Trial Discussion Thread #17

[steveml]

Why didn't OP fear someone hiding in the blind, back left corner of the shower? Maybe that's why Roux added "I heard movement in the toilet" to trial affi.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...61440452847/A-plan-of-Oscar-Pistorius-010.jpg

Thanks Deb,

The first place I'd want to look is the shower, as soon as I got round the corner.

I'm not sure what he'll say. The shower screen is glass/clear perspex, so anyone hiding would normally be clearly visible only in daylight or with a light on. After saying that, I haven't yet got a handle on how dark it was supposed to be in the bathroom. We've had suggestion of a light being on, ambient light and darkness.

 

[delilah]

For all we know, he only tried to 'render' assistance when Dr Stipp turned up unannounced. And seeing as OP was allegedly on his way out to the hospital with Reeva, why did he suddenly decide to stop and 'render' assistance? Why not 'render' this assistance when he pulled her out of the toilet? So he's carrying Reeva downstairs and he's on his way to hospital, when he suddenly decides to try and resuscitate her... losing more time in getting her medical help from professionals?

I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived.

A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived.
Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could.

Also, as someone else posted earlier, how come he was blind on the way to the bathroom and couldn't see Reeva, yet on the way back, by which time he still hadn't switched on the lights - his eyesight was miraculously restored and he could suddenly 'see' Reeva wasn't there? The guy has a screw loose if he seriously expects anyone to buy this load of absolute tripe.

On the blindness point, he didn't actually state that he could 'see' RS wasn't there - in his affidavit he says "I realised that Reeva was not in bed." So conceivably he could have just been feeling the bed for her.

Another possible bit of time wasting; he leaves RS in the bathroom to go downstairs to open the front door, meaning he has to go all the way back to the bathroom to pick her up. Why not bring her straight to the front door, then put her down to unlock the door?

 

[delilah]

Thanks Deb,

The first place I'd want to look is the shower, as soon as I got round the corner.

I'm not sure what he'll say. The shower screen is glass/clear perspex, so anyone hiding would normally be clearly visible only in daylight or with a light on. After saying that, I haven't yet got a handle on how dark it was supposed to be in the bathroom. We've had suggestion of a light being on, ambient light and darkness.

The logical thing for an intruder to do would be to take up a position to surprise OP. He couldn't do that stuck in the toilet cubicle. He's cornered.

 

[Zinn]

What language is it that's been removed Zinn?

I may have missed something here.

"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps."

 

[steveml]

The logical thing for an intruder to do would be to take up a position to surprise OP. He couldn't do that stuck in the toilet cubicle. He's cornered.

It's the best place to hide and wait until everyone's asleep. If you're in there armed or have a weapon, as most burglars do in SA, you have the surprise element first should anyone attempt to open the door.

 

[delilah]

What language is it that's been removed Zinn?

I may have missed something here.

I've completely missed this too. I suddenly noticed that everyone was saying the bedroom door hadn't been locked, contrary to earlier accounts, but I missed where that came from. Can anyone enlighten us?

 

[Cherwell]

Is it possible the bedroom and bathroom key are on the same key ring? The photo of the bathroom key isn't clear enough for me to see how many keys are attached. If both keys are on the same ring, I can see how he would feel trapped in the bedroom if he knew Reeva had locked herself inside the toilet room with both keys. But if he didn't know the bedroom key was locked in the toilet area, why would he feel trapped? Wouldn't he have access to the key?

If there is more than one key on that ring, then surely it's highly likely that they are spare keys.

There's no reason why anyone would want to lock the loo from the outside, so the logical place for that key is inside the toilet, in the lock. I suggest that's where it would be in 99% of households.

The bedroom door is another matter, one might keep that key in the lock for convenience, or possibly on a bunch of house keys. It depends how regularly the door gets locked. If one perceives the biggest danger of a break-in is likely to occur downstairs, one might be in the habit of locking the bedroom door at night. Either way, I can't see any logic or convenience in having the bedroom and toilet door keys on the same ring - unless they are spares.

 

[delilah]

It's the best place to hide and wait until everyone's asleep. If you're in there armed or have a weapon, as most burglars do in SA, you have the surprise element first should anyone attempt to open the door.

Don't buy that. You'd be making a noise closing the door and you'd be less aware of what is going on around you. I presume a burglar would not take up such a position in order to wait for someone to have a wee, surprise them with double tap to the head then rob them.

 

[Insp.Dots]

If there was 'solid' evidence, we wouldn't be hear arguing the case for and against.

As the state said, the case is based largely on circumstantial evidence. OP is the only living visual witness to the actual crime, and he has a good reason for not telling the truth, if indeed he has not done so so far.

This was the suspected murder of a woman by her boyfriend, whom she had admitted being scared of, in a country where violence against women is endemic.

It features a defendant's account which, to a lot of people here, begs many questions and has created a sense of incredulity. Maybe he will provide satisfactory answers to at least some of them, although I'm guessing he won't be able to. If he can provide a plausible account of:

what he did between the alleged shots and alleged bat bashes (7 mins plus)
why he didn't phone for help during that time
why it took him so long to bash down the toilet door
why he didn't press the panic button before taking on the 'intruder', or afterwards
why he didn't fire a warning shot
why he kept on firing
why he fired at all when he hadn't even seen the alleged assailant
why he didn't check on RS before moving into the bathroom to take on the 'intruder'
why it didn't occur to him that, even though he thought he heard the window open, he hadn't heard any noises of the 'intruder' entering the bathroom
why it never occurred to him that it could have been RS in the bathroom/toilet (until he'd shot her)
why he claimed RS was still alive over 9 mins after he says he shot her

then maybe I might believe him.

Yes, I wasn't asking whether people believed his version (so far). My point was that the state so far have shown little evidence of motive or pre-med/intentional murder which is what is needed by the Judge.
I know lots of liars and arrogant fools but it doesn't make them Cold blooded Murderers.
I would want a lot more than people's opinion on OP as a man, before I made judgement. You can't lock someone up for over 25 years on circumstantial evidence which is why some are looking for more. Just because we do this doesn't make us OP apologists or supporters.
My personal opinion of OP is certainly not a good one, but that makes no difference whatsoever in searching for the truth. If anything it makes me more determined in finding the truth which would stop any possibility of trial by media, a miscarriage of Justice or injustice to Reeva or OP getting out on appeal in a years time as his trial was prejudiced

ALL MY OWN OPINION AND THOUGHTS, PLEASE DONT JUDGE OR BELITTLE ME FOR THEM. THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON ON TRIAL.

 

[DebinGA]

The logical thing for an intruder to do would be to take up a position to surprise OP. He couldn't do that stuck in the toilet cubicle. He's cornered.

Roux/OP will claim the terror was so overwhelming that logic went out the window with RS's jeans, and OP's panicked reaction was immediate and excusable under the circumstances. Can't wait to see Nel easily refute that.

 

[steveml]

Don't buy that. You'd be making a noise closing the door and you'd be less aware of what is going on around you. I presume a burglar would not take up such a position in order to wait for someone to have a wee, surprise them with double tap to the head then rob them.

If I managed to get into the bathroom, I'd wait in there to make sure there I couldn't hear movement in the house and it was quiet before moving on.

Where would you hide delilah?

* I'm not suggesting you're a burglar and would know - mine's just a guess as well.

 

[Viper]

I do wonder why the language about the locked bedroom door has been removed.

Is it possible the bedroom and bathroom key are on the same key ring? The photo of the bathroom key isn't clear enough for me to see how many keys are attached. If both keys are on the same ring, I can see how he would feel trapped in the bedroom if he knew Reeva had locked herself inside the toilet room with both keys. But if he didn't know the bedroom key was locked in the toilet area, why would he feel trapped? Wouldn't he have access to the key?

Also wondering if perhaps the language about the locked door was removed as it was decided it was best to avoid scrutiny of the bedroom door, given the damage shown in photos.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

Hi Zinn, great post.

BIB1. I suspect that the bedroom door and the bathroom door operate with the same key. It would be very inconvenient to have to fumble with two keys in your master bedroom suite. Seeing two keys on a silly looking fob indicates to me that OP received two keys for the bedroom/WC and left both on a fob. No sense in keeping one in his personal keychain and leaving all of that hanging in his bedroom door at night.

BIB2. Indeed!!! Great point!

BIB3. Agreed. Once OP damaged the doors enough to be able to force them open while the locking pin was engaged the wood would be so damaged that even if they were closed and locked afterwards they would not be secure anymore and would be easy to open without unlocking.

 

[steveml]

If there is more than one key on that ring, then surely it's highly likely that they are spare keys.

There's no reason why anyone would want to lock the loo from the outside, so the logical place for that key is inside the toilet, in the lock. I suggest that's where it would be in 99% of households.

The bedroom door is another matter, one might keep that key in the lock for convenience, or possibly on a bunch of house keys. It depends how regularly the door gets locked. If one perceives the biggest danger of a break-in is likely to occur downstairs, one might be in the habit of locking the bedroom door at night. Either way, I can't see any logic or convenience in having the bedroom and toilet door keys on the same ring - unless they are spares.

From memory there were 2 keys on the outside of the door, on a green fob. These were found by van Remsburg, and he also said the bathroom door was locked.

 

[nastasya]

Without having heard the Defence's side we seem to be stuck with varying scenarios. Apart from the screaming and 4 shots do we have any other 'solid' evidence of pre-meditation or intentional murder?

At some point victim left bedroom and walked into bathroom.

At some point victim entered toilet area.

At some point door was closed.

At some point killer retrieved his loaded gun.

Killer followed victim into bathroom.

Killer raised his gun and shot victim, inflicting life-threatening wound to victim's right hip.

Victim fell to the ground.

Killer fired three additional shots, killing victim instantly with shot to victim's head.

Witnesses heard man and woman arguing prior to gun shots.

Witnesses heard woman screaming prior to gun shots.

Witnesses heard man and woman's voice intermingled.

Killer admits that he fired four shots at victim.

Killer admits that he killed victim with gun shots.

Killer admits that he screamed.

Killer admits that victim never threatened him.

Killer admits that he fired gun intentionally and with purpose in direction of victim.


The only evidence killer denies is that victim screamed or made any sound at all prior to killer shooting victim.

 

[delilah]

If I managed to get into the bathroom, I'd wait in there to make sure there I couldn't hear movement in the house and it was quiet before moving on.

Where would you hide delilah?

* I'm not suggesting you're a burglar and would know - mine's just a guess as well.

Either by the sinks or at the point at the end of the corridor but into the bathroom so that anyone coming along the corridor and turning into the bathroom gets a double tap to the head.

PS I am not and have never been a burglar.

 

[Gryffindor]

It's the best place to hide and wait until everyone's asleep. If you're in there armed or have a weapon, as most burglars do in SA, you have the surprise element first should anyone attempt to open the door.

I'd posted a few pages back the burglar could've ducked down at the top of the ladders (they were left there according to Oscar, remember) and sprung up , firing away at Oscar, the open target . . .

 

[Insp.Dots]

Good question. We don't know where they were originally found.

This is the point Roux was making to [FONT=&quot]Col Schoombie van Remsburd, for which he couldn't provide an answer. Roux asked why photographs submitted after the crime scene are included with photographs of things which were moved later for photographing. SAPS have not labelled before and after on many (or any) of these.

He made an example of the white iPhone that was originally under a towel. The iPhone was then was then moved out in the open to photograph (you'd presume it was found out in the open). What you would normally do is take a photo (with a note explaining that it was under found under the towel) then move the item for a clear photo and label as such.

I suspect the Blackberry phones may have even been found in another room, and all the phones were put together for photography purposes, as nothing was mentioned about these during the trial by prosecution.

[/FONT]

The thing that really frustrates me in this is the complete mess that 'some' investigators who were first on the scene made. How can we be confident in the evidence when mistakes were so needlessly made. You would think that the moment they realized how big this would be and the international interest, they would be extra careful in their handling of it.
There is no excuse for it IMO they are trained to do a job. I feel sad for Reeva's parents as they deserve more, as did she. Both lawyers must also find it frustrating, and you could see that when poor Nel realized the photos were wrongly dated. It's like being given a jigsaw to complete with missing pieces......you have to complete it but you know it's impossible.
Rant over......

 

[Viper]

The thing that really frustrates me in this is the complete mess that 'some' investigators who were first on the scene made. How can we be confident in the evidence when mistakes were so needlessly made. You would think that the moment they realized how big this would be and the international interest, they would be extra careful in their handling of it.
There is no excuse for it IMO they are trained to do a job. I feel sad for Reeva's parents as they deserve more, as did she. Both lawyers must also find it frustrating, and you could see that when poor Nel realized the photos were wrongly dated. It's like being given a jigsaw to complete with missing pieces......you have to complete it but you know it's impossible.
Rant over......

OP can use that stuff in his appeal after his conviction, so there is that for him. :smile:

 

[Insp.Dots]

At some point victim left bedroom and walked into bathroom.

At some point victim entered toilet area.

At some point door was closed.

At some point killer retrieved his loaded gun.

Killer followed victim into bathroom.

Killer raised his gun and shot victim, inflicting life-threatening wound to victim's right hip.

Victim fell to the ground.

Killer fired three additional shots, killing victim instantly with shot to victim's head.

Witnesses heard man and woman arguing prior to gun shots.

Witnesses heard woman screaming prior to gun shots.

Witnesses heard man and woman's voice intermingled.

Killer admits that he fired four shots at victim.

Killer admits that he killed victim with gun shots.

Killer admits that he screamed.

Killer admits that victim never threatened him.

Killer admits that he fired gun intentionally and with purpose in direction of victim.


The only evidence killer denies is that victim screamed or made any sound at all prior to killer shooting victim.

That's exactly my point though, what more than the screaming shows total intention or pre med. I'm not trying to be facetious or make light of what we 'think'....I just want something more solid, a stronger motive and reason for OP to WANT Reeva dead.

 

[Insp.Dots]

OP can use that stuff in his appeal after his conviction, so there is that for him. :smile:

EXACTLY, If he is found guilty, I don't want Reeva's family to have to go through it all again.....they shouldn't have to be left with unanswered questions!