Trial Discussion Thread #29

[molly333]

What? Where do you think this trial will be judged? Again have you read the charging documents..

I mean it might be some flavor of culpable homicide [the Judge can find him guilty of this and give him no jail time] but I don't feel it is premeditated murder of Reeva.

 

[whiterum]

Given he called Stander before the ambulance (and did not call the police), I'd take anything OP says with a grain of salt.

Why would he say he phoned Stander to help lift Reeva even before Netcare had told him to take her to the nearest hospital. Why what was his original intention why did he want her lifted at that point.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

It was Dr Stipp, the radiologist, not the Burgers. And Stipp came to that conclusion because of the nature of the screaming. He heard a female screaming, oh, and a male screaming as well - and at one point, he heard male and female voices at the same time. DT hasn't yet shown evidence that OP screams like a woman (even though Roux assured the court he would provide evidence). Aside from that, I don't suppose Stipp's first thought was that OP was murdering his g/friend, and so probably did think it was intruders. Doesn't mean they were paranoid about home security just because they didn't jump to the conclusion that a famous athlete was in the middle of killing his g/friend.

Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth but saying it better than I would have!

 

[jassy writer]

The home is far from a multi-million dollar property. Multi-million refers to SA rand, the house is about £277K in my currency (GBP)

To be fair, its value may have reduced slightly in recent months...!

:floorlaugh:

 

[turaj]

I remember one of the witnesses [I think it was the Johnsons] quickly came to the conclusion that it was a home invasion and the family was being murdered and they were next.

Wherever did they come up with that conclusion if it were not a reasonable one given the nature of crime in SA?

Oscar was not the only one who was paranoid.

I'm not sure if it was Johnson but he quickly came to the conclusion that it was a "domestic dispute" upon returning and acted like that was nothing and went back to sleep.

Believe me I know that gun violence and break ins are common in SA but I feel OP is leaning way too much on that to bolster his case.

 

[Hatfield]

Good point. Acting like someone holding a live grenade with finger about to pull the pin, right in front of the judge, doesn't seem like the wisest way to convince her to let him go free.

I agree. The judge is getting annoyed at his antics. Not good to piss off the judge.

How does the process of deliberations go in SA. Does the judge meet with anyone during that process or is she by herself in chambers?

Does it take many days for her to deliberate or is there a time limit?

 

[Viper]

That might be something in SA law, but I don't think it is pre-meditated murder of Reeva.

That's fine. So in your opinion, and using the facts of the case:

1) What would constitute Premeditation? And how is the fact that OP fired 4 bullets at "a door" behind which he believed a human being was standing. And the WC was tiny with hard tiles on the walls and floor, OP testified that he was aware of the danger of ricocheting bullets.

2) What would constitute simple Murder? This is the intentional killing of a human being. If that person is a burglar that does not matter, under SA Law even burglars are entitled to a right to life, they cannot be murdered unless you see them coming at you with a weapon intending to kill you or cause you great bodily harm.

Perhaps it is time to start using facts in the argument instead of just saying, "I believe what OP said it the truth."

 

[Carmelita]

I haven't labelled anyone. I made a generalisation that there are OP supporters here, and that's correct - there are.

I haven't seen any Oscar supporters here. I have read a few posters that believe that the legal burden of proof, without a reasonable doubt, of premeditated murder has not been demonstrated through evidence or by the prosecution as of yet.

 

[steveml]

And this is why I think he should have admitted to the Tasha incident. Between that and the other inconsistencies his credibility is shot.

Absolutely. I don't see the point in OP pleading not-guilty.

However, the state hasn't claimed that OP is probably guilty of previous offenses and therefore he would probably be guilty of killing Reeva. The charges are separate

You're entitled to use the additional information brought by the introduction of these charges as you see fit.

 

[molly333]

It was Dr Stipp, the radiologist, not the Burgers. And Stipp came to that conclusion because of the nature of the screaming. He heard a female screaming, oh, and a male screaming as well - and at one point, he heard male and female voices at the same time. DT hasn't yet shown evidence that OP screams like a woman (even though Roux assured the court he would provide evidence). Aside from that, I don't suppose Stipp's first thought was that OP was murdering his g/friend, and so probably did think it was intruders. Doesn't mean they were paranoid about home security just because they didn't jump to the conclusion that a famous athlete was in the middle of killing his g/friend.

Yeah. There was another witness too who thought it was a home invasion and was surprised to learn the next day it was, in his words, 'domestic violence.'

One of these witnesses was afraid they were going to be next, that is, the home invaders were coming to their house next.

Home invasion is a very rare and relatively new crime here, so people don't tend to worry about it. Burglars want to break in when you are not home and don't want confrontation with the home owner.

I can't think of anything more terrifying than home invasion, myself.

 

[Karmady]

I remember one of the witnesses [I think it was the Johnsons] quickly came to the conclusion that it was a home invasion and the family was being murdered and they were next.

Wherever did they come up with that conclusion if it were not a reasonable one given the nature of crime in SA?

Oscar was not the only one who was paranoid.

Yes, I watched a link someone posted and was surprised to learn about how rampant crime is in SA and the extent of the security measures in that neighborhood and many others, apparently. I can't believe people live like that, actually. I also learned that Reeva and her mother had been the victims of a home invasion and that it traumatized her quite alot. So those things, together, kind of changed my perspective on how one might be expected to behave in context.

 

[Really?]

Surprising, especially if some of those guns go off without touching the trigger:floorlaugh:

Yes !!....that is correct....hhhmmmm....so he knowingly held onto that gun that had just shot dead his beloved Reeva...... the gun that shoots on its own....instead of being repulsed by it and discarding it....he carries it about while wildly racing around.

:floorlaugh:

 

[Viper]

I agree. The judge is getting annoyed at his antics. Not good to piss off the judge.

How does the process of deliberations go in SA. Does the judge meet with anyone during that process or is she by herself in chambers?

Does it take many days for her to deliberate or is there a time limit?

I and some others expect that she will rule immediately on the gun charges, likely the same day. It may take weeks for her verdict on the murder charge, but OP will be in custody and working his way through introduction in to the state prison in Pretoria.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

Absolutely. I don't see the point in OP pleading not-guilty.

However, the state hasn't claimed that OP is probably guilty of previous offenses and therefore he would probably be guilty of killing Reeva. The charges are separate

You're entitled to use the additional information brought by the introduction of these charges as you see fit.

The point was his defense relies on his version...if the judge believes he is not truthful based on evidence provided then bye bye oscar:jail:

 

[Emz73]

http:// http://criminallawza.net/2014/04/08/the-perplexing-problem-of-proof/"]http:// http://criminallawza.net/

Criminal law professor James Grant sent me this today, when I asked if the defence could discredit the 3.00 am bangs as not the bat/shots then would the screaming be discredited too. How would they manage it.

He said its mainly the screaming that's fatal to Oscars version. Not the bat/gun sounds etc etc

I haven't read it yet, bit over my head.

If it doesnt work then I guess Google it. I'm not good as this!

 

[Really?]

I agree that it is doubtful that one of them would have responded in the way Oscar did, but, I come to a different conclusion, which is Oscar's response to a perceived intruder is evidence of Oscars paranoia.

did OP say he was fearful.......he is a liar...

 

[shane13]

good golly......

OP stated he thought an intruder was behind the door...and shot at door (ok, well the gun shot the door)......gun went off knowing a person was behind the door....pre-med.....boom

But he is innocent because "I pointed my gun at the door...I did not aim at the door...Milady"

 

[turaj]

I and some others expect that she will rule immediately on the gun charges, likely the same day. It may take weeks for her verdict on the murder charge, but OP will be in custody and working his way through introduction in to the state prison in Pretoria.

Good...at least he will be locked up. I was wondering how long it will take. I will be gone for what probably will be the final verdict and will have to wait to see his face.

 

[steveml]

If we believe Dr Stipp is a credible witness, then we must apply the same belief to his testimony

When Dr Stipp was asked if he believed OP wanted Reeva to live, he replied, 'He definitely wanted her to live, yes'.

 

[molly333]

http:// http://criminallawza.net/2014/04/08/the-perplexing-problem-of-proof/"]http:// http://criminallawza.net/

Criminal law professor James Grant sent me this today, when I asked if the defence could discredit the 3.00 am bangs as not the bat/shots then would the screaming be discredited too. How would they manage it.

He said its mainly the screaming that's fatal to Oscars version. Not the bat/gun sounds etc etc

I haven't read it yet, bit over my head.

If it doesnt work then I guess Google it. I'm not good as this!

I agree with him, that the screaming would be fatal to Oscar's case--but only if the prosecutor could prove that was Reeva screaming.

In my opinion, he can't.