Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[Carmelita]

I have to run but I have to disagree with the criticism of it being possible for Oscar to have been "screaming like a woman".

I fell from a 12 foot high concrete slab and broke some bones. The fall was purely accidental caused by a small child jumping on me in a playful way. I screamed on the way down and I remember getting up and say “what is wrong with my voice?” I was screaming and didn’t know it. Oscar was in an extreme situation (regardless of what anyone believes the situation was) how his voice was modulated during that time is simply an unknown and he could have very easily been shrill and sounded like a "woman".

 

[aa9511]

Thanks for your response, BritsKate! You answered my question.

 

[BritsKate]

Again that is a reporter's take on one or two sentences of his testimony. If you read the transcript what follows is him saying that the two marks on the door were consistant with OP using the bat to bang on the door "to scare Reeva." That is saying that the bat strike sounds came before OP murdered Reeva. He also goes on to testify that it is not scientifically possible to determine which came first, the two bat strikes or the four bullets. That last piece is easy to understand; neither of the two bat marks have a bullet hole going through them, so it is impossible to say which came first. One of the panels was broken out of the door and it tore threw a bullet hole; tearing or prying a panel out using the tip of the bat is what the expert was describing.

We agree. I posted what I did because I agree with that statement. The shots were before the door came down. Now...how that door came down is another matter and I personally believe the panels were pryed or wedged out.

I too also remember Vermeulen being asked on redirect about kicking or hitting the door. I thought my post was clear so my apologies it clearly wasn't.

 

[liesbeth]

I'm missing something. I thought PT already conceded shots-bats at the time or not long after Vermeulen the same as conceding OP was likely on stumps when he shot. If I am wrong then Nel's either has something up his sleeve or I seem to recall him inferring several times during the trial that the PT's case is having to adapt as the DT disclose evidence the PT didn't had no knowledge of before this time.

Mr. Nel said it was [Correction: I originally wrote "wasn't"] his case that OP was on his stumps when he fired.

Nel also stated very clearly (during an objection to Roux's cross examination of a witness) that it was the state's case that the shots were fired around 03:17, that Reeva was alive before that time.

Found a link:
Nel: There were two sets of noises. "Our case is there were four shots in the region of 03:17." She was screaming before 03:17.
and then later...
Nel: I agree that after 3.17 the deceased would not have been able to scream...

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...PDATES-Pistoriual-trial-day-4-part-2-20140306

 

[DebinGA]

...
I think there is only around 8" or 10" difference in height between OP with and without his legs on which is not a huge height difference IMO
So I think I will wait until Nel's final closing arguments before making my mind up on this

Pic of OP with "legs" off: http://www.runnersworld.co.za/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2012/07/Oscar.jpeg

Looks to me like your 8-10" estimate is about right.

 

[soozieqtips]

I have to run but I have to disagree with the criticism of it being possible for Oscar to have been "screaming like a woman".

I fell from a 12 foot high concrete slab and broke some bones. The fall was purely accidental caused by a small child jumping on me in a playful way. I screamed on the way down and I remember getting up and say “what is wrong with my voice?” I was screaming and didn’t know it. Oscar was in an extreme situation (regardless of what anyone believes the situation was) how his voice was modulated during that time
is simply an unknown and he could have very easily been shrill and sounded like a "woman".

BBM - Roux promised to show the court evidence that OP screamed like a woman. Not sure if that was after he was going to prove the head shot came first, which he still hasn't proved, but still... maybe he'll remember his promise to prove both those things.

 

[soozieqtips]

If OP ends up going to jail, will the Judge add on an extra year for the time he's spent out on bail?

 

[aa9511]

How many people wear sound-muffling earphone thing-a-majiggys at the cricket matches??

I'd like answer for that from the people who think cricket and gun shots would sound the same to where the Stipps and Burger and Johnson were.

 

[Viper]

Thank you, I think you answered my question too.

So regarding the cracks - all cracks/broken panels occured after the shooting, is this confirmed?

I'm trying to determine if any of the cracks or any broken part could have occured before the shooting?

TIA.

BIB. This is a good question! I don't believe that Mr. Nel expected OP to say what he did and that is probably why he did not go after him on it, but OP described what he did to get the door open. (paraphrasing) He said that he struck the door and a piece of wood fell off, he could see Reeva... I almost want to believe that is true, but that it happened before he killed her, he could see her through the small crack.

 

[ShadyLady]

BIB. Mr. Nel touched on this issue yesterday. That OP killed Reeva, broke apart the door, and carried her downstairs is true; the rest of his fairy tale is not true. And so it seems that the DT is desperate to find anything, any infinitesimal thing, that they can point to and say, "We proved that this small detail of his version is true." Even a single kick to the door.

Kicking door to me seems like "anger"....anger that Reeva locked herself in toilette to escape him. I also believe he hit her before she escaped. And he damaged the bedroom door to get to her as well...imo

 

[Murphys_Law]

BBM. How can Mr. Dixon be sure that OP kicked the door. The panels were on the bathroom floor after OP broke open the door. It is possible that he stepped on the door panels. He could also have used the legs to hit the door. (There was damage visible on the legs on the photographs.) I wonder why the kicking of the door is so important to the defense?

Good observation Liesbeth.
I agree, the kicking is important with respect to explaining away the damage to the legs -- which is extensive!

I have attached a composite of the photos publicly available depicting the damage to the legs.


The damage IMHO, was caused by extreme blunt force.

Photo#4
I do not have a firm opinion yet on what "tool" or hard object caused the long (at least 6" in length) and deep groove/gouge mark to the left leg as depicted in photo #4.

Photos #1 & #2
IMHO, the crescent shaped puncture on the right leg shin area (as depicted in photo #1), could have been caused by an slightly oval shaped hard object (such as the handle end of the cricket bat) with the force directly medially and upward, hence the smudge above.

Blood first, damage later...
More incriminating than the degree of damage to the legs, is the observation that the two most prominent punctures/gouge marks appear to have happened AFTER the blood staining. I say this because of the apparent smudging above the mark on the right leg, and what appears to be a void in the blood staining of blood on the right leg. Further, neither of the gouge marks seem to contain any blood.

ALL the above is simply my opinion based on poor quality photos...FWIW

 

[aa9511]

Mmmmm, now Nel wants to know why witness is answering question 'like that'?


Now witness has agreed 'I am not a blood spatter expert'.

And Nel refers to where he gave testimony about blood spatter....

:floorlaugh:

Omgggg, this is getting to be just as ridiculous as Oscar on the stand.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BBM - Roux promised to show the court evidence that OP screamed like a woman. Not sure if that was after he was going to prove the head shot came first, which he still hasn't proved, but still... maybe he'll remember his promise to prove both those things.

I hope Roux will have long given up on the head shot being first and would be stunned beyond belief if he tried to bring in evidence to that theory again .
I did wonder if OP 's screaming in court was orchestrated by Roux .
If it was it was a very big fail

 

[BritsKate]

The state has not conceded that the gunshots were the first sounds heard by the Stipps. The state gives no explanation for what those sounds were, but argues that the second sounds were the gunshots.

I agree the State may not have been blatant about the first bangs but do believe its been alluded that the toilet door may have been hit or kicked. Specifically with the intent to scare someone.

They haven't 1+1=2 but I don't believe they've ignored those sounds entirely. On the flip side, if I'm not mistaken, the defence contends the earlier bangs were shots and the latter the bat strikes but I can't get that timeline to work at all. It's inconsistent with Oscar's testimony and leaves approximately 20 minutes before Oscar ever rang anyone for help. So far, for me, the defence seems to ignore the ear witnesses timings but concedes they heard Oscar screaming like a woman.

JMO

 

[aa9511]

BIB. This is a good question! I don't believe that Mr. Nel expected OP to say what he did and that is probably why he did not go after him on it, but OP described what he did to get the door open. (paraphrasing) He said that he struck the door and a piece of wood fell off, he could see Reeva... I almost want to believe that is true, but that it happened before he killed her, he could see her through the small crack.

Thanks for this.

That is very interesting.

 

[soozieqtips]

OP met Reeva on November 4th, 2012. So they had known each other for 3 months (not 4 months) and had only been 'serious' for a few weeks. That the relationship careered downhill so fast in what's generally known as the honeymoon phase is very strange. In my opinion, not a loving relationship that worked both ways. OP was like a child and Reeva was like his mum, reminding him to come and brush his teeth.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BIB. This is a good question! I don't believe that Mr. Nel expected OP to say what he did and that is probably why he did not go after him on it, but OP described what he did to get the door open. (paraphrasing) He said that he struck the door and a piece of wood fell off, he could see Reeva... I almost want to believe that is true, but that it happened before he killed her, he could see her through the small crack.

The state have said all along that OP took aimed over the basin and I think Nel mentioned that in cross exam of OP .
All shots were in the left hand portion of the Toilet room and there was no damage on about 50/60% of the back wall opposite the door which is where you would expect an intruder to be .
Why would OP think they would be by the basin/wc if he thought they were going to burst out at him armed and dangerous

 

[aa9511]

Good observation Liesbeth.
I agree, the kicking is important with respect to explaining away the damage to the legs -- which is extensive!

I have attached a composite of the photos publicly available depicting the damage to the legs.


The damage IMHO, was caused by extreme blunt force.

Photo#4
I do not have a firm opinion yet on what "tool" or hard object caused the long (at least 6" in length) and deep groove/gouge mark to the left leg as depicted in photo #4.

Photos #1 & #2
IMHO, the crescent shaped puncture on the right leg shin area (as depicted in photo #1), could have been caused by an slightly oval shaped hard object (such as the handle end of the cricket bat) with the force directly medially and upward, hence the smudge above.

Blood first, damage later...
More incriminating than the degree of damage to the legs, is the observation that the two most prominent punctures/gouge marks appear to have happened AFTER the blood staining. I say this because of the apparent smudging above the mark on the right leg, and what appears to be a void in the blood staining of blood on the right leg. Further, neither of the gouge marks seem to contain any blood.

ALL the above is simply my opinion based on poor quality photos...FWIW

But why on earth does he have damage to his legs in the first place?

Wow thank you for those pics.

So do you think there was some scuffle before the toilet room, and Reeva was trying to protect herself and hit his legs with the bat?

 

[soozieqtips]

I hope Roux will have long given up on the head shot being first and would be stunned beyond belief if he tried to bring in evidence to that theory again .
I did wonder if OP 's screaming in court was orchestrated by Roux .
If it was it was a very big fail

BBM - I wondered the same thing.

And as for Roux, he denied all the female screams were from Reeva claiming she couldn't possibly have screamed because the head shot was first... and he was absolutely going to prove it. Well, it didn't come first, and he didn't prove it so now we have to have OP screaming like a female instead.

 

[canny]

I doubt that this is a lie. Many people use two types of ammunition. One for range shooting, one for protection and actually a third for hunters who use specific ammunition suited to their game.

The gun Oscar used seems to have been his gun for personal safety, it would make sense that he would keep it loaded with bullets that were capable of doing a lot of damage.

If I am at the range I use cheap bullets, but at home I have hollow points that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at an intruder.

You are legally within your rights to shoot at an intruder. In SA OP can shot an intruder only under certain well defined circumstances. A few months prior to murdering Reeva, he passed the gun ownership test with flying colors answering all the questions adhering to all the required government rules and regulations.