Trial Discussion Thread #17

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That's exactly my point though, what more than the screaming shows total intention or pre med. I'm not trying to be facetious or make light of what we 'think'....I just want something more solid, a stronger motive and reason for OP to WANT Reeva dead.

Is motive something that must be proven in SA courts? It is not here in the US. Who can know what causes someone to commit murder? Look at the Fort Hood killer. Can anyone really get inside his head? and would anyone think. ok.. I understand his motive now? Will anyone who is not capable of murder understand motive?

What if he says.. she put on that accent I hate. And that was enough for him to shoot 4 times through a door at her. Would that make any better sense?
 
Without having heard the Defence's side we seem to be stuck with varying scenarios. Apart from the screaming and 4 shots do we have any other 'solid' evidence of pre-meditation or intentional murder?

yes........we do....he intentionally after forethought pulled the trigger and killed a person who was on the other side of a door.
 
From memory there were 2 keys on the outside of the door, on a green fob. These were found by van Remsburg, and he also said the bathroom door was locked.

Yes, very strange and I would think rare to have other keys on for a toilet, unless they are spares. Roux said the bedroom door would be explained, as if it was nothing....he sure does have a lot of questions to answer doesn't he?
 
The thing that really frustrates me in this is the complete mess that 'some' investigators who were first on the scene made. How can we be confident in the evidence when mistakes were so needlessly made. You would think that the moment they realized how big this would be and the international interest, they would be extra careful in their handling of it.
There is no excuse for it IMO they are trained to do a job. I feel sad for Reeva's parents as they deserve more, as did she. Both lawyers must also find it frustrating, and you could see that when poor Nel realized the photos were wrongly dated. It's like being given a jigsaw to complete with missing pieces......you have to complete it but you know it's impossible.
Rant over......

Spot on.

The last thing I'd want to see it the case thrown out. That would serve no purpose. If there wasn't so much media attention I have no doubt that any capable defense team would have strong grounds for this to happen.

It's been an ongoing problem for SAPS, but things are supposed to be getting better.

It may not have been as bad if the SAPS guys were more alert and hadn't done such long shifts. They'd just come straight from a burglary from what I remember.
 
Is motive something that must be proven in SA courts? It is not here in the US. Who can know what causes someone to commit murder? Look at the Fort Hood killer. Can anyone really get inside his head? and would anyone think. ok.. I understand his motive now? Will anyone who is not capable of murder understand motive?

What if he says.. she put on that accent I hate. And that was enough for him to shoot 4 times through a door at her. Would that make any better sense?

True, I'm not sure in SA, but the lawyers on their news reports keep saying the state need motive to prove intentional. I presume it will in this case at least make a big difference in sentencing.
They are still saying he could be found guilty of CH even though he shot 4 times which according to the law is murder, it is certainly confusing, I know that much.
 
yes........we do....he intentionally after forethought pulled the trigger and killed a person who was on the other side of a door.

But why? What made him flip, IF he knew it was Reeva?
 
Is motive something that must be proven in SA courts? It is not here in the US. Who can know what causes someone to commit murder? Look at the Fort Hood killer. Can anyone really get inside his head? and would anyone think. ok.. I understand his motive now? Will anyone who is not capable of murder understand motive?

What if he says.. she put on that accent I hate. And that was enough for him to shoot 4 times through a door at her. Would that make any better sense?

You don't need motive but it certainly helps.

It also renders insanity and diminished responsibility pleas less effective.
 
I've been following along on the OP threads the last few days without posting. Thanks to the many great posters on here for your thoughtful posts and detailed information.

I don't usually pay much attention to summer Olympics, but watched OP a bit in 2012 and had really admired him. Fast forward to February 2013 and when I saw the headlines about him shooting Reeva I felt great sympathy for Reeva and her family and also for OP, who I assumed had made a terrible mistake he would have to live with. Again, fast forward to just recently when I saw a headline about OP vomiting in court. Once again I felt sympathy for him. Sometime after that I started following this story a little more closely. Needless to say I now do not waste any sympathy on OP since I have learned what was in his affidavits and what witnesses have stated; I save my sympathy for the true victims in this case - Reeva and her family/friends.

I want to add in my own little anecdote about intruder fear. We live in a split level home. The sleeping area is on the highest level of our home, while the main floor has entrances/exits, kitchen, living room, etc. In the mornings I exercise in the sub-basement (a level below the main basement) while our son sleeps upstairs. My spouse leaves for work right around the time I begin my workout. We are pretty security conscious and keep main floor windows locked through the night and all doors, of course. My DH is careful to lock the door behind him when he leaves for work. One morning about a year ago my DH had been gone at least half an hour when I heard a heavy footfall upstairs on the main floor. I felt very vulnerable - an unarmed woman, working out in the lowest part of the home with 10lb weights strapped to my ankles. I knew it could not possibly be my son, nor my DH and was I was terrified. I heard more heavy footfalls as I unstrapped my ankle weights (20-30 seconds, allowing for shaking hands), grabbed a 15lb dumbbell to use as a weapon (5 seconds), ran to the first flight of stairs (3 seconds) and ran up 5 steps (3 seconds). My intention was to reach the cordless telephone at the top of those stairs and call 911 as I continued upstairs, and then to confront and attack the intruder. In the space of that time from when I first registered the heavy footfalls to when I reached the cordless phone (no more than 45 seconds at my best estimation) I came to the conclusion that it was more likely that it was DH returning, even though he had never done that (and never has since). I called out "WHO IS THERE?" and he of course immediately answered. (Since that day he has promised to call first if he has to return home, but it's never happened again.) What really strikes me in hindsight is how quickly our minds can work. You know the saying "My mind was racing"? It's true. In the space of 45 seconds I was able to discard the theory that it must be an intruder and go with the theory that it must be my DH, despite no evidence either way - just basic rationalizing (which is more likely - that it's an intruder or DH?), which I then confirmed by calling out.

OP's statements are simply nonsensical. Taken one at a time, the pieces of his statements that don't add up can possibly be explained away, if your stretch your imagination. Put together as a whole, I do not believe the events of that night could have possibly occurred the way he says it does. I have tried and tried to imagine this through OP's eyes, and to imagine it occurring the way he states. I can't. It's not even close to believable.
 
That's exactly my point though, what more than the screaming shows total intention or pre med. I'm not trying to be facetious or make light of what we 'think'....I just want something more solid, a stronger motive and reason for OP to WANT Reeva dead.

He has a motive. IMO he was a jealous, possessive, boyfriend with a temper and a fascination with guns. It is not unusual - just look at the stats of how many women are killed by their male partners. I don't find the idea that he killed her for that reason too surprising at all. I wouldn't say he 'wanted her dead' as that implies he planned it. I suspect he killed her in a momentary rage. He had not planned it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't premeditated. But proving that is difficult as, if he didn't plan it, he probably didn't write a note to someone that he was going to do it, and the only person who would really know that he killed her intentionally is dead.
 
He has a motive. IMO he was a jealous, possessive, boyfriend with a temper and a fascination with guns. It is not unusual - just look at the stats of how many women are killed by their male partners. I don't find the idea that he killed her for that reason too surprising at all. I wouldn't say he 'wanted her dead' as that implies he planned it. I suspect he killed her in a momentary rage. He had not planned it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't premeditated. But proving that is difficult as, if he didn't plan it, he probably didn't write a note to someone that he was going to do it, and the only person who would really know that he killed her intentionally is dead.

Fair comment.

We have a problem though if we don't test things to conclusion, as then a plea of momentary rage becomes the norm. There is a leniency in certain cases when somebody just flips out, and I don't want this to be an excuse for OP or anyone.

If he has stalked or planned to kill Reeva he deserves the maximum sentence possible. That is achievable but we have to go through due process.
 
But why? What made him flip, IF he knew it was Reeva?

I have a feeling we are going to find out next week! I am not in the camp that believes OP will take the truth about what happened with him to his grave, or write a book after he, if he, gets out of prison. I do believe there is evidence on one of the electronic devices of what Reeva learned that "forced" OP to have to murder her.

We shall see. :D
 
He has a motive. IMO he was a jealous, possessive, boyfriend with a temper and a fascination with guns. It is not unusual - just look at the stats of how many women are killed by their male partners. I don't find the idea that he killed her for that reason too surprising at all. I wouldn't say he 'wanted her dead' as that implies he planned it. I suspect he killed her in a momentary rage. He had not planned it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't premeditated. But proving that is difficult as, if he didn't plan it, he probably didn't write a note to someone that he was going to do it, and the only person who would really know that he killed her intentionally is dead.


Only Oscar himself can say WHY and what his motive/ catalyst was. I doubt he'll be truthful though :-(
 
From memory there were 2 keys on the outside of the door, on a green fob. These were found by van Remsburg, and he also said the bathroom door was locked.

I didn't think there was a door to the bathroom?
 
You see, I just don't get it.
Why he would be so scared by one little noise coming from the bathroom.
If he had been alone in the house, OK.
But he knew he wasn't.

Can anybody explain his "terror"?

That is my feeling exactly. As I move about my house at night with my husband sleeping or if he even gets up in the wee hrs. to get ready for work we both hears sounds BUT neither of us get our guns and start shooting at closed bathroom doors or any closed doors.
We do not live in a gated community with security.

I believe OP has a story to tell and so far it hasn't been the truth. I don't believe he would ever even whisper the truth to anyone.
Can't wait till Monday.
 
The motive for killing RS was stopping her screams and whatever story she'd tell about what he did/said that evening imo. The argument preceding her locking herself in the WC began with OP arriving home already upset about whatever "the hurdle" was RS had consoled him about a few hrs. earlier. She'd left for home, and returned just before he arrived. Why? What was the "hurdle"? Why her msg to OP that she'd understand if he needed to be with family that night? I think Nel will answer those questions and more, and we'll understand how OP's normal volatility escalated to mindless rage that night, when another night it wouldn't.
 
He has a motive. IMO he was a jealous, possessive, boyfriend with a temper and a fascination with guns. It is not unusual - just look at the stats of how many women are killed by their male partners. I don't find the idea that he killed her for that reason too surprising at all. I wouldn't say he 'wanted her dead' as that implies he planned it. I suspect he killed her in a momentary rage. He had not planned it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't premeditated. But proving that is difficult as, if he didn't plan it, he probably didn't write a note to someone that he was going to do it, and the only person who would really know that he killed her intentionally is dead.

Exactly. We have seen proof from their text conversations that there were problems in the relationship, that he was possessive, selfish and demanding, and that she was prepared to take these issues up with him. The suggestion is that he lost it. We aren't going to find any storybook motives like she was blackmailing him, or he bumped her off because he was the sole beneficiary in her will, etc. His character is the answer to the question of motive.
 
I have a feeling we are going to find out next week! I am not in the camp that believes OP will take the truth about what happened with him to his grave, or write a book after he, if he, gets out of prison. I do believe there is evidence on one of the electronic devices of what Reeva learned that "forced" OP to have to murder her.

We shall see. :D

Thanks Viper. I didn't think further/additional evidence could be presented, though, as prosecution has rested??

Thanks, if you can help me out.

Oh, general question for all - can the judge ask Oscar questions which she'd like clarified?
 
I bet Nel will take OP through a litany of romantic msgs he sent to RS replacement candidates the month before her death, putting the kabosh on the "deeply in love" lie and the idea he killed RS because she threatened to leave him.
 
Funny story about OPs ballistics expert guy:

A teenager witnessed a nightclub owner yelling at a man and then pulling a semiautomatic pistol and shooting the man in the head, killing him. Direct eyewitness that did not know either man, so case closed right? Noooo my friends! OPs ballistics guy tells the court that the witness was mistaken in what s/he saw because the ejected bullet casing landed too far away from where the two men were standing for the shooter to have shot the victim and be that close to the victim, so a bullet fired by someone else's gun had to have killed the man and not the bullet that the defendant fired from his gun! :confused: The killer wasted his money though, like OP seems to be doing, and he was convicted of murder.

Next week the ballistics guy is going to be fun. :smile:
 
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