Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[molly333]

Reeva could quite easily have got out the other side.

If the bed was empty, I'd do that without anything being on the floor. If I was going to the loo I wouldn't get out towards the patio, and walk *all the way around the bed. I'd do the shortcut and get out the other side.

*'all the way'...lol...I know, it's not a long way, and it makes me sound sooo lazy. :doh:

For sure. I doubt she would want to have to deal with the fans, computers, extension cords, and clothes in the dark. And, she might have decided to grab the chance while he was up and she could exit through his side of the bed.

Assuming anything made sense in this case, that is.

 

[IfIMay]

Lol Molly, SA is a beautiful place to live..it's the very reason why we haven't followed a lot of our fellow countrymen and left for "greener" shores. All who stay have hope that things will get better and we appreciate and make do with all we have. A lot of South Africans are not ready to thrown in the towel after all this county has been through.

My parents visited a few years ago and fell in love with it and it's people. I hope to visit myself one day. Just not anywhere near paranoid, gun-toting olympic athletes. :wink:

whew. I love that Nel ended giving Oscar the weekend to come up with new lines, additions, qualifications and fabrications. He's got a lot to remember over the break.

 

[Emz73]

Truth be told, if it was indeed an intruder, I have no doubt he would have been hailed a hero!

Really? Not from most people I know here in the Uk!!! In those circumstances, no direct threat, behind a closed door??

Thank god for our gun laws.

 

[Carol70]

But your dad was not shooting just at danger. He was shooting at serious criminals, clearly, who had already committed a terrible crime against him and your mom, and who were going to commit more. Your dad's a hero. But he wouldn't have been a hero if he had thought the noise in the other room was an intruder and shot your mother to death by mistake.

Exactly, he wouldn't have been a hero at all..but he wouldn't have been subject to a lengthy trial and immediately slapped with a premeditated murder charge either. The sympathy for the tragic events would have rained down like silver glitter on Xmas eve and charges would have been dropped.

 

[supernovaNic]

You don't call a witness a liar when he's in the box. The judge said this. Is that true? Does she mean you can't use the word "liar" but you can say it another way like 'you are not telling the truth.' And is OP a witness?

 

[Carol70]

Really? Not from most people I know here in the Uk!!! In those circumstances, no direct threat, behind a closed door??

Thank god for our gun laws.

We also have gun laws, clearly, no one cares about them!

 

[weeeva]

I think the disbelief is that, by his own account, Oscar was screaming and shouting. If he was screaming and shouting why wouldn't she say anything at all?

Because she would not want an intruder to know where she was.

 

[Magdalyn]

Reeva would not know that OP was mistaking her for an intruder. For all Reeva knew the intruder could have been on the balcony or in the bedroom. Also she would not want an intruder to know where she was, so would keep quiet.

Even in the millisecond after the intruder took her by complete surprise by shooting through the door at her and shattering her hip... and her collapsing on a magazine rack?

 

[shane13]

Reeva would not know that OP was mistaking her for an intruder. For all Reeva knew the intruder could have been on the balcony or in the bedroom. Also she would not want an intruder to know where she was, so would keep quiet.

No.

This is what Reeva knew in this regard.
1. Just had a heated argument with OP for an hour.
2. Escalated to something very serious, forcing her to flee.
3. No one else in bathroom!
Obviously she put on light to see her way into the loo. No one else in the bathroom.
4. Heard OP come after her. (He prob. was screaming at her.)
5. Recognized his voice threatening her.
6. Much worse: re bashing in a door panel that I won't get into now.

 

[supernovaNic]

Is is possible that an argument ensued because Reeva forgot to bring in the fans and shut the sliding door, and that's why this happened at 3:00a.m. ish?

 

[jay-jay]

Hello all,

This is my first post on this site so thought I’d introduce myself. I am a criminology graduate, currently on maternity leave and in that time this trial has gripped me! It was through searching for discussion on the trial that I came across this fabulous website.

I’m just going to get straight in to it and the way yesterday's questioning ended really got me thinking. OP said yesterday that the fan was not blocking the exit on to the balcony and that the police had moved it there. He stated that the fan, in relation to the police photo was further towards where the bed sheet is on the floor and I'm sure he said it would have been sitting on top of the quilt, although in his version the quilt was not there. However to me, this contradicts OP’s previous statement that the hind leg of the fan’s tripod stand was actually out on the balcony. From my perspective of the photograph if the fan was sitting where the quilt was on the floor, then the hind leg could not reach on to the balcony. However the fact that Nel did not pick up on this as soon as OP said it surprised me. Maybe it’s just my perspective.

I look forward to further discussing proceedings with you all.

BIB 1: Yess! .. thank you for confirming that to me .. I had been thinking/wondering the exact same thing but thought that I must've got a bit confused over it and hadn't had time to go back and verify (what with everything that's happened today in court!).

BIB2: I'm getting the impression that Nel is just stopping short on a number of these things because he's got OP to admit/confirm small bits of evidence without OP realising it .. and I don't think OP wants a situation yet where OP admits to something really massive because that would mean he would have to confess .. and I think Nel wants to take OP as far as he can go through this case, in order to get answers to every little outstanding question and also in order to make OP squirm as long as possible!

.. and welcome, by the way!

 

[whiterum]

I couldn't get straight today - Nel asked and asked about the home security. OP gave a lot of info, especially about what builders did to the sensors before in 2010, when he had to get them tested, and what builders MIGHT have done to them that week. But did he say there was any part of the alarm he knew wasn't working that night?

All I can work out is he said he set it, and then deactivated it out of habit when he left the bedroom. Maybe I missed something.

Also, he said he didn't run out of the bedroom door as he was afraid he'd slip on tiles. Are there tiles outside the bedroom door?

There are also tiles on the bathroom floor yet with gun in hand he marched towards the noise , then with stumps on tiles aimed and fired four shots without slipping and shooting through the ceiling.

 

[molly333]

Because she would not want an intruder to know where she was.

Yeah, you just can't predict what someone would do.

Do I really think it happened the way he said? No.

But, I can't prove it.

The only possibility I've seen so far that might work towards guilt--I think she was dressed in street clothes, and the contents of her stomach showing she ate at 1am not 7pm.

That would suggest they never went to bed that night and the fight started downstairs with her fleeing to the bedroom.

But it's not enough for me, yet.

 

[Emz73]

I'm about half way through today's testimony. Oscar is doing much better on the stand today than in the two previous days IMO. He's much better about saying he doesn't understand the question and not just going along with whatever Nel is saying.

Still his emotions seem to be very close to the surface at all times - that I attribute to stress more than remorse or emotion over the incident.

Most news reports...CNN,SKY etc thought this was his worst day. Funny how people see things differently.

 

[ShadyLady]

....and what intruder puts light on in bathroom? Witness says light was on.

"I was never ready to shoot", really so much of his testimony is laughable if it were not so serious.

And whoever brought up the point about how much urine Reeva had in bladder, she had no reason for going to bathroom with phone. And OP said he took his time getting to bathroom, and her pants were not down. And if he was shouting "Reeva phone the police"......why didn't she? I don't think Reeva thought he would shoot her.

And how many times has OP now said, he did it all to protect Reeva....the hypocrisy....

I hope we don't see the OJ verdict again!!

 

[Carmelita]

You don't call a witness a liar when he's in the box. The judge said this. Is that true? Does she mean you can't use the word "liar" but you can say it another way like 'you are not telling the truth.' And is OP a witness?

I don't know. The SA court system obviously has a lot more latitude than the American system. Perhaps the judge simply did not want the prosecutor to call OP a liar, but that is just my interpretation of the courts demeanor.

There has to be a youtube video out there of I believe Ed Bagley being comforted by the judge and the judge either calling him "dear" or "honey" and asking him if he wanted a glass of water.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I couldn't get straight today - Nel asked and asked about the home security. OP gave a lot of info, especially about what builders did to the sensors before in 2010, when he had to get them tested, and what builders MIGHT have done to them that week. But did he say there was any part of the alarm he knew wasn't working that night?

All I can work out is he said he set it, and then deactivated it out of habit when he left the bedroom. Maybe I missed something.

Also, he said he didn't run out of the bedroom door as he was afraid he'd slip on tiles. Are there tiles outside the bedroom door?

I missed virtually all of today's proceedings but I am surprised he said this. Did Nel not pick him up on it? OP walks around in the bathroom on tiles on his stumps or he did on the day he shot Reeva.

 

[Carol70]

I didn't get the alarm conversation either.

OP didn't seem to say too much about it and his explanations were quite vague.
I was a bit surprised that they hadn't obtained more info. about the alarm. When Nel said 'I haven't seen your alarm' or words to that effect, I thought it was going to all get a bit muddy.
The PT would have probably made more progress if they'd inspected the alarm system more thoroughly before that line of questioning IMO.

It ended up with two guys both not really understanding what each other was talking about.

I don't think Nel is going to follow up on the alarm part, because he knows very well that even thought you could be living in Fort Knox, if burglars want access, they will gain access, regardless of dogs, alarms, security etc. OP fear could still have been very real even though he presumably had his alarm activated etc. I believe the alarm is a dead end with Nel.

I really didn't want to bring this up because I can't link to it so it's hearsay but I belong to another closed parenting forum where one of the mothers is a rape survivor, she now is a councillor for lifeline but she was victim to an invasion where they gained access to her home via a small second story bathroom window. She heard a noise in the bathroom and went to investigate and that was it. To this day, she doesn't know how they got into her bathroom.

I found this too for anyone interested: it includes lots of stats about SA crime.

Zinn’s research also identified measures that individual households could take to minimise the risk of their particular residence becoming a target. These measures included multiple security layers such as perimeter security, security lights, CCTV systems, alarm systems and even the presence of small dogs inside the home. However, determined and well-organised perpetrators can overcome all of these security measures.

http://www.issafrica.org/iss-today/...-we-know-about-home-robberies-in-south-africa

 

[jay-jay]

Is is possible that an argument ensued because Reeva forgot to bring in the fans and shut the sliding door, and that's why this happened at 3:00a.m. ish?

Well, don't forget that all that 'fan bringing in' thing was all just part of OP's testimony/fairy story so we don't even know whether that bit happened (asking Reeva to bring in the fans) or not, let alone whether it could've triggered an argument.

 

[Interested Bystander]

My parents visited a few years ago and fell in love with it and it's people. I hope to visit myself one day. Just not anywhere near paranoid, gun-toting olympic athletes. :wink:

whew. I love that Nel ended giving Oscar the weekend to come up with new lines, additions, qualifications and fabrications. He's got a lot to remember over the break.

I heard a lawyer suggest that Nel intentionally carried over until next week as Roux is not allowed to speak to OP whilst he is still under cross examination.