Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

[molly333]

Two contributions of Dixon
Which innocence's demanding
Bat and gunshot listening
And where OP was standing.

 

[asanque]

It's not pitch black in the bathroom.

If you are scared of an intruder and were armed, why wouldn't you turn the light on?

After you shoot the intruder and back off without checking their status ( and looking for someone), why wouldn't you turn the light on?

Finally, for Reeva, if you knew your partner was awake and you were going to the toilet in a pitch black room, why wouldn't you turn either the bedroom or bathroom light on? (Especially with the Toilet light supposedly broken).

 

[Val1]

Nobody contests there were gunshots but without the demonstration it is hard to believe that hitting a door with a cricket bat could sound similar.

Especially if a sounds expert modified the sounds to sound more similar... ie. enhanced the loudness of the bat strikes and replicated the gunshots to be faster.

 

[Sarahlou]

I find Gerrie to be more 'cat' than 'dog' - except for the moments when he locks on to a witnesses arm and tears their muscles - then he is pure working dog (Rottie, Malinois etc)

I'm going to give you a LONG reply in the morning, and I actually have some interesting info re" putative self defence within SA law - precedent etc, as well as a Ruling, that came out this Monday past funnily enough (it isn't even in the SA court reports yet) in terms of both self defence and putative self defence - but it will be a long 'write' . Roger freaking Dixon has given me the headache from hell this evening.

Two days of that has left me :scared: It's almost midnight here in Cape Town so I'm going to sleep and I promise to write you that post in the morning. Apologies< I would love to do it now - but my post would be awful - a combo of <modsnip> and Roger (yes, that bad):facepalm:

Thank you once more everyone for the wonderful and warm welcome, sleep tight, or have a good day, or have a good evening - depending on where you are in the world - chat tommorrow. :seeya:

Welcome! I've enjoyed your posts, interesting comments about Nel. You sound 'in the know'

 

[molly333]

I think Nel mentioned today that the area where OP indicated he shot from was now common cause (what is agreed). I'd have to check but something rings a bell.

This is from inside the entrance to the bathroom, against the back wall, diagonally towards the toilet.

What do you mean 'common cause'? You mean defense and prosecution agree?

If OP is standing where you indicate:

1) his angle of shot is fixed by where he is standing
2) he was afraid of what was in the toilet
3) that means he didn't know it was Reeva

I'd like to see a picture of this.

 

[aa9511]

I have to still wonder why OP put his socks onto his prosthetics instead of just a pair of shoes.

Because when he came home, he took his shoes off, as many ppl like to do. He kept his socks on, also as many do. He never took his prosthetics off that night.

Jmo.

 

[molly333]

This was quite interesting .. last night's 'round up' on Sky News ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NISEbHjchZA

.. from 17:50 .. Lobo das Neves (law enforcement expert and former detective) talking about how Reeva would've screamed out and how OP would've heard her scream, even through the ringing in his ears.

Really. A 357 Magnum revolver is much louder than a jet engine at takeoff.

Can you hear screaming standing next to a jet engine at takeoff?

http://www.m1911.org/loudness.htm

 

[soozieqtips]

This was quite interesting .. last night's 'round up' on Sky News ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NISEbHjchZA

.. from 17:50 .. Lobo das Neves (law enforcement expert and former detective) talking about how Reeva would've screamed out and how OP would've heard her scream, even through the ringing in his ears.

I saw that yesterday (just about to watch today's one) and yeah, he said OP would still have been able to hear Reeva because he wouldn't have been totally deaf. Think OP has been visiting WS and read the posts about how the shots would have made him deaf??? :floorlaugh:

Funny that in his affidavit, he wasn't deaf after he shot... AND also missing was the 'I screamed like I never heard myself scream before'. Hey, maybe Roger Dixon was here too after he'd finished looking for noises online...

 

[Onlyamum]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...o-different-versions-dont-add-up-9263835.html

A summary from The Independent

 

[asanque]

:seeya:

I saw that yesterday (just about to watch today's one) and yeah, he said OP would still have been able to hear Reeva because he wouldn't have been totally deaf. Think OP has been visiting WS and read the posts about how the shots would have made him deaf??? :floorlaugh:

Funny that in his affidavit, he wasn't deaf after he shot... AND also missing was the 'I screamed like I never heard myself scream before'. Hey, maybe Roger Dixon was here too after he'd finished looking for noises online...

Let's say OP was in fear for his life and shot 4 times at the intruder. He testified he didn't hear any screams.

How can he be sure the intruder is no longer a threat (he could have missed or only caused a minor injury)? Why did his fear go away?

He was so scared that he didn't even check but instead fumbled his way in the dark and turned backward away from a threat that could still be there?

It makes no sense.

The reason he didn't check right away was because he heard the screams stop.

 

[soozieqtips]

Really. A 357 Magnum revolver is much louder than a jet engine at takeoff.

Can you hear screaming standing next to a jet engine at takeoff?

http://www.m1911.org/loudness.htm

How long do you think he was deafened for?

 

[TipDog]

What do you mean 'common cause'? You mean defense and prosecution agree?

If OP is standing where you indicate:

1) his angle of shot is fixed by where he is standing
2) he was afraid of what was in the toilet
3) that means he didn't know it was Reeva

I'd like to see a picture of this.

BIB

How does where he stood support or prove OP's fear? Irrational fear at that, if you will recall. The door was closed, no target was identified, no weapon visible - there was no perceivable threat.

Also, OP knew how to use a gun very well. He practiced at the gun range on watermelons, shot out of sunroofs, at the floors in restaurants and at injured dogs. Perhaps after yelling at RS to GTFO, his rage boiled over and he simply shot from that angle (if he can claim he shot involuntarily then I think it's fair to assume that may mean in blind, murderous rage). But nothing about his shooting at the door from closer to the entrance of the bathroom tells me that he didn't know it was Reeva or that he was fearful of what was in the toilet closet. Unless by fearful, you mean fearful of how much she could destroy him should she tell police or anybody about what had already transpired that morning.

Lastly, let's not forget that OP was being sued by (forgot her name) for alleged leg injuries sustained at his home when he slammed a door directly in front of her. Who's to say that wasn't another match to his fuse? Perhaps, in his mind, he wasn't going to go through another lawsuit with another b*** who was killing his vibe.

/pure conjecture

 

[molly333]

How long do you think he was deafened for?

Threshold of pain is 120 decibels.

357 magnum is 164 decibels.

This is not a linear scale.

I would say 'deaf' for a while afterwards.

Shot is inside and echoing also.

 

[jay-jay]

Really. A 357 Magnum revolver is much louder than a jet engine at takeoff.

Can you hear screaming standing next to a jet engine at takeoff?

http://www.m1911.org/loudness.htm

This guy sounds like he knows his stuff .. and he has no reason to lie, either.

 

[Mr Ron]

What do you mean 'common cause'? You mean defense and prosecution agree?

If OP is standing where you indicate:

1) his angle of shot is fixed by where he is standing
2) he was afraid of what was in the toilet
3) that means he didn't know it was Reeva

I'd like to see a picture of this.

A definite possibility, and very probably a factor in his favour but not necessarily so.

Is there a diagram indicating the probable paths of the bullets across the bathroom?

This is entirely speculation buy I can imagine a scenario whereby Pistorius storms off to his room, grabs his gun, storms back to the bathroom and shoots as soon as he get there. This would leave him in pretty much the same position as a cowering Pistorius shooting blindly but with reasonable accuracy.

Edit - it is also the direction from which Oscar can fire at or into the majority of the toilet.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

This was quite interesting .. last night's 'round up' on Sky News ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NISEbHjchZA

.. from 17:50 .. Lobo das Neves (law enforcement expert and former detective) talking about how Reeva would've screamed out and how OP would've heard her scream, even through the ringing in his ears.

That's interesting
I have mentioned this once before and I know it is not from a gun shot but I have had bouts of severe tinnitus caused by vertigo so bad that I could not walk in a straight line and had loud ringing in my ears 24/7
During all of this I could still hear everything anyone said to me so I do find it very hard to believe that he could not have heard Reeva scream .
In any event the only excuse he has for Reeva not replying to him was because he believes she was scared so then why would she be moving around .
He says he heard wood moving and now believes it must have been Reeva knocking the magazine rack ,why would she do that ? She would be frozen on the spot and if she was near the door she wouldn't have knocked the magazine rack.
For these reasons I choose to believe the witnesses that have already testified Reeva was screaming unless the defence provide some credible totally independent witnesses to the contrary I have to think he knew Reeva was in there and shot deliberately .

 

[molly333]

BIB

How does where he stood support or prove OP's fear? Irrational fear at that, if you will recall. The door was closed, no target was identified, no weapon visible - there was no perceivable threat.

Also, OP knew how to use a gun very well. He practiced at the gun range on watermelons, shot out of sunroofs, at the floors in restaurants and at injured dogs. Perhaps after yelling at RS to GTFO, his rage boiled over and he simply shot from that angle (if he can claim he shot involuntarily then I think it's fair to assume that may mean in blind, murderous rage). But nothing about his shooting at the door from closer to the entrance of the bathroom tells me that he didn't know it was Reeva or that he was fearful of what was in the toilet closet. Unless by fearful, you mean fearful of how much she could destroy him should she tell police or anybody about what had already transpired that morning.

Lastly, let's not forget that OP was being sued by (forgot her name) for alleged leg injuries sustained at his home when he slammed a door directly in front of her. Who's to say that wasn't another match to his fuse? Perhaps, in his mind, he wasn't going to go through another lawsuit with another b*** who was killing his vibe.

/pure conjecture

This confuses me because remember Nel saying to Oscar---she was standing facing the door and you were standing in front of her talking to her.

That would make sense if it was premeditated. He would go stand in front of the door and scream at her through the door, finally shoot directly into the door from the front, at whatever angle he pleases.

This position of OP negates that scene. It also shows he is staying as far away from the door as possible so he himself cannot be shot by the person inside the closet while he's standing there.

 

[jay-jay]

:seeya:

Let's say OP was in fear for his life and shot 4 times at the intruder. He testified he didn't hear any screams.

How can he be sure the intruder is no longer a threat (he could have missed or only caused a minor injury)? Why did his fear go away?

He was so scared that he didn't even check but instead fumbled his way in the dark and turned backward away from a threat that could still be there?

It makes no sense.

The reason he didn't check right away was because he heard the screams stop.

Yup, and more to the point, he heard Reeva's screams stop.

Like Nel said, how could he have been so certain at the time there was no further threat from another intruder outside the window on the ladder (the one which OP believed his 'intruder' in the toilet had entered the bathroom by). After all, OP does himself keep talking about an intruder or 'intruders' plural.

 

[soozieqtips]

:seeya:

Let's say OP was in fear for his life and shot 4 times at the intruder. He testified he didn't hear any screams.

How can he be sure the intruder is no longer a threat? Why did his fear go away?

He was so scared that he didn't even check but instead fumbled his way in the dark and turned backward away from a that that could still be there?

It makes no sense.

The reason he didn't check right away was because he heard the screams stop.

None of his story/stories make sense. How about after the murder when he never even thought of asking a member of his family to contact Reeva's parents to let them know what happened. He was too busy doing other things, and it was left to the police to tell Reeva's mother that Reeva was dead - hours after she'd been murdered. Based on his actions after he murdered Reeva, he suddenly became clear headed. He had items removed from his safe and got his phone squirreled away somewhere. And remember either Clarice Stander (or her mother) said something about hoping to keep it out of the media. Isn't that OP's favourite phrase?

 

[molly333]

A definite possibility, and very probably a factor in his favour but not necessarily so.

Is there a diagram indicating the probable paths of the bullets across the bathroom?

This is entirely speculation buy I can imagine a scenario whereby Pistorius storms off to his room, grabs his gun, storms back to the bathroom and shoots as soon as he get there. This would leave him in pretty much the same position as a cowering Pistorius shooting blindly but with reasonable accuracy.

Your imagined scenario doesn't work for me because if he is going to deliberately shoot her, he does not want to miss.

Deliberate shooting--stand in front of the closet, get her to talk, shoot in direction of her voice.