Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

[steveml]

Please, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think:

If a person is standing in front of the toilet bowl, face on:

OP says his housekeeper always put it to the left, against the wall.

Nel says the rack was to the right, against the wall, and Reeva was half sitting on it when she was shot in the head, and her head then dropped forward onto the toilet bowl.

I only caught OP saying Reeva was not sitting on it and it wasn't on the right when he found her - I don't recall him actually saying if it was on the left in the housekeeper's position or where it was, when he got Reeva out. Maybe he didn't recall?

I wonder if it is in reaching distance from the toilet if it's over to the right.

Toilets aren't my strongest point, however I would expect the idea is that you can reach for some reading material without having to leave the comfort of the seat.

Apologies if too much information.

 

[minor4th]

No you are putting words into my mouth, cricket bat, all 4 gunshots, door pried open.

And regarding Oscar, no i don't, i believe someone could hear a noise in there bathroom ask there partner if they heard it not get a reply and put 2 and 2 together.

Except the shots had to have happened before at least one of the cricket bat hits.

So it would have to be gunshot, 3 cricket bat hits, then three more gunshots, and then he pried the door open and screamed and cried. That does not make sense and it's not the state's evidence or theory. It is more unbelievable than Oscar thinking there was an intruder in the bathroom.

 

[zwiebel]

The punishments are very harsh.

It would be interesting to know how often they prosecute though as there are meant to be more illegal firearms in possession than there are legal ones.

That's a lot considering there are approx. 6 million civilian guns in SA.

Now I am wondering - if OP's dad had come forward and said the ammo in the safe was his, even if he owned it legally, leaving it at OP's to store is not legal, I think?

So maybe he could have faced a jail term himself, if he had corroborated OP's account that the ammo was his?

 

[liesbeth]

Re BBM

Oh no. Now I am absolutely worried. People in SA love him. There is definite bias to find him not guilty and the judge knows this.

There was a lady that cheered as OP entered court this morning.

I knew a lot of people liked him but in SA he is most likely their HERO.
This is very scary and I think it will influence the judges decision in this case.

I am leaning towards what Minor is thinking . That maybe just the gun charges or something may be the end result of his punishment.

I no longer have faith that we will get a just decision because of his popularity in SA.

BBM. I'm from S.A. and this is not true. There are a number of South Africans who want O.P. to get off because they pity him. There are also few who believe him to be innocent. But he is not, by any means, most South Africans' hero. That would be Nelson Mandela.

 

[Really?]

Nothing scientific really. I imagined that if the person was raised in height by the length of my hand, I would still not be able to see the torso and head in the top window.

sorry if this have been corrected already.

sure....I agree you wouldn't see much......from street level....boom

 

[Mr Fossil]

The part that doesn't quite work for me is that Reeva has the cricket bat to defend herself, yet leaves it outside the toilet door as an ideal weapon for OP.
If she was clued up enough to pick the bat up, I'm sure she'd keep hold of it.

Also, if OP can see Reeva, but decides to shoot her through the door instead, this is a preplanned move and not a spontaneous reaction after chasing someone.
I don't think anyone would have the capacity to orchestrate such a ploy in an intense situation like that.

Still working on this. She picks up the bat at the bedroom door as a naturally defensive reaction. I think she then drops the cricket bat whilst opening the bathroom window. Perhaps she recalled that there had been a ladder there but finds it isn't there any longer (it's laying on the ground). She doesn't need the bat in the toilet (or forgets it) as she can lock the door. Let's face it, she doesn't really expect to be shot at even if OP is wielding a gun.

I'm now thinking OP doesn't need to see her through the door after the bat strikes. The first shot was to scare her and isn't 'aimed', it's just at the door. He then picks up the bat to get in the toilet because he finds that the door is locked. She is screaming at him (they are screaming at each other). She tells him she is badly hit and is going to phone the police. OP can tell where she is because of where her voice is coming from. He even hears the scrape of the magazine rack as she falls on it. He has completely lost the plot at this stage and can only think he has to stop her calling the police. Three aimed shots follow.

 

[zwiebel]

I wonder if it is in reaching distance from the toilet if it's over to the right.

Toilets aren't my strongest point, however I would expect the idea is that you can reach for some reading material without having to leave the comfort of the seat.

Apologies if too much information.

It seemed to me there was more room on the left (where I think OP said housekeeper stored it) than on the right.

Just too close to the toilet bowl on the right, with the possibility of less than perfect aim and....well, better stop there.

 

[atthelake]

I guess that is true but it would be even worse if he was a hostile witness to the defence case.
Maybe if Dixon had been given a better brief and ALL the full facts before he testified things may not have turned out to be so embarrassing for him.
It seems pretty bad that he was not told that the balcony lights were on and that he didn't know OP's correct height on his stumps .
On the other hand it was extremely unprofessional of him to not put himself at the same height that the witness's was .
I am only a housewife but would have done a better job .
He is either incompetent or willing to maybe bend facts to suit the defence which I would prefer to think is not the case.
Anyone at the top of their profession should not want to risk their reputation.

BBM Remember Alice from the Jodi case :giggle:

 

[steveml]

Now I am wondering - if OP's dad had come forward and said the ammo in the safe was his, even if he owned it legally, leaving it at OP's to store is not legal, I think?

So maybe he could have faced a jail term himself, if he had corroborated OP's account that the ammo was his?

That's an interesting point. I'll try and find out a bit more. My gut feeling is that it would normally be a charge against OP for possession, however I think he said he wasn't there when it was put in his safe. This might create a bit of a legal technicality.

 

[liesbeth]

Except the shots had to have happened before at least one of the cricket bat hits.

So it would have to be gunshot, 3 cricket bat hits, then three more gunshots, and then he pried the door open and screamed and cried. That does not make sense and it's not the state's evidence or theory. It is more unbelievable than Oscar thinking there was an intruder in the bathroom.

minor4th, look at the video again. The crack that runs through bullet hole D was caused by the door breaking open, not from the bat hitting the door? So in no way does there have to be a bat hit after the gunshots.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM Remember Alice from the Jodi case :giggle:

Arghhhh! Do I!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Really?]

Just confused myself with that last post, because OP's team say the mag rack wounded Reeva's back....so it must have been on the right, either way? But I still think OP said at one stage it was always kept on the left??

I believe OP argued that the mag rack was more in the center of the wall facing the door.

 

[Really?]

[/B]

bbm

His subconcious thoughts are coming out there. He probably looked at everything and has an idea of how everything happened (not Oscar's version).

yes !....I said that during his testimony.....if pressed enough in a more interested way than a examining way....he would have rattled out his version.....closest to what actually happened...moo.....I liked when he mentioned the bedroom door......hehe

 

[zwiebel]

I believe OP argued that the mag rack was more in the center of the wall facing the door.

Oh. So it would still be on the right of the toilet bowl.

I am sure I have seen a photograph of the rack on the left though. I think it may have been after the shooting, when the bathroom had been repaired and maybe the housekeeper was no longer looking after the home?

I think it was a photo in a magazine article like People or something....

 

[Really?]

What if....on his stumps, as Vermeulen suggested, he uses the bat to hit the door three times. In the process the door breaks as he (OP, I mean) described in his testimony. The neighbours hear three loud sounds. And lots of bloodcurdling fearful screams.

Then, still on his stumps, he gets his gun and shoots Reeva through the door. The fearful screams stop.

He then goes to the bedroom, puts on his legs and goes back to the toilet to break open the door with hands and/or using the bat as a lever.

It is possible, no?

All this ^ after badgering Reeva for an hour over her coffee w/ex.....and reality show soon to air. moo

 

[james83]

Except the shots had to have happened before at least one of the cricket bat hits.

So it would have to be gunshot, 3 cricket bat hits, then three more gunshots, and then he pried the door open and screamed and cried. That does not make sense and it's not the state's evidence or theory. It is more unbelievable than Oscar thinking there was an intruder in the bathroom.

Not true at all about the gunshot first.
gonna agree to disagree at this point, this could go on forever.

 

[steveml]

It seemed to me there was more room on the left (where I think OP said housekeeper stored it) than on the right.

Just too close to the toilet bowl on the right, with the possibility of less than perfect aim and....well, better stop there.

Ah, my apologies, my response must have sounded a bit odd. I was interpreting it as left and right of the back wall, facing the door.

Yep, the right side of the toilet (facing the toilet) would appear to be the most natural place for the rack, as the left would seem a bit cramped.

 

[Really?]

Oh. So it would still be on the right of the toilet bowl.

I am sure I have seen a photograph of the rack on the left though. I think it may have been after the shooting, when the bathroom had been repaired and maybe the housekeeper was no longer looking after the home?

I think it was a photo in a magazine article like People or something....

Yes, OP said left hand side of toilet (whilst in a seated position).....but more pushed forward centered in the wall facing the door.

 

[soozieqtips]

That could be true to some extent, but I've read a few statements from South Africans who first believe he was guilty and are now certain he's innocent. Why they have changed their mind is because, being South Africans, they understand the context better than non South Africans. They totally get the everyday nature of violence in their country and they often have first hand knowledge of all the emotions people go through when their homes are broken into.


The reason I myself believe he's tellingf the truth is because I live in a country where break ins are common. I've had my home broken into several times over the years, and I totally GET where OP is coming from. What he describes is the same panic that overtakes you when you have reason to believe someone is in your home. This is very hard to explain to someone who has never experienced it.

BBM - and yet millions of women in SA do not get murdered in the toilet when they are taking a pee. And I'm sure their husbands/partners occasionally hear those noises in the toilet without needing to rush and get a gun to kill them.

 

[steveml]

I think we were having another left/right side of the bed moment there, but with the toilet lol.