Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

[BritsKate]

I'm reposting this link. Clearly, despite what our personal interpretations of testimony may be, a sequence between the bat strikes and gunshots could not be established definitively.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2014/03/13/oscar-trial-expert-can-t-fix-sequence-of-shots-bashing

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[TipDog]

Every single trial I've followed here over the years... Murderers always have a few supporters. IMO

Well, I'd really like to know out of sheer curiosity. I pondered OP's version myself and didn't just assume he was guilty. I also kept from reading all the speculation about this murder in the weeks following 2/14/13 (mainly because I find speculation before the trial begins and evidence is presented a waste of time).

But after hearing OP's testimony, Nel's aggressive style aside, I was floored. In fact, I didn't even step foot on here until my gut began nudging me into the "absolutely guilty" camp (and I wanted to join the discussion). It was OP's testimony that did it, not the earwitnesses or any of the other evidence. It was OP and the many lies he's told. Nel should not have called him a liar in the witness box and deserved the admonishing by the judge, but he really did say the very thing I was thinking and still do think.

Perhaps others don't see the lies as lies? And, of course, I've seen a lot of blame thrown Nel's way, as if he can make someone lie under oath. It's just not in my personality to buy that.

 

[Mr Fossil]

They were having an argument. OP is on his prosthetics throughout. He wants Reeva to leave.

I suggest that he chased Reeva upstairs and she locked the bedroom door. He barged it to open it (the primary door would give, that's why he offers that information to the judge as he's using it in his lies) which leads to the marks on the second door, which probably didn't give because of the latch into the floor.

Reeva has the cricket bat to defend herself and runs to the bathroom with it (as he breaks the bedroom door open) and opens the bathroom window thinking optimistically that it might be a way to escape. Realising it isn't, she drops the bat in the bathroom and locks herself in the toilet. She has her phone with her.

OP is mad. He picks up his gun (or he already had it as he chased Reeva upstairs).

He screams "get the *advertiser censored** out of my house" at Reeva as he chases her to the bathroom.

If his first shot occurred at the earlier time and was followed by the three bat strikes (from the bat Reeva has dropped in the bathroom), that would account for the earlier sounds. Reeva is hit in the leg and falls, screaming at OP, and threatens to call the police. He sarcastically screams "call the police". OP looks through a crack caused by the bat strikes to locate Reeva and then aims the second set of three shots. The crack that deviates through one of the bullet holes is then caused by OP ripping the panel out. It is after this that Dr Stipp hears OP screaming "help, help, help" (which makes more sense to me than OP's version which he says is after the first 'bangs').

She dies quickly from the head wound as he carries her downstairs but is alive long enough to create the arterial spurts that are found.

Does this all work?

 

[minor4th]

If he is convicted and sentenced to serve time in jail, presumably he will lodge an appeal? If this is the case is there any chance he would remain free pending the outcome of the appeal?

It seems so unfair that he has taken a life but for most of the last year or so he has been living the life of Riley in a posh mansion in the lap of luxury!

It's possible that he can remain free on bond during appeals, but it's not certain.

 

[IfIMay]

It doesn't begin and end there. You should always use additional evidence to strengthen a claim, if at all possible. This is exactly why the photographers were in the Stipps house.

It'll be interesting to see reaction if a close neighbour appears on the witness stand and testifies to hearing OP scream at the times when Reeva was supposed to be screaming.

Can I trust they'll have everyone's support?

depends on if they hold up under cross. If they do, well.. we'll see if they show up first and go from there. I expect you will have a critical eye as to how they could possibly know themselves, right?

 

[HauntsForHope]

Did OP say that he put the cricket bat under the bedroom door handle because, even when locked, the fit of the door was such that it didn't hold that well?

If so, I suggest that he chased Reeva upstairs and she locked the bedroom door. He barged it to open it (the primary door would give, that's why he offers that information to the judge as he's using it in his lies) which leads to the marks on the second door, which probably didn't give because of the latch into the floor.

This is interesting. I thought I remembered seeing early in the trial, photos of a small hole in the bedroom door and an airgun leaning against the wall. As well as, damage to the side of the door near the doorknob. It looked as though someone had broken through, yet it didn't come up. Unless I missed it.. :/

 

[BritsKate]

Well, I'd really like to know out of sheer curiosity. I pondered OP's version myself and didn't just assume he was guilty. I also kept from reading all the speculation about this murder in the weeks following 2/14/13 (mainly because I find speculation before the trial begins and evidence is presented a waste of time).



But after hearing OP's testimony, Nel's aggressive style aside, I was floored. In fact, I didn't even step foot on here until my gut began nudging me into the "absolutely guilty" camp (and I wanted to join the discussion). It was OP's testimony that did it, not the earwitnesses or any of the other evidence. It was OP and the many lies he's told. Nel should not have called him a liar in the witness box and deserved the admonishing by the judge, but he really did say the very thing I was thinking and still do think.



Perhaps others don't see the lies as lies? And, of course, I've seen a lot of blame thrown Nel's way, as if he can make someone lie under oath. It's just not in my personality to buy that.

Exactly. There are some who just cannot accept how evil, cruel and deceptive someone can be - despite all evidence to the contrary. I like to think they balance out pessimistic cynics like yours truly.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[liesbeth]

Oh so add to all of this maybe fact that Reeva's falling. HOW DID OSCAR AIM SO WELL WITHOUT SEEING??

No, I think there was already a small crack in the door from when he tried to get the door open by hitting it with bat. Or maybe just to vent his anger, he just had to hit something. Then he got frustrated, discarded that idea, and went for the gun.

JMO.

It would also explain why Burger and Johnson heard the intensity and fear in the woman's screams escalate right before the last set of sounds.

Another thing it explains is the defense pathologist's testimony that she would not have had time (if the shots were rapid) to lift her arms in a protective way.

 

[minor4th]

Well, I'd really like to know out of sheer curiosity. I pondered OP's version myself and didn't just assume he was guilty. I also kept from reading all the speculation about this murder in the weeks following 2/14/13 (mainly because I find speculation before the trial begins and evidence is presented a waste of time).

But after hearing OP's testimony, Nel's aggressive style aside, I was floored. In fact, I didn't even step foot on here until my gut began nudging me into the "absolutely guilty" camp (and I wanted to join the discussion). It was OP's testimony that did it, not the earwitnesses or any of the other evidence. It was OP and the many lies he's told. Nel should not have called him a liar in the witness box and deserved the admonishing by the judge, but he really did say the very thing I was thinking and still do think.

Perhaps others don't see the lies as lies? And, of course, I've seen a lot of blame thrown Nel's way, as if he can make someone lie under oath. It's just not in my personality to buy that.

OP's testimony is what has given me the most doubt, and not the ear witnesses. I still don't think the state has proved premeditation though. And I'm not sure if this is because they can't because Oscar's version is basically true (mistaken intruder) or because they did a sloppy job with the investigation and didn't do testing they should have.

 

[aa9511]

Oh dear. Witness has just contradicted OP's version of where the mag rack was. He agreed with Nel, but now Nel's asking him, 'Is the defendent wrong?'

Witness squirming...wants to demonstrate, not answer yes or no.

Roux's up to save his witness. Judge agrees.

Who is doing the loud whispering again?

Can someone please tell me again where is Nel saying the mag rack was, and where did Oscar say the mag rack was?

TIA.

 

[james83]

So how come the defence have been doing tests in the last week having had so long to get that sorted, surely they are not tailoring the evidence?.

 

[steveml]

I've been thinking all day about Dixon's testimony. The casual approach to reports, when he was going to face Nel, was a mistake. Even if he didn't know what was coming himself, Roux should have, and should have warned him to be thoroughly prepared.

But, I do think now, if he had just been used as a defence consultant in the background, he could have helped much more.

For example; the mag rack. I don't recall any prosecution experts mentioning the rectangular rack feet marks in the blood pool. One by the toilet showed a white mark in a thick pool - so maybe indicating a foot already there, and blood congealed around it?

The other foot mark seemed to be made in blood, by the wall, (where the mag rack was photographed in the first crime scene photo, and Oscar disputes it was ever there when he shot Reeva).

So perhaps that could indicate the mag was somewhere else, and was moved beside the wall when blood had already been spilled and got on the bottom of the foot?

Armed with that tip from Dixon,Roux might have just been better off putting that to state experts in his cross; 'You never noticed the mark in the blood?'. a la Nel?

It might have been more powerful coming from him, than Dixon?

During the sound experiments too, Dixon mentioned someone mistook the bat sounds for gunshots and told him off, thinking he had started firing without permission. So it's made me think the sounds can be similar, and I don't understand why that has come across so poorly?

By the way - I have no illusions. Nel would make mincemeat of my ideas if I was on the stand in front of him. By the time I got to the end of this, I wasn't even sure myself what I was trying to say in the beginning!

I'm in total agreement with the consultant role rather than expert witness. It's far more convincing if a witness displays confidence and belief in their knowledge when on the stand.

I often got the impression that when he didn't know something he continued without a purpose, until eventually he became almost apologetic because of his lack of expertise.

 

[G.bng]

I can see where Nel's coming from, although Dixon never said it was stand-in for Oscar. I thought it was just a general observation at the time to show the difference between a standing person vs a kneeling person.

To be fair, it's not much more different than the curtain being held back to view OP's house in the witnesses photograph. That also wasn't a true representation

Both PT and DT use their own 'little tricks'.

Sorry ST but I don't think if you want "to be fair" as you say that you can compare an independent lay witness trying to do their civic duty as best they can with a professional paid to give testimony for a defence (unless you want to imbue Mrs Stipp with some kind of psychopathic personality). That is simply not a fair comparison.

And sorry again, but for the photo you are referring to the curtain had to be held back to take a picture of OP's window because the camera was not taking the picture from what would have been Mrs Stipp's view but from around a metre above and around a metre back from where she would have been lying down or sitting up in bed. A low position from which she would have had a very good view under and through the gap created by the ties while the camera being high up was "looking" slightly down from above. A "photo deception" as Roux now calls them having already been picked up on one.

 

[soozieqtips]

It doesn't begin and end there. You should always use additional evidence to strengthen a claim, if at all possible. This is exactly why the photographers were in the Stipps house.

It'll be interesting to see reaction if a close neighbour appears on the witness stand and testifies to hearing OP scream at the times when Reeva was supposed to be screaming.

Can I trust they'll have everyone's support?

Maybe ask again if a close neighbour does testify to that. I doubt very much it will happen.

 

[Julian]

First post from sunny (believe it or not!) Scotland:

(...)
But could he be convicted of murder even if the Judges were to somehow believe there is a reasonable doubt as to whether Oscar knew Reeva was behind that door?
He knew someone was.

Yes, he could. That is: murder, not culpable homicide. However, it wouldn't be premeditated murder, which is what the prosecution is arguing.

 

[minor4th]

Maybe because the bat noise came first?

I don't think that is possible. So he had on his prostheses while whacking the door and breaking it through .. and then took off his legs and shot through the broken door 15 minutes later.

Oh but wait - at least one shot happened before the bat broke through the door. So how could the bat noises be first and the gunshots be later? Serious question - I am really not following how this can even be possible.

 

[steveml]

BBM - that's incorrect. It was 20cm.

"Dixon admitted using a man on his knees who was 20cm shorter than the double amputee athlete on his stumps. "It is something I omitted," Dixon conceded. "I overlooked it at the time."

All that's missing is "I didn't have time to think".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/17/pistorius-expert-witness-joking-reputation-destroyed

Sorry, my typo. I did say the length of my hand, which is approx 20cm (10cm when I was an infant).

 

[TipDog]

OP's testimony is what has given me the most doubt, and not the ear witnesses. I still don't think the state has proved premeditation though. And I'm not sure if this is because they can't because Oscar's version is basically true (mistaken intruder) or because they did a sloppy job with the investigation and didn't do testing they should have.

BIB

I would say the latter if you believe the PT has blown it. I'm not in agreement, but I do understand why someone else may need more than I need to believe OP did this intentionally. Of course, the ONLY person at the moment who matters when it comes to believing if he is guilty of murder or CH is Judge Masipa.

But I think we can all agree on CH, yes? Well, unless someone on here truly believes OP's testimony about firing the gun involuntarily.

 

[james83]

I don't think that is possible. So he had on his prostheses while whacking the door and breaking it through .. and then took off his legs and shot through the broken door 15 minutes later.

Oh but wait - at least one shot happened before the bat broke through the door. So how could the bat noises be first and the gunshots be later? Serious question - I am really not following how this can even be possible.

If Colonel Vermeulen is right about the marks being consistent with O.P on his stumps, then is it not possible that he hit the door with the bat first, then fired the gun and then pried the door open on his prosthesis?.
Explains what the Stipp's heard first if the state are correct.

 

[james83]

I don't think that is possible. So he had on his prostheses while whacking the door and breaking it through .. and then took off his legs and shot through the broken door 15 minutes later.

Oh but wait - at least one shot happened before the bat broke through the door. So how could the bat noises be first and the gunshots be later? Serious question - I am really not following how this can even be possible.

By the way are you confident it was a 15 minute gap?, i'm still a bit sketchy on how long it actually was.