that they would "deal" with witness inconsistencies later. I'm guessing that through defense cross-examinations and in his final summation we will hear the State's ultimate theory of the initial bangs. Maybe we won't, that is just my guess.

 

[Val1]

But then what does the PT say are the two sets of bangs?

One set was obviously the gunshots. Does the PT say this was the first or second set and what do they say caused the other set of bangs then?

I think you will have to watch the rest of the trial to find out, as will most of us. I know I will be if at all possible(it gets rough because it requires all-nighters for my part of the world - 12:30am to whenever they quit for the day) to find out exactly what Nel will present to the judge as his final argument, once the defense is done trying to refute all the evidence that the prosecution has submitted. :/

 

[MeeBee]

If the PT is saying that the second set of bangs is the gunshots then they are saying that no one heard the cricket bat on the door?

Since the prosecution has now rested, does that mean we will never hear what they believe was the cause of the first set of bangs

Don't really know what they are wanting to say the first set of bangs are. They don't get a rebuttal so I guess it's possible they will cover it in closing statements.

 

[vansleuths]

The State's position is that the 2nd set of bangs are the gunshots.

There are 5 ear witnesses who heard very loud female screaming for several minutes in between the bangs (potentially up to as may as 10-15 minutes), which only ended with the last bang.

When you say screaming in between the bangs, do you mean in between the shots of the second set of bangs? I didn't think the second set of bangs lasted 10-15 minutes, Michelle Burger described it as shot-pause-shot-shot-shot.

 

[Val1]

When you say screaming in between the bangs, do you mean in between the shots of the second set of bangs? I didn't think the second set of bangs lasted 10-15 minutes, Michelle Burger described it as shot-pause-shot-shot-shot.

There were two series of "sounds" but not all the witnesses heard both sets. The screams were heard in between the two series of "sounds" by all the witnesses, whereas not all of the witnesses heard the arguing or OP's cries of help help(at least not when he claimed to have made them) that he claims to have made before he says he broke down the bathroom door to get to RS.

 

[Trooper]

Oscar himself only hears two noises that evening..

the 'noise in the bathroom'.. which he decides is the bathroom window opening.. and

a 'movement' in the toilet.. presumably the noise a ' movement'. makes...but what sort of movement he doesn't distinguish . .. sound of a magazine dropping from the rack in the toilet? sound of shuffling feet?? sound of paper unraveling?? cistern ?? clothes being realigned?? what??

dunno.. just the 'movement ' sound .

He expressly and categorically omits hearing any sound of a human voice, male or female..

 

[vansleuths]

There were two series of "sounds" but not all the witnesses heard both sets. The screams were heard in between the two series of "sounds" by all the witnesses, whereas not all of the witnesses heard the arguing or OP's cries of help help(at least not when he claimed to have made them) that he claims to have made before he says he broke down the bathroom door to get to RS.

And just to confirm, one set of sounds was at 3:00AM according to Peter Barber while the second set was at 3:17AM?

 

[lisasalinger]

When you say screaming in between the bangs, do you mean in between the shots of the second set of bangs? I didn't think the second set of bangs lasted 10-15 minutes, Michelle Burger described it as shot-pause-shot-shot-shot.

The first bangs occurred sometime in the 3am vicinity. The second set of bangs occurred sometime around 3:15am. These times are based off of witness testimonies plus phone records. They are not exact to the minute but close. We are working with approximately 10-15 minutes in between the two sets of bangs.

The female screaming was heard in between 3am and 3:15am. The Stipps testified that the screaming occurred consistently throughout that time.

 

[K.T]

The State's position is that the 2nd set of bangs are the gunshots.
snip

There was also testimony by the ballistics expert that the hip shot was very likely first with a period of time in between the last 3 shots, 2 of which hit her arm and head (not sure in which order).

Putting all of these pieces together, it is FAR more logical for me to believe that Reeva was screaming in fear and/or pain during that time not that she was dead that whole time and Oscar was screaming like a woman and every witness got it wrong.

Also, the light in the bathroom was on the whole time, as testified to by both Stipps. This is a direct contradiction to Oscar's bail affidavit. He states he switched it on at a later time.

The State has not given a definitive theory of the first noises. Nel did state at one point in his presentation that they would "deal" with witness inconsistencies later. I'm guessing that through defense cross-examinations and in his final summation we will hear the State's ultimate theory of the initial bangs. Maybe we won't, that is just my guess.

One thing I wonder is if the first body shot, that the ballistics expert Mangena said was to her hip, could have been somewhere in first set of bangs.

Steenkamp's would be screaming in pain and fear on and off for a longer period, waiting to see what Pistorius is doing, until the second set of bangs that included the final shot to the head.

She's bleeding continuously, but she could have moved over the toilet as well as finally collapsing onto the magazine rack. Interesting to know if that could be a possibility to the blood splatter, series of events.

 

[vansleuths]

They are not exact to the minute but close. We are working with approximately 10-15 minutes in between the two sets of bangs.

The female screaming was heard in between 3am and 3:15am.

So the defence is saying that OP screamed like a woman for about 15 minutes. If you follow the timeline of the defence and say this was an accident, wouldn't you think that OP should have called SA's equivalent of 911 at 3:01AM right after he realized that it was RS that was shot?

 

[Trooper]

according to the evidence presented.. there are 6 sounds in total.

4 gunshots, .. ( reeva's injuries, casings, and bullet holes in the door)

2 cricket bat sounds. ( 2 dents in the door, 2 marks of the impact of the door on the bat matching the dents. )

I throw in Oscar's claimed kick at the door, but with no real seriousness... he may have heard that, and he may even have done it, at some stage of that evening , but the evidence for that kick is in dispute and has only been hinted at by the defence.. the prosecution discards that claim.

2 sets of bangs.. there are, clearly, 2 sorts of bangs, .. gunshot and cricket bat..

neither are the same, neither can replicate the other, regardless of ditzy youtube 'demo's'

one is one thing , one is the other thing..

no witness has come anywhere near agreeing with the Defence that these were mistaken by them , or possibly mistaken or even possible to mistake. none, not one has testified to hearing a cricket bat sound.

 

[lisasalinger]

One thing I wonder is if the first body shot, that the ballistics expert Mangena said was to her hip, could have been somewhere in first set of bangs.
Steenkamp's would be screaming in pain and fear on and off for a longer period, waiting to see what Pistorius is doing, until the second set of bangs that included the final shot to the head.

She's bleeding continuously, but she could have moved over the toilet as well as finally collapsing onto the magazine rack. Interesting to know if that could be a possibility to the blood splatter, series of events.

BBM... I have considered this too. I just don't know how exactly to break everything down logistically. It's hard to do until I hear the Defense's side and Nel's cross-examination.

The State did definitively say it is their position that all shots occurred during the 2nd volley of sounds. They must have a reason why they believe that.

 

[Trooper]

that a cricket bat was used is plain and clear..


that any witness didn't hear that cricket bat being used, except Oscar alone, is also clear.

and the reason for witnesses hearing gunshot, and then not doubting it was gunshot, and not going anywhere near the possibility of mistaking that sound for a cricket bat is physics.

 

[MeeBee]

BBM... I have considered this too. I just don't know how exactly to break everything down logistically. It's hard to do until I hear the Defense's side and Nel's cross-examination.

The State did definitively say it is their position that all shots occurred during the 2nd volley of sounds. They must have a reason why they believe that.

Then they must feel the first set of bangs was the cricket bat?

 

[lisasalinger]

So the defence is saying that OP screamed like a woman for about 15 minutes. If you follow the timeline of the defence and say this was an accident, wouldn't you think that OP should have called SA's equivalent of 911 at 3:01AM right after he realized that it was RS that was shot?

Essentially, yes, to your first question. They want the court to believe that ALL noises made that evening were Oscar and Oscar alone. Although the defense doesn't like the 15 minute timeline so they have alluded to tightening that up. Because yes of course it looks ridiculous that Oscar was screaming like a woman for 15 minutes. We'll have to see how they do that (maybe somebody else will testify that they heard the first bangs later than 3am, just speculation).

Either way... Oscar didn't call anybody until 3:19, and that was Mr. Stander, the estate manager. He spoke to him for 24 seconds and Stander was one of the first on the scene, along with his lawyer daughter. They had not called an ambulance, they went straight to Oscar's house.

The second call that Oscar made was to Netcare, a private ambulance company. That call was 66 seconds. We don't know what was said between them, nobody has testified to it. Oscar claims that they told him to take Reeva to the hospital himself. I'm hoping that Netcare take the stand at some point because I'd really like to know what they discussed.

The ambulance situation is very confusing. The Standers never called an ambulance. Dr. Stipp (who arrived on the scene around 3:24am-ish) asked if anybody had called and at that time Stander told Baba, the security guard, to go call. The ambulance showed up after Stipp determined Reeva was dead. There seemed to be very lack-luster attempts at getting quick medical help that night (in my opinion).

Oh and also, before any help had arrived yet, Baba called Oscar at 3:22 and Oscar told him "everything is fine". Didn't say that he just shot his girlfriend accidently. Didn't say that he just spoke with Netcare and I need to get my girlfriend to the hospital, can you help me with that. Didn't say anything at all about what had just happened.

None of it rings true to what you think would occur when somebody desperately wants help for their loved one.

 

[lisasalinger]

Then they must feel the first set of bangs was the cricket bat?

And/or some other banging that sounded similar. I really don't know but would surely love to hear their theory on that.

 

[vansleuths]

According to the pathologist, "There was a small amount of urine found in her bladder."

Does this not support the PT theory that RS did not go to the bathroom to pee?

Also, there was blood still in the toilet bowl meaning that it probably wasn't flushed. Was the contents of the bowl examined for urine?